First P Car - Please recommend a daily driver

[npvpositive]

I'd say Cayman or 997 would be the obvious choices (and the smart choices).  And Pete's right, you'll need to save at least $40k for the coke and hookers.

[1q2w3e4r]

Turbo is the best of the bunch IMO and is at or passed the bottom of the depreciation cycle.  Has a bullet proof engine which Porsche were still using as late as 2011 in their GT cars.

No issue driving it daily if you want, that's why plenty of them have decent km on them

[michel]

@Peter M you're  sounding more n more like the grandad I wish I had 

[vtsyrlin]

22k for an engine rebuild !- welcome to P ownership I suppose. I've been reading about multitude of engine reliability issues but not sure how these stats stack up against overall reliability of the P-branded cars. Usually people who don't have any issues don't post on the forums. The general consensus is that 911 is reliable if properly maintained and generally looked after.

CaCBB - did you realise that the engine needed work when you originally bought your car?

I read that despite doing PPI people still do get burned with the engine issues.

Personally, I am no ex-Russian oligarch with a bucket of cash. I am an IT consultant working 50-70 hour weeks. So my $$ don't fall from the sky. Have a secure underground car park at work but do tend to drive between clients during the week. Need a car that would be comfortable enough for me as a DD and for labrodoodles. (aka 2 kids)

I have a passion for anything automotive, nothing is for show here. Couldn't care less of what any1 thinks. Days of blow and hookers had never taken precedence over days at Phillip Island or Sandown. Swapping bike tyres after every PI ride day is probably more expensive than hookers and blow combined.

 Unfortunately I can't afford 2 P-cars at the moment. Would love an older 911 N/A but leaning towards 997.2. Especially coming from M135i which has every conceivable feature I can think of. 

Mike - I think I am onboard with your way of thinking.- So 997.2 coupe (need 4 seats and don't want targa or soft top). Shall I be looking at 2009 onward?

What options are more desirable to go for ? Which particular models? Carrera S? Are there any special edition 997.2? 

Gents, would love your opinion on this:

https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/_/SSE-AD-4475833

https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/_/SSE-AD-4115061

Do this look genuine enough (fairly low case for the year)? 

If you have a spare moment, could you suggest any others worth looking at? 

Apart from Porsche Center Brighton, are there any other reputable dealers in Melbourne worth visiting?

Thanks gents for helping out here. Much appreciated!

[sleazius]

How old are your kids? If they're boys anything past 10 and they start to struggle to fit in the back of a 911.

997.2 started with MY09. If you can stretch to an S get one. Sport Chrono and Porsche Sports Exhaust (PSE) are the options to look for.

Be aware that cars that are cheaper than the market are usually UK imports and will always be cheaper.

The first real depreciation hit is at 40k kms, then around 80k, and finally pretty much everything over 100k is valued roughly the same. If you're going to daily it be mindful that starting out with a 60k kms car is going to see you selling a 100k+ km car 3 years later which has a much lower value.

[vtsyrlin]

What do you think of this?

https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-911-Carrera-2009/SSE-AD-4430603/?Cr=5

How much do you think it's worth? 

[Peter M]

If you can stretch to an S get one.

Why?

[sleazius]

Why?

Noticeable bump in performance and retained values are better once you get past 10 yrs old. That may not apply to PDK cars though as there hasn't been enough time to find out yet.

What do you think of this?

https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-911-Carrera-2009/SSE-AD-4430603/?Cr=5

How much do you think it's worth? 

We can't really help you with specific cars, the only thing you can do is do a PPI (pre-purchase inspection) with a reputable Porsche shop, either Porsche Dealer or trusted independent.

It'd be like you showing us a picture of a chick you're thinking of dating and asking us how crazy do we think she is. We can tell you she looks good from the photos, but until someone actually gets up close to take a look, you can't really know.

[vtsyrlin]

I was more referring to price/model specs rather than if its good mechanically.... and by the way, the chick I was dating (and married) is definitely crazy

[sleazius]

All women are at least a 4 crazy:

[Peter M]

.....retained values are better once you get past 10 yrs old. That may not apply to PDK cars though as there hasn't been enough time to find out yet.

Thanks, I hadn't thought there would be much change ahead given the first ones are now 8 years old and there have been two new subsequent 911 models released in that time. 

Wouldn't the 996 and 997.1's prices have a greater influence on retained values of 997.2 through the sheer numbers of these earlier cars being available? 

[turboT]

Back to reality for a moment.

Do you have safe secure undercover parking at your place of work?

If you don't, I wouldn't put yourself through the heartbreak and like it or not a Camry is the answer as your daily driver.  Sorry to sound like your Dad.

 

If you do, carry on!

