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jb84911

1984 3.2 Carrera Suspension Advice

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Hi, 

I'd like some opinion re. refurbishing my suspension. 

I only use the car for spirited drives (smt's etc). So I guess I'm after a balance between comfort and performance.

I'm thinking :

-replace rubber bushes

-turbo tie rods

-ball joints

-spring Plates

I read conflicting opinions re. dampers.

Bilstein or Koni?

Bilstein Sports all round?

Bilstein Heavy duty front/ Sports rear

Not sure if I need to  increase the size of torsion or sway bars for street use. 

Thoughts on  increasing the rear torsion bars to 26mm ?

Thanks Guys

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G'day JB,

I recently went through this exact exercise. I have gathered all the goodies, just pending fitment.

Under the advise of individuals who I value their opinion, I went with factory rubber bushings, as I too do the occasional SMT and still wanted some a somewhat compliant ride. I only went the urethane for the sway bar rubbers and engine mounts.

Turbo tie-rods are a given. Regarding the rear torsion bars, figured the 26mm were good enough for the 930, so that was the chosen diameter for me. (who am I to know better than the Porsche research department)

Shockers, I believe are a personal opinion. Haven't had much experience with Bilstein's, but have with Koni, so that was my chosen path.

See you out on the streets ;) 

 

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Bilstein B6's all round, turbo tie rod ends, std or OEM other parts and a good set of tyres.  Nothing more required.  Sorry for the boring, low cost but effective answer!

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The other thing to consider is ride height. I am a big fan of lowering the car as it not only looks good but it improves handling if done right. If you do this, you will need a bump steer kit and my preference is the one that raises the steering rack.

The rest is all a matter of personal preference. I have found that there is a great deal of difference between what some people think of as a balance between comfort and performance and what others think the balance is.

You drive the car at the moment, so ask yourself what it is that you want to change about the feel. It might mean going for a spirited drive just to concentrate on that. How do you feel about the amount of body roll. How is the car reacting with your particular driving style - are you getting under steer, over steer etc. Once you have a bit of an idea, then do some research to see what people recommend to sort the issues.

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I am a big fan of lowering the car as it not only looks good but it improves handling if done right....

If John was doing SMSP rather than SMT's I'd agree but street racing on back roads is also about coping with rough roads, ground clearance and point to point times so I'd recommend he stays with the std ride height as well because dragging/bottoming on road heaves and depressions (and driveways!) isn't fun or fast.

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Forgive my ignorance, as I haven't really started to think about suspension yet (although I should be). What is the reason everyone goes with Turbo Tie rods? Do the standard ones have a habit of breaking?

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The standard ones contain a rubber insulator to somewhat isolate the driver from road vibration.  The rod ends that came standard with the 930's are solid steel on steel.  Hence the term Turbo tie rods.

Edited by Peter M
missing words

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Turbo tie rods use a ball joint instead of a yoke. This is now the standard on modern cars.  It gives an instant improvement in feel and steering control over the original

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Great. Thanks for the explanation. I now need to do a bit more research on what to do on my cars suspension.

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As an exercise go into elephant racing suspension package builder  ... 

 

im agreeing both with peterM and SimonN  I did a very comprehensive undercarriage rebuild on my 71t

most of my driving done early mornings indifferent country road surfaces.

was lowered , had a bump kit fitted

had sports hardness rubber bushes 

except inner trailing arm bushes were Ti monoball from Fennlane. 

turbo T rods

rubber sway bar bushes 

yellow external adjustable konis

t bars 22/26. Though could have changed that to better suit the shocks 

fitted later spring plates 

firted sport hardness gearbox engine mounts 

if doing again I'd fit poly bronze front rear (ER) 

camber max adjuster (ER) 

Go lower and raise spndes 

coil overs 

hollow t bars 

wevo blue engine box mounts 

some other black op WEVO Rebel ER doodads 

always something to spend money on. Though  at some point unless it's a real area of fascination, gains are academic, for most mainly about pub talk bragging rights - me included 

 

 

 

Edited by michel

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Great. Thanks for the explanation. I now need to do a bit more research on what to do on my cars suspension.

jeff we are going for a drive and I'll Intro you to the great Reg Percy . There. Is also a retired ex F1 suspension guy down road from me and another F1 engineer  down Sth Coast 

Edited by michel

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The suspension on my SC is Kangaroo Edward so I'm in much the same boat and I use my car in a similar way.

For a streetable car on our roads, it's easy to make it too hard so keeping it close to stock is wise.  However, std Carrera and SC suspension could do with being a bit sharper esp. given modern tyres.  Having faffed around interminably with 911 and 914 suspension, this is what I'm doing:

Turbo tie-rods - beware the cheap Chinese knock offs!  Lemforder or nothing...

Ball joints.  Unless you're going to track it, stay away from the de-cambered ones...

21/27 torsions.  There will be lots of opinions here, but it's easy to make the front too hard and then have to try and dial out a heap of understeer...

ER Poly Bronze bushes.  I've used these since they were introduced - fantastic product. In my experience, hard bushes (Delrin, Nolathane etc) always bloody squeak.  No matter how much you lubricate them.  Also, they wear quickly.

'Better' strut mounts - i.e. harder.  Rebel and Rennline have them.  Probably Pelican too.

Shocks are partly a function of what struts you have - they need to be checked.  For me, front shocks will be Bilstein Sport because I have the green struts.  Koni is a good alternative for non-Bilstein struts.  Rebel do a Bilstein Custom rear shock matched to your torsion bars (quote size when ordering) for $USD229 each (about $USD60 premium to std Sport shocks) which is pretty reasonable in the greater scheme of things.

