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Locally delivered Vs Inported


Nicco

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Not to cause a stir but I have been thinking more about the whole imported discussion, and the points raised all look at it from an Australian delivered perspective, why don't we flip it the other way?

Australia's car market is minuscule, if fact our economy in it's entirety based on population is small when you base it against UK, US etc. So ultimately from an Australian delivered perspective it's probably .02% impact on porches global production. Hence the demand for other region cars would be higher based on population and capacity produced?  Does someone in the US take any real notice if a car is Aus delivered? I doubt it, yet we seem to put so much emphasis on Aust delivered cars even though they are off the same production line albeit with variances to meet local regs. I certainly know in the UK as long as the cars got a clean history no one cares where it's from, in fact it's common to catch a 50 pound easy jet flight to Germany to pick up a new car, and drive it back to the UK. I used to steer away from non aus delivered cars, but as everything these days has become more global, and sourcing internationally is the norm, I don't think it really matters where the car comes from as long as it ticks all the boxes. Ultimately brands have always taken advantage of Australia due to its remoteness, and ultimately we always seem to cop a premium because companies are getting away with it, so ultimately an Aus delivered car is at a premium, because you paid a premium to start with, even though its the same car someone in the UK is driving for half the price.....are we in our own little bubble in Aus?

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Finally, someone making sense.

Without sounding disrespectful, this whole 'personally imported cars are worth less' view is very "Australian'. Maybe it has something to do with being a somewhat remote country. In the UK, people buy, sell, trade and swap cars from all over Europe. LHD cars can fetch as much as RHD cars and people don't really care. The reality is all Porsches are imported. And an unknown history in Australia is no better than an unknown history anywhere else.

I'd put my imported car up against any other equivalent Aus delivered Porsche for a condition report showdown, no worries.

 

 

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Ultimately brands have always taken advantage of Australia due to its remoteness, and ultimately we always seem to cop a premium because companies are getting away with it, so ultimately an Aus delivered car is at a premium, because you paid a premium to start with, even though its the same car someone in the UK is driving for half the price.....are we in our own little bubble in Aus?

While I agree with so much of what you said, I really question whether the value of a "collectable" car is in any way determined by how much it was when it was new. I think not, but your comment is the closest I have ever seen to some sort of rational justification for the Aus premium. But consider the following scenario.

2 RHD cars come off the Porsche production line. One goes on a transporter to the docks, and hops on a ship to the UK. The very next car, built to an identical spec, goes to the same dock but gets on a ship to Australia. Both cars are bought by collectors who store them in perfect conditions, never driving them on the road but doing enough to keep them perfect. 30 years later, the Brit moves to Oz and brings his car with him. On arrival, both cars are in identical condition, have done identical mileage and have been shipped exactly the same distance. When parked next to each other, the only way to tell them apart is to check the chassis number. What are they worth, relative to each other? There are many around who will say that the car that was registered in Australia when new is worth, say, 25% more. Others say the cars are identical in every way, so why would one be worth more than the other.

Although I will never understand it, I have come to accept that some people believe there value in the fact the first owner was here in Oz. As with so many things, that are "matters of the heart", there is no logic and there doesn't need to be. Clearly there is some feelgood factor that maybe me, as an "outsider" will never understand

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While I agree with so much of what you said, I really question whether the value of a "collectable" car is in any way determined by how much it was when it was new. I think not, but your comment is the closest I have ever seen to some sort of rational justification for the Aus premium. But consider the following scenario.

2 RHD cars come off the Porsche production line. One goes on a transporter to the docks, and hops on a ship to the UK. The very next car, built to an identical spec, goes to the same dock but gets on a ship to Australia. Both cars are bought by collectors who store them in perfect conditions, never driving them on the road but doing enough to keep them perfect. 30 years later, the Brit moves to Oz and brings his car with him. On arrival, both cars are in identical condition, have done identical mileage and have been shipped exactly the same distance. When parked next to each other, the only way to tell them apart is to check the chassis number. What are they worth, relative to each other? There are many around who will say that the car that was registered in Australia when new is worth, say, 25% more. Others say the cars are identical in every way, so why would one be worth more than the other.