 

 

However, with the mileages you are planning to add, don't expect the car will appreciate. It will also get knocked around. It may hold value but you're also going to spend a bit on upkeep no matter what P car you buy.  Also borrowing big sums for a car that will likely be more liability than an asset also has whiskers on it.  Only borrow for appreciating asset purchases.  Sorry to sound like your accountant.

 

However I think the best solution is having two cars.  An inexpensive daily - Camry, Cerato, Rio or i30 and a P car weekender.

 

If you are only doing this to impress your mates and pick up women, ignore all of the above as logic doesn't apply.   

Pete - you are such a DAD/ACCOUNTANT/.....Volvo luva 

Practically all Porsche's are built to be daily's.  As long as they have been cared for, and you intend to follow suit you could daily anything from an SC to a 997 and above. Although wearing shorts and a singlet might be advisable in an SC/3.2/930 in summer. They all cost money to run...but that the price of membership.

A turbo is the ultimate Daily. They are built for fat German executives that want to  go fast....every day.

If you want to buy a sports car to use only on weekends, get a Ferrari 

 

[DJM]

22k for an engine rebuild !- welcome to P ownership I suppose.

try $50k for a Mezger rebuild if your 996TT engine lets go.  They seem pretty robust but failures can and do happen, especially in tuned engines,  and if you damage them bad enough and need to replace the crankcase, then try $65k for size (ask me how I know)

i sold a GT2 partly because it was just stupid fast.  Turbos suffer the same affliction.  To me, a Cayman or 997 Carrera S is plenty fast to be fun and comfortable for DD.  

My licence and I survived 2 years of GT2 ownership.  I now have a very fast, cheap, track only car.  If I get back into a Porsche, as a weekender, id prefer reasonable but not silly grunt, NA, light weight and under tyred to be able to be explored sensibly on the road.  Kind of Toyota 86 philosophy.

[Cars And Coffee Byron Bay]

22k for an engine rebuild !- welcome to P ownership I suppose. I've been reading about multitude of engine reliability issues but not sure how these stats stack up against overall reliability of the P-branded cars. Usually people who don't have any issues don't post on the forums. The general consensus is that 911 is reliable if properly maintained and generally looked after.

CaCBB - did you realise that the engine needed work when you originally bought your car?

I read that despite doing PPI people still do get burned with the engine issues.

I knew the engine needed work when I first drove it, but didn't realise the EXTENT of work required until it was opened up.   I, like you, have an IT background.    I can do the electrics, but suck at the mechanical.

Also, if you plan to drive your Porsche to clients, take my advice and park around the corner.   Nothing gets people more worked up than an IT Consultant turning up in a 911 - even though it could be worth less than their BMW or blah blah blah they are leasing.   Get used to the comments "Oh, we must be paying you too much" (yawn).

Maybe go the hot old air cooled 911 for fun, and get a Kia  Corolla (sorry guys) for the daily grind.

[ANF]

Such a loaded question, which one do you want?

[Peter M]

Practically all Porsche's are built to be daily's.......If you want to buy a sports car to use only on weekends, get a Ferrari 

Tom,

Don't disagree that they are more than capable of being used daily.  My point is that I wouldn't want to subject mine to what I and others do to my daily driven Passat.

It would be interesting to see how many forum members DD their non-SUV Porsches.  I suspect it would in the order of only a few percent overall with Boxster's likely leading the charge. 

Surely not a reason to go Italian.  You don't DD yours do you? 

[michel]

924 turbo and a 996 variant 

@turboT south dowling at 8.47am  ain't the fast lane on an autobahn 

[Mike D'Silva]

Everyone knows that older 911 are rubbish..

- weird driving position

- rust

- leak oil

- cost a fortune to rebuild (they apparently need a full rebuild every 100k )

- shitty brakes... no brake booster in the older cars.. I mean.. come on! 

- shitty power steer (if at all)

- aircon .. haha.. yeah right.

- daft ergonomics (switches all over the fucking place inside)

- handle weird

- lowish power 

Newer 911 are much more advanced... and cost LESS than the aircooled garbage.

Plus they are much more safe, comfortable, convenient and easier to cop on a day to day basis.

 

 

[smit2100]

Not my area of expertise but I would have thought leasing a 996 would be a struggle due to age of the vehicle? 

Also, older Porsches don't necessarily cost more to maintain than newer ones. You need to be looking at cars though that have been well maintained. 

Im a +1 for a newer Cayman, hard to beat as an all rounder. 

Based on my circumstances (PAYG salaried employee) , I  didn't have an issue leasing a 996 turbo on a novated sale and lease back for one year.  I have also put a 2000 audi b5 s4 on a novated lease (13 years old at the time) on the same lease setup.  Probably helped that the lease value was the lowest I could get away with.  eg cherry picking the lowest glass's / redbook number I could find to satisfy ATO requirements.  My experience has been on older cars it depends for novated leases on your employers (leasing company if outsourced)  policies and the company that actually finances the lease and the amount you want to  finance against the car.

