Autonomous EVs

[Coastr]

I just saw @LeeMs tale in the other thread, kinda proves my point so I thought I'd share

 Tell that to Whyalla, SA about generators!

 I was stuck in that hole for 24 hours with one job to finish, with no phone (mobile or land line) food, drink NOTHING available to buy, because the servo's, motel and shops had no back up gennie's. I lived on a bag of Twisties and a few cans of scotch, because all the places I went to stock up at couldn't accept payment due to not being able to use their card facilities or give me a receipt for cash. What? You're kidding me? You don't have a pen and piece of paper to write on? Backward hicks! With no phone service to call or text the missus with what was happening, nor could she call me on a land line, she was very worried. No tv or internet to get information or break the boredom, so you can imagine it was like watching paint dry for the duration. Actually, watching paint dry is probably more entertaining than anything in Whyalla, so maybe it wasn't all that bad! My last client was a right wanker after I'd visited his house 4 times to tell him I couldn't do the job until they had power back on, as I don't have all battery powered tools, nor could I buy any because the hardware stores were closed. He still didn't get it, and I had zero patience for his dribble. It turned out that he had a big gennie, but he forgot to tel me that. Idiot

 Pt Augusta an hour away had fuel and some facilities open, though as I had no fuel whatsoever, I didn't fancy being stuck halfway in that kinda country, as I'd end up disappearing and end up as a Dingo's dinner with some of the locals not being very friendly at all, so that wasn't an option. The motel (biggest and best in that town) were useless, as they just wouldn't allow me to grab any food that was in the fridge or a packet of crisps, drinks etc. I know the owner who is in Adelaide, yet couldn't get hold of him to have a whinge and get them to sort it out for me. Bloody hopeless, so I didn't pay my room bill at the end of it. That was how most of the business owners were, useless!! The only good thing the next morning was a small deli had a gennie that made me some bacon and egg rolls and other food n drink supplies, yet I still couldn't get any fuel to leave the place

 It was an experience I'd rather not go through again, though will in future ensure I have enough fuel to get the hell out of there if required. And more scotch!

   Why people don't prepare for the worst is beyond me, especially running a business. I had a big gennie at home, but allowed a mate's mum and dad to borrow it not long before the outage. Permanently by the looks of it now, as my request for it's return have fell on deaf ears, so I'm going to buy one when I can just to power up a fridge or some lights for when we get another outage, as it will no doubt happen again with this idiotic government. I just hope that I'm not stuck in that god forsaken dump when it does!

 

Now imagine the same thing in Sydney or Melbourne.  Generator, spare fuel, spare cash in reasonable notes.  Given I am in a cyclone zone I also have spare water and food already.  I can only last about 3 days as it is.

[tazzieman]

  I can only last about 3 days as it is.

Bigger fridge?

[MFX]

wait until the power has been out for a few days.  The mood might have shifted somewhat.

SA can't power itself and relies on Vic for power.  Tas can power as long as they have water, but rely on Vic for backup.  Vic just switched off 20% of supply.  Vic will rely on NSW for backup.  NSW is on razor thin margins and relies on QLD for backup. More stations are slated for closure.

Meanwhile, Newcastle port ships out coal for HELE plants in China and India so they can have electricity.  But we're not allowed to use it, because, well, not sure why.  When everyone else figures out what is going on they might request to rejoin the 21st century like our Chinese and Indian friends.  And that means power stations, big ones.  Eventually.

In the meantime work out what it costs to replace the contents of your fridge and freezer and compare to a small generator.  Ask someone in SA for the sums and see if it adds up for you.  It certainly did for me.

Actually both my brother and my parents in SA have both got themselves sorted out with generators now, as they are fed up with being without power.

[T-Man]

Well this becomes even more interesting with VIC and SA governments planing to trial a scheme which pays households and businesses to reduce their power uptake in summer. http://www.smh.com.au/business/energy/businesses-households-to-be-paid-to-use-less-electricity-next-summer-20170518-gw840k.html

Can't afford to run air conditioning so I guess that a glut of EVs would add a little to the problem.

 

[Redracn]

At 2% it is just virtue signaling and will make no differance at all. Fact is the stupid government has signed all of us up for blackouts (aka load shedding) without our permission. This stupidity will distory what is left of any industry in VIC/SA.  

[LeeM]

 When it comes down to it, they'll cut the power when and where they want as they have been doing for years. This is just another poor excuse for not fixing the problem that they have caused. They told everyone to buy solar power to save money, yet they cut tariff's and limit the amount of panels you can have! 

 It's just the normal government bulls..t being fed to us

 

[firstone]

Limit the number of panels?

I've not bothered with them since I flip in a few years.

 

[Pork Chops]

[Coastr]

Solar is ok to take the edge off but it doesn't replace a grid connection unless you're a long way from the nearest pole.

next time you're in Coles or woollies take a look at the amount of refrigeration they are running in the visible part of the store.  Double it for what is out the back.  Now imagine how many solar panels you need to run those bad boys.  And then multiply by three because you need to store the energy to run overnight.  And then by three again in case you go three days without rain.

cool tech but like Porsches niche use only.  It would be good to have an electric car and enough solar to charge it, so your motoring costs are finance, depreciation and service only.  Pricey though, cheaper to buy 5000l of petrol.

The sooner we get back to mechanical engineering instead of social engineering the better off everyone will be.  People have forgotten that the grand electrification projects were about public safety (street lighting), fire safety and making everyone better off by allowing labor saving devices in every house.   Big water infrastructure was about public health, firefighting and power production,  Now we are going back to people storing and using liquid fuels, putting in fireplaces and water tanks and generally acting like remote farmers instead of city dwellers.  Government wants us to cut down on energy usage and invest in local production and storage.  Why?  Nobody ever answers that.  I doubt the pollies can even answer that.  But on it goes, becaus the choice is blackouts.  At least we don't get rioting and looting like they do in some U.S. Cities when the power goes off.  Legend has it that the hip hop scene was invented after all the hifi shops in New York were relieved of their contents and sold on the street during a 3 day blackout in 1977.  