Although I will never understand it, I have come to accept that some people believe there value in the fact the first owner was here in Oz. As with so many things, that are "matters of the heart", there is no logic and there doesn't need to be. Clearly there is some feelgood factor that maybe me, as an "outsider" will never understand

Alternatively, say 40 years ago they both weren't stored in perfect conditions and driven as intended by their owners as buyers of new 911's do now. Fast forward and the once both identical cars with identical mileage will have far from identical body condition. 

No conspiracy, just a factor of how climatic conditions can impact pre galvanised (and galvanised) car bodies. Whilst this isn't as much of a real concern with more modern cars it's a reality for the older cars. That's the root of the stigma and people are happy to pay a premium for the privilege. 

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i have a UK import E9 CSi. i have replaced the wheel wells and floor pan.

if i had the option for an aus delivered one, i would have bought that instead, and saved myself from at least half of the above work.

anyone who says they don't understand the difference in price has never been under a poorly converted HK import with fuses stuck in the wiring loom, or jap import with rust bubbles between the welded-on wide body and the chassis that are only evident once you start digging with a screw driver.
yes aus cars can be dogs as well; but the stigma comes from a kernel of truth, as hugh points out.

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Alternatively, say 40 years ago they both weren't stored in perfect conditions and driven as intended by their owners as buyers of new 911's do now. Fast forward and the once both identical cars with identical mileage will have far from identical body condition. 

No conspiracy, just a factor of how climatic conditions can impact pre galvanised (and galvanised) car bodies. Whilst this isn't as much of a real concern with more modern cars it's a reality for the older cars. That's the root of the stigma and people are happy to pay a premium for the privilege. 

Hugh

That's fine, but then  you are buying on condition, which is how it should be. To suggest that because a car is an import it is going to be in worse condition is simply wrong. If your hypothesis is correct, why would a car from South Africa, that has never seen cold weather, be worth less? Or is a car that has lived in Jinderbyne worth less than a car that has lived in Alice Springs? 

I personally don't think it is to do with a perception that an import will be in worse condition. I believe that there is something deep in Australian Psyche about buying "Australian" vs buying imported goods. Whether it is due to years of marketing or simply a strong sense of national pride, you see it in all areas of life. Look at the language that is used - Australian delivered vs import. FFS! They are all imports. No Porsche is made in Australia. IMO, it is all about the stigma of imports being so ingrained that it filters through into less rational markets, such as identical cars.

The other thing that is inexplicable is how it effects prices. Porsches really are a global market and we see them being traded from one country to the next. As such, you would ordinarily expect Australian prices to reflect world prices and for imports to sell for a discount, making it not worth bringing them into the country. After all, a perfect Porsche in one country is still a perfect Porsche in another and a rust bucket is a rust bucket wherever it is. But no, Australian cars are valued at a significant premium to the rest of the world market. It leads to some seriously stupid situations. For instance, take the 964 RS (Tom, if you are reading this, did you know I used to own one:P). From what I have been told, the record price paid for one of these is jointly held by a car sold to a collector in the Middle east, that had done just on 2000kms, and was verified as having everything totally original and was in perfect "as new" condition, with a car that sold here in Oz that had done over 30,000kms and was described as being in good condition with a certain amount of "patina". Crazy!

Even having said all of that, I still accept that the difference is there and rejoice in it because for some, in my view "lucky" people, we can enjoy exactly the same experience for significantly less money.

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@SimonN maybe you should talk to someone at Dutton's or CTS and see if they can give you some clarification as to why this phenomenon exists? They are making the big $$$ by sending our old cars OS, maybe they can give you the answers you need..................

 

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lots of shitbox rusty old Porsches in Australia that were Australian delivered - I remember 15 years ago, someone I knew bought a 930 that was a shocker - to be fair he paid around $15k at the time and we all laughed at him, but the car needed a lot of work - was "Australian Delivered". I wonder where that car is now - Guards Red (of course). 