Each to their own, but if you are a salaried employee on a novated lease, if looking at your bottom line numbers is of interest / or driving your dollar further, it  has me  scratching my head financially how many make a 20% fbt impost on a watercooled Porsche (OP's thinking on a 996tt / 997 into the luxury car tax (lct) bracket terrority) plus the extra lct ding work if you have the car as a daily on a lease.  Some folks, don't even push to say to the leasing company, forget what I paid for my watercooled P car, its  only worth XXXXX in terms of establishing  the fbt cost base (eg I negotiated / pushed hard that my 996 tt is only worth 72,600 (that's what redbook/ glass guide said 12 months ago and who pays these car sales advertised prices).

Bottomline numbers for me appear to work if:

1) You are on the top margin rate, earn well over 300k a year, plenty equity / own  your principle residence,  maxed  your super contributions out, and have no appetite to claim any more interest on investment loans (max your investment borrowing capacity) and prefer to waste cash on a P car instead of gifting it to the tax office.

2) You are able to minimise / eliminate the FBT impost. (extremely unlikely if its an actual daily)

3) Brought a lemon after having a PPI done, paid top dollar for it and you are bringing the car back to your idea of awesomeness on the weekends  (on a 996 tt suffer from paranoia in terms of upping boost from 30% to 80% whilst taking a lefty view from the conservative right wing purists who preach 14 year old rubber P bits apparently function just as good today as when they came out of the factory in terms of noticeable performance when behind the wheel) and your maintenance outlay in pretax dollars  is very large that the tax saving via salary sacrificing in pre tax dollars absorbs that fbt / luxury tax impost.

4) Don't have a Mrs (or understanding partner who has a passion for cars ), are a speed (boost) junky and are  renting or doesn't have sufficient equity in a property to use mortgage rates to finance your 100k P car in absence of having the cash and want a nice expensive daily right now

5) Think your watercooled Porsche is going to return circa 20% compounded return over the term of the lease.  (good luck on a NA 997)

Eg You snag a watercooled Porsche for 100k.  FBT / LCT is about 25k.  Lease interest is about 9k.  Allowing for top marginal rate savings, your in for circa 17k each year when you sign on the bottom line.

If you have access to a redraw in a mortgage and could cover the 100k outlay using that, that's 4.25%.   Surely if you brought a half decent watercooled PPI'd Porsche,  you  could be all in for 17k a year.  eg maintenance, rego, 4.25k redraw interest on the 100k loan, insurance, petrol etc.

With the lease we haven't talked about any on road running costs, even if you get them for 58.5% discount (eg pay pretax on top rate and get gst back), your way behind.  

If one still pushes for a new novated lease and wants to do it on a 996tt, I can comment on a 996 tt under a lease, but  not as a daily  (Jimtt may be able to comment) as I have put very few km's on the car over the last 11 months or so whilst its been under lease for good reasons (1/3 of the km's have been driving to workshops and taking the long way home) , eg minor service / major service and a couple of mandatory quick in and out of workshop must do tweaks for my butt dyno.

However, after driving my daily / beater car around (b5 s4 referenced above that would also give many P car's / OP's M135i a run for its money in a straight line) and then stepping into the slightly messed with  996 tt(waste of money leaving the car stock in my humble opinion if you intend to get max bang for buck as a daily / weekend drivers car),  I could  live with it as a daily (except for the need to add chin spoilers as a consumable item).  The 996 tt clutch even in traffic is effortless compared to my audi's  single mass lightweight flywheel setup.   I was enjoying driving the 996tt in vacuum as much as when getting on it and seeing 1.0 bar of boost come up on the gauge. Eg Can't believe what a difference some ECU tweeks and going from a tune with peak boost of 0.9 to 1.0 bar has had on the driveability of the car in terms of spool up and  throttle response (on / off boost).  Pretty impressive when you can notice the immediate difference when you pull out of the driveway of your workshop and make your first shifts from 2nd to 3rd to 4th.  Surely spending USD $895 plus shipping  on a Cobb accessport is hands down the best bang for buck spent on any Porsche, from a butt dyno / actual dyno performance perspective.  I have to laugh at what the AC guys need to do / spend for another 50 odd hp ( workshop labour to load a Cobb tune  is about 15 minutes of which the majority is attaching  a backup power supply whilst the tune is loaded)