Std sways with new bushes.

Can't see the point in spending on new spring plates unless the old ones are fubar.  Replacements make adjustment easy but once it's done, it's done so why spend upwards of $400 on something with questionable advantage.

Of course, if you want bragging rights, you could always talk to Tuttills in the UK about one of their rally setups - >50,000 pounds sterling :o

My 2c...

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If John was doing SMSP rather than SMT's I'd agree but street racing on back roads is also about coping with rough roads, ground clearance and point to point times so I'd recommend he stays with the std ride height as well because dragging/bottoming on road heaves and depressions (and driveways!) isn't fun or fast.

the standard ride height is stratospheric, can easily lower it and still keep solid ground clearance.
i take my track car on street runs and the only thing i have to be careful of is the massive front lip, stock front valence has no issues.

how stiff the ride is has been more of an issue than ride height.

Edited by clutch-monkey

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The other thing to consider is ride height. I am a big fan of lowering the car as it not only looks good but it improves handling if done right. If you do this, you will need a bump steer kit and my preference is the one that raises the steering rack.

The rest is all a matter of personal preference. I have found that there is a great deal of difference between what some people think of as a balance between comfort and performance and what others think the balance is.

You drive the car at the moment, so ask yourself what it is that you want to change about the feel. It might mean going for a spirited drive just to concentrate on that. How do you feel about the amount of body roll. How is the car reacting with your particular driving style - are you getting under steer, over steer etc. Once you have a bit of an idea, then do some research to see what people recommend to sort the issues.

One thing people dont consider when installing the bump steer kit is that the factory universal joints for the steering, do not allow for additional height in readjustment without slightly modifying it.
By not readjusting the universal joints on the spline, you will wear out the universal joints quicker and the loading is not uniform anymore, which will result in clunking of the steering (and these are not cheap to replace).

I think your list is looking good, but might I ask why youre replacing the spring plates? The 3.2 already has the finer eccentric height adjustment, and I only see the aftermarket replacements as an improvement in torsion bar reindexing/replacement speed.

A couple of things I would stay away from for street driving, solid strut mounts and 34mm hollow section torsion, its just way too hard. Just replace the rubber in the factory strut mounts to a polyurethane one. 


I think either Bilstein or Koni wont do you wrong, they are both adjustable anyways, so you have some room to wiggle and fine tune. 

Im in the process of trying to make a targa car back into something streetable, so its been an insight into what can be done and for me, where the limit is between too much for the street.

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I am a big fan of lowering the car as it not only looks good but it improves handling if done right.

If John was doing SMSP rather than SMT's I'd agree but street racing on back roads is also about coping with rough roads, ground clearance and point to point times so I'd recommend he stays with the std ride height as well because dragging/bottoming on road heaves and depressions (and driveways!) isn't fun or fast.

We will have to agree to disagree. My car is lowered and the only scraping is the bar that protects the from mounted A/C condenser when going over a steep lip to my driveway if i am not careful. I am very confident that I have never come anywhere near bottoming out on the road. It is a standard set up that PR technology use and I believe is the same as they set up their Targa cars. If I wanted the car set up for more track oriented work, they would have lowered it further. It is well worth looking at Targa spec suspension because that has to deal with the worst of road conditions at higher speed than you would drive on an SMT. 

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When I said spring plates I was referring to the fact that the bushes need replacing. Spoke to Lou at motion automotive. He doesn't sound too convinced re just replacing the bushes. He also said if it was his car he would use genuine Porsche spring plates ($900 each). James at Autohaus has some about a quarter that price which he said are fine for street use. (metal used in the genuine part is harder)

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Ok I've rebuilt many front and rear ends on these cars over the years. Firstly judging by your photo your car is a targa?

i would go with the following for a good sweet street package.

keep your original spring plates and covers and bolts, these can all be restored to look better than new in original zinc gold.

turbo tie rods.

new ball joints ( decambered if u want a bit of free camber) however not needed for general street. Up to u?

torsion bars. Go with 21 solids in the front and 27 hollows in the back.

bushes go for urethane not rubber, it will just firm up your ride that bit in a positive way. Maybe rubber only in the strut tops.

schocks, bilsteins sports are the go out of the box. 

Tyres depending on your rim size, can't beat the Dunlop z2, cracker tyre.

If u need any help send me a pm and I can help you out further.

lastly a good alignment from somebody like Carl jones who does heaps on alignments on 911s and Ferraris etc, and u will say wow what a difference.

cheers Richard.

 

 

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On the subject of tyres, you will struggle to find anything better for fast road use than Yokohama Advan AD08R. It's been proven time and again. The best bit is that you can use them for track work as well. Their wet weather performance will never be as good as a pure street tyre, but they are by no means poor while in the dry they are truly fantastic and pretty close to a true R compound. The biggest downside is that they are a little noisier than a pure road tyre so for some, they don't make a great daily use tyre.

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NVH and Bumpsteer that is cool when you are in your 20`s, is mildly amusing when you are in your 30`s,becomes slightly annoying when you are in your 40`s  and Really PISSES you off when you are in your 50`s.

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NVH and Bumpsteer that is cool when you are in your 20`s, is mildly amusing when you are in your 30`s,becomes slightly annoying when you are in your 40`s  and Really PISSES you off when you are in your 50`s.

it may be you are ready for an Xbox 

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it may be you are ready for an Xbox 

Isn`t that one of those things that the Kiddies play their games on?

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it may be you are ready for an Xbox 

or perhaps a white Camry, hat on the shelf is optional. 

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