 

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Hugh

That's fine, but then  you are buying on condition, which is how it should be. To suggest that because a car is an import it is going to be in worse condition is simply wrong. If your hypothesis is correct, why would a car from South Africa, that has never seen cold weather, be worth less? Or is a car that has lived in Jinderbyne worth less than a car that has lived in Alice Springs? 

I personally don't think it is to do with a perception that an import will be in worse condition. I believe that there is something deep in Australian Psyche about buying "Australian" vs buying imported goods. Whether it is due to years of marketing or simply a strong sense of national pride, you see it in all areas of life. Look at the language that is used - Australian delivered vs import. FFS! They are all imports. No Porsche is made in Australia. IMO, it is all about the stigma of imports being so ingrained that it filters through into less rational markets, such as identical cars.

The other thing that is inexplicable is how it effects prices. Porsches really are a global market and we see them being traded from one country to the next. As such, you would ordinarily expect Australian prices to reflect world prices and for imports to sell for a discount, making it not worth bringing them into the country. After all, a perfect Porsche in one country is still a perfect Porsche in another and a rust bucket is a rust bucket wherever it is. But no, Australian cars are valued at a significant premium to the rest of the world market. It leads to some seriously stupid situations. For instance, take the 964 RS (Tom, if you are reading this, did you know I used to own one:P). From what I have been told, the record price paid for one of these is jointly held by a car sold to a collector in the Middle east, that had done just on 2000kms, and was verified as having everything totally original and was in perfect "as new" condition, with a car that sold here in Oz that had done over 30,000kms and was described as being in good condition with a certain amount of "patina". Crazy!

Even having said all of that, I still accept that the difference is there and rejoice in it because for some, in my view "lucky" people, we can enjoy exactly the same experience for significantly less money.

geezzez talk about flogging a dead horse

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Is it just me or is this the kind of thread that will cover no more new ground at page 10 than it did page 1, and all the similar threads before it.  It's obvious how things work, it's not going to change, and seems generally fairly logical and common sense based, but sometimes irrational.

When I sell my UK delivered SC shall I tell the buyer who wants a discount it's not fair, shouldn't be that way, is not logical, they were all the same from the factory etc etc.

Rollseyes.

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@SimonN maybe you should talk to someone at Dutton's or CTS and see if they can give you some clarification as to why this phenomenon exists? They are making the big $$$ by sending our old cars OS, maybe they can give you the answers you need..................

 

I have talked to both of them about it and the answer is exactly the same. There is no logic to it, but that is the way it is and you simply have to accept it. I accept that for the same condition car, there is a price difference. What i cannot accept is the BS reasons given for it. there is a big difference between accepting the quirks of the marketplace and putting up with BS. So many comments imply things that are simply wrong and give those who come on this forum to learn about our great cars the wrong idea. Reading some of this rubbish, you would have thought every import is riddled with rust, has a dodgy, unsubstantiated history, the mileage is wrong and every converted car has been done badly meaning that they should be avoided at all costs.

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 Reading some of this rubbish, you would have thought every import is riddled with rust, has a dodgy, unsubstantiated history, the mileage is wrong and every converted car has been done badly meaning that they should be avoided at all costs.

not all, and likely not even the majority (though experience in selecting my first 911 showed otherwise) but the chances are higher, due to a number of obvious factors that don't need repeating here again.

No stranger to imports, of my three, two of them are imports and RHD conversions to boot lol.

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This topic seems to keep coming up.

Its pretty simple.

the older/more desirable the car, the less it matters.

UK cars all have rust issues, except for that one that was kept in a heated barn and driven only in summer.  Such a unicorn is a rare beast indeed.  Whether the rust is just the exhaust system or deep corrosion like sills is a matter of age and exposure.

The more recently imported, and the newer/less rare the model, the higher the gap between local and import pricing.