PS I see a few posts making fun of the saab turbo vs 996 turbo comparison.   Yes the 4.2 second vs 8.1 second 0 to 100 km/hr actual factory publications is comical, but one astute poster offered up the  saab perhaps has a better sweet spot in a narrow band over the 996tt.  Not as silly as it sounds.  Once you get over the novelty of getting behind the wheel the 996 turbo and can objectively compare the car to others for butt dyno speed, I for one can relate to the lack lustre and uninspiring butt dyno feel  band between 50km/hr and 90km/hr in a stock 996 turbo if you are coming from a boosted daily.  Other rpm / speed levels and well  that's a different story / conclusionther story

I think the 996tt with a tune and exhaust is perfect for what you have outlined (eg drive it in vacuum during the week (may get a little bit of boost driving down Nepean highway around Gardenvale / Brighton if you get pole position at the lights and then easily loose your license whilst not touching the sides on getting anywhere near full boost on the weekends all whilst possibly no depreciation if you buy well (not subscribing to OPs 120k to 140k pricing for a 996 turbo. Just a capable high performing all rounder with a few tweaks.  Give Symsy a 5k advocate buying fee and I am sure he could land one for you with under 100k  for circa $110k - with spare cash for a tune and Bluetooth mod if its stock). 

For a 996 turbo in terms of running costs,  I see a huge difference in pricing of parts for a major service and fluids between Porsche dealer and sourcing yourself (I rarely buy Euro car parts locally).   Some of the purists on here twisted my thinking into getting a Porsche dealer stamp for my  60k major service onto  the log books not withstanding I had purchased all required genuine parts and some plus all required fluids (genuine) from OS.   The price difference between landed part prices from O/S and those on the Porsche dealer invoice definitely has the inbuilt P tax built in I would not entertain them if was not claiming them under a lease and it wasn't for a major service

eg Cherry picking, Pollen Filter - 152 ex gst  Invoice from Porsche dealer vs 55 landed (includes prorated shipping across a few parts).  Air filter $83 ex gst  vs 50 landed

I am finding car part prices are pretty similar to my audi if you know where / how to buy your parts and further savings to be had  if have a independent workshop that is happy to install your supplied parts which makes ongoing ownership much cheaper even under a lease.

A 997 has the better interior and exterior  looks as I see it,  but a slightly messed with 996 turbo (TUNE, EXHAUST, BLUETOOTH SETUP IF A DAILY) is a much better all rounder once behind the wheel if your into spirited drives, particulary coming from an already capable boosted car.  On paper, not hard to go from circa 420hp to circa 500 hp and back again to stock within 8 hours of workshop time max.  Good luck getting that done on a NA 997.  

@‌vtrsyin, did you drive a stock 996tt or a slightly messed with one.  Big and noticeable difference between the two as I see it.  Pitty I am not in town, as would be happy to swap keys to your bmw M135i to make you think again about not writing off a 996 tt vs NA 997

 In terms of buying prices for a 996 tt, twelve months ago, redbook / glass guide worked for me, eg pick a number, eg high end of range to buy, lowest  end to do a sale and lease back and middle range to base fbt on.

 

 

 

[DJM]

^^ Mike, a bold statement on this forum....

"air cooled garbage" should attract some responses ?

You neglected to mention the character and history and feel

bit I agree old cars and DD doesn't excit me....at all

[TwoHeadsTas]

Not my area of expertise but I would have thought leasing a 996 would be a struggle due to age of the vehicle? 

Also, older Porsches don't necessarily cost more to maintain than newer ones. You need to be looking at cars though that have been well maintained. 

Im a +1 for a newer Cayman, hard to beat as an all rounder. 

Hugh, you might be surprised.  Macquarie Leasing financed an 8 year old (2005) Boxster S for my wife through her hospital salary packaging 3 years ago.  They don't appear to have too much problem with older "special" cars that don;t depreciate like modern sh*t

cheers

Peter

[turboT]

Tom,

Don't disagree that they are more than capable of being used daily.  My point is that I wouldn't want to subject mine to what I and others do to my daily driven Passat.

It would be interesting to see how many forum members DD their non-SUV Porsches.  I suspect it would in the order of only a few percent overall with Boxster's likely leading the charge. 

Surely not a reason to go Italian.  You don't DD yours do you? 

I actually do Pete. Admittedly I have options so if its pissing with rain I leave the 930 at home 

I wouldn't do a two hour daily commute in an old porsche though, but a 996 tt or any 997 - no problem at all 

[DJM]

 

my head hurts..... 

[sandy468]

I wondered how long it'd take

[Al]

Ok I have the answer..

Get a Porsche for a weekend car and a Volvo for a daily. The Volvo will handle the daily battle scars, you wont care about them and it'll get you A to B is superior comfort, style and safety. You will soon reliase your Volvo is utterly amazing, you'll sell the Porsche and have a bucket load of money to do something else with like a big deposit on a beach shack in Tasmania.