An import 997 will be sell cheaper than an equivalent local delivery.  A 356 Carrera will be priced on provenance and condition and original delivery location doesn't really come into it.

As for buying an import, that comes down to the car and the price.  You will pay less but it will be harder to sell.

personally if given the option of two identical cars at the same price I would take the local delivery.  But that never happens so it's always a case of evaluating each car on its merits.

Btw there is a reason all US delivered cars are 'californian'.  Because Californian cars attract a premium for similar reasons that Australian cars do.

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Alternatively, say 40 years ago they both weren't stored in perfect conditions and driven as intended by their owners as buyers of new 911's do now. Fast forward and the once both identical cars with identical mileage will have far from identical body condition. 

No conspiracy, just a factor of how climatic conditions can impact pre galvanised (and galvanised) car bodies. Whilst this isn't as much of a real concern with more modern cars it's a reality for the older cars. That's the root of the stigma and people are happy to pay a premium for the privilege. 

agree Hugh, it's an interesting one, I suppose I was trying to put a twist on it to understand the rationale. It's obvious that climate based cars are a key consideration when purchasing.  I don't get why we put so much emphasis on an Aust delivered car when we are 2 tenths of bugger all from a P global perspective so ultimately are we making it harder for ourselves and our limited footprint?

having experience in sourcing and working for global companies I cannot work out why we pay a premium for potentially an inferior product. For example I know that that Japanese brands from a performance perspective Aust misses out on the good engines, from a Porsche perspective UK cars come standard with a lot more fruit. 

I am purely being philosophical and don't necessarily have a position on the whole debate, I am however coming round to considering and import at some point in my future garage.

would be a good PFA topic for discussion over a few frothies! 

Cheers

JB

 

UK cars all have rust issues, except for that one that was kept in a heated barn and driven only in summer.  Such a unicorn is a rare beast indeed. 

 

I know where that Unicorn lives...?

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UK cars all have rust issues, except for that one that was kept in a heated barn and driven only in summer.  Such a unicorn is a rare beast indeed.  Whether the rust is just the exhaust system or deep corrosion like sills is a matter of age and exposure.

Seriously? That is a generalisation that distorts the true situation and makes my blood boil. (OK, so I am mildly agitated! lol)

Yes, there are some UK cars that are significantly more rusty than the majority of Australian delivered car, but you are implying that there is no rust on Australian cars. My current car has a rusty exhaust, which was fitted here in Oz many years ago. The year my 964RS spent living by the beach at Balmoral did more for corrosion to the small nuts and bolts than was done in all the years in the UK. New parts I had fitted when I first arrived  needed replacing because of corrosion 9 years later, before I sold the car. 

If you had said there was a perception that all UK cars had rust issues, all I could have said was that was an unfair perception, but stating it as fact is too much.

You will pay less but it will be harder to sell.

I fundamentally disagree with you on this. I have followed this for a long time and correctly priced imports sell quicker than Oz delivered cars. Why? I believe it is because there are enough people who want to buy a car at 25-35% discount and who will buy on condition. Of course, if you price the car incorrectly, it won't sell. Funny thing is, people seem to be more tolerant of small imperfections at these lower prices as well. So long as you are prepared to accept that your car is worth 25-35% less, it isn't a problem. When Oz delivered cars go up, so do imports by the same percentage. I am not going to lose out in gains in value because it's an import. 

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Seriously? That is a generalisation that distorts the true situation and makes my blood boil. (OK, so I am mildly agitated! lol)

Yes, there are some UK cars that are significantly more rusty than the majority of Australian delivered car, but you are implying that there is no rust on Australian cars. My current car has a rusty exhaust, which was fitted here in Oz many years ago. The year my 964RS spent living by the beach at Balmoral did more for corrosion to the small nuts and bolts than was done in all the years in the UK. New parts I had fitted when I first arrived  needed replacing because of corrosion 9 years later, before I sold the car. 

Here Here. My UK 997.2 certainly doesn't have any rust or corrosion issues. And if I was selling it today (which I'm not) it would be at market value because the first person to get it checked over (as I did) would realise it's in perfect order, so where it came from is irrelevant.

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this is the stuff people worry about..
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/798211-porsche-approved-rusty-carrera-3-2-a.html

of the 7 imports i looked at before my car, 5 were basket cases. of the 6 local delivered cars, 5 were 'okay' with only one being a basket case. so whilst caution should be taken on any older car, the odds definitely favour the local cars. i'm pretty thorough so have no compunction against buying an import in decent nick after going over it. Of my BMW's, a similar story; aus delivered car has minor rust, the UK car required new floorpan and wheel wells. i have a third one that was aus delivered, with similar rust issues, but it was literally pulled from a wrecking yard to be revived, not sold as an actual car.

my current import '71 911 required a full rewiring, the import 964 was fine but required a new steering rack (the RHD conversion was done well but the shop in the states that did it could not locate a RHD rack. they flipped the LHD rack instead. it gave the impression of a bad conversion job so nobody bought the car until i came along).

my aus delivered car required i put fuel in it. all are modified extensively.

With cars being more expensive in aus since new they tend to be coddled a bit more, being cheaper over seas (UK and US, japan) means many are used in a wider variety of conditions, driven through salt, left out in the weather, raced etc.

Personal imports tend to do ok- however Grey imports are often brought in for track/rally use due to being cheaper and therefore slightly more expendable, and have a harder life, lose paperwork and service history in transit etc. - anyone with a history in jap imports knows how every S15 has only 40,000km on the clock but the seat bolsters are worn, how every GTR is 50,000km on the clock yet the front diff does not engage properly, something which oddly enough happens over 100,000km..

This stigma follows most imports, before even coming to insurance. Getting insurance for a grey import can be a bit trickier unfortunately. Not so much an issue for 911's i find though.

sure any car can have issues (that yellow 912 left to deteriorate on the street in sydney that was discussed a while back, or indeed any car from a coastal town) but there is a history of imports requiring a bit more risk. there's no point crying over it, most buyers will be swayed by condition, but the psyche of imports being more risk is pretty well established and a decently firm basis in fact. I'm equally selective over any older car so it's never been an issue for me.

 

 

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  Lets face it. If someone is selling an imported car for serious coin, buyers will stay away from it until it comes down to a realistic price, then they'll be flooded with offers. Especially with prices as they are now! If the buyers have done their homework with imported cars like I did, they'll know what's worth $X and what isn't good/reasonable value

  I've looked at Aussie cars that are $30k over what I paid for mine, and they have the same imperfections that mine has. I know the seller made good coin out of me, and I have no qualms with that, yet what a lot of people fail to realise is that 'I' was happy to pay the asking price due to my budget not stretching far enough for a Aussie car.

 The debate between imported v Aussie delivered will rage on for eternity with no real 'winners' so to speak, as we all have our opinions and preferences, so my conclusion is to just live and let live and enjoy what you have or can afford. We all own Porsche's,  and that's pretty bloody good I reckon!

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Is it just me or is this the kind of thread that will cover no more new ground at page 10 than it did page 1

You are correct.

 

Seriously? That is a generalisation that distorts the true situation and makes my blood boil. (OK, so I am mildly agitated! lol)

Yes, there are some UK cars that are significantly more rusty than the majority of Australian delivered car, but you are implying that there is no rust on Australian cars.

I agree, I had a UK W463 G Wagen that was rust free, lived in UK for first 7 years of its life and the balance in Vaucluse... it was the living in Vaucluse that diminished its condition. :lol:

 

Anyhow, what happened to buying on condition? That should be the key driver always!

ALL Factors aside:

I think how much weight Aussie delivered has (lets not be in denial, its a thing and a driver) needs to be taken into context too, i.e. are we comparing a commodity type car like an old SC or a later 996 tiptronic? Or are we comparing something that was built in low numbers globally? Like Simons ex RS  

In any case, its arbitrary! It's only the market influencers that drive this non-tangible value

 

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