[Redracn]

Looks like the hype is just that.  No "Home James" anytime soon.

https://www.wheelsmag.com.au/features/1705/autonomous-cars-and-the-laws-of-robotics

 

 

[KGB]

"And why would a pedestrian wait patiently for a green man if they know the approaching car will stop safely if they step out?"

Anarchy.  Can't wait...

[tazzieman]

Well , doh! 

http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/ford-australia-chief-says-motorists-not-necessarily-ready-to-embrace-driverless-cars/news-story/2ab7dccf79c434e004c629a6baf26097

 

[Redracn]

Who to blame when involved in an accident ? The debate over this has not even started. Whats worse is that some think the tech is ready now when in reality It is not even close. 

I expect a lot of backing away from the outrageous claims and timelines as it becomes more obvious they will not be achieved. 

 

[tazzieman]

Well this is me!

I have generated 3 real drivers,  but it will different for my sons' kids in the future

[tazzieman]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/business/autonomous-cars-enthusiasts.html?hpw&rref=automobiles&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

At a “Why Driving Matters” panel in Scottsdale, Ariz., in January, McKeel Hagerty, whose namesake firm insures vintage autos and sponsored the discussion, spoke fondly of the 1967 Porsche he bought while a teenager — and still owns.

“The car requires your full attention,” he said, “and I love it for that.”

[tazzieman]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-autonomous-germany/germany-draws-up-rules-of-the-road-for-driverless-cars-idUSKCN1B31MT

"That means that when an accident is unavoidable, the software must choose whichever action will hurt people the least, even if that means destroying property or hitting animals in the road, a transport ministry statement showed.

The software may not decide on its course of action based on the age, sex or physical condition of any people involved.

“The interactions of humans and machines is throwing up new ethical questions in the age of digitalization and self-learning systems,” German Transport Minister Alexander Dobrindt said in a statement.

“The ministry’s ethics commission has pioneered the cause and drawn up the world’s first set of guidelines for automated driving,” he added.

Germany earlier this year passed legislation under which a driver must be sitting behind the wheel at all times ready to take back control if prompted to do so by the autonomous vehicle, clearing the way for the development and testing of self-driving cars."

and:

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-05/driverless-cars-ethical-debate-you-decide/9836786

"“Well, that’s for ethicists and politicians to debate.”

It’s a debate that gets more complex and delicate when real humans are involved."

[Redracn]

So Germanys law requires there be a driver behind the wheel ready to take control. I can only assume that “ready” means fully aware of their suroundings including all other traffic, speed limits etc. 

So why bother with autonomous cars at all? This requirement also slaps down all the wonderful stuff like driving the drunks, handicapped around etc. 

And how do they expect a car to work out what will hurt people the least. Are they going to simulate all injury's including identifying each person individually and based on their medical history work out the level of injury and recovery time along with how it will affect their income and future quality of life then assign a number and look to get the lowest sum for all those involved.

They just keep digging themselves a deeper hole. 

[tazzieman]

And computers break down. Maybe that is the cause of the brakes failing in the first place.
I place my trust in analog.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-45247499

Luckily someone had a whiteboard and an oldskool marker in a drawer. Anarchy averted...just!

[tazzieman]

So the Tesla security R&D team missed this loophole?
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/09/researchers-show-off-method-for-hacking-teslas-keyless-entry-so-turn-on-two-factor-authentication/

"researchers at the KU Leuven University in Belgium are presenting the results of nine months of reverse-engineering work at the Cryptographic Hardware and Embedded Systems conference in Amsterdam. They claim their technique could open the car’s door and turn on the engine, enabling an attacker to make a getaway with the car that tends to go for around six figures.

According to Wired, the researchers discovered that the Model S key fob used a 40-bit cipher to encrypt the code transmitted to the vehicle’s radio receivers. This is relatively unsophisticated in encryption terms and is, unfortunately, a limit imposed by the fob’s processing power.

The researchers found they could listen in to the radio ID that’s being constantly broadcasted from the car and relay it to the target’s key fob. They then had to listen for the fob’s response and intercept two return-broadcasts. Once they had two code examples, they were able to run them through a six-terabyte table of pre-computed keys and acquire the code they needed to break into the car in under two seconds."

[LeeM]

And now every geek thief knows how to flog one ?

[tazzieman]

46 minutes ago, LeeM said:

And now every geek thief knows how to flog one ?

Why doesn't Tesla trump every other mfr. and just hire some Russian geeks to design a safe key in the first place?

[Raven]

Interesting you posted this Tazzie Tesla are not the only one with this issue ........ A member who I speak too and who,s post I follow on Rennlist had is week old 2018 GT2 RS stolen in a similar way ....

From what I have read on this the only way to minimize the chance of this happening is to keep the Fob in a special pouch eg Faraday Pouch that blocks any wireless device trying to get the cipher code ..

This is a big problem in Europe currently with organized car thieves targeting high end hard to get exotics Like the GT2 RS ,,many of these stolen cars end up in Russia ..

 

[tazzieman]

We now have to keep our keys in a Faraday Pouch?
I keep my old Landy key on a keyring with the machete. Totally confuses millenial thieves.

https://mashable.com/2017/11/28/protect-your-car-wireless-relay-attack/#u3Cjcr7A8gqy

"Essentially, a device — in this case held by one thief next to what appears to be a garage door — searches for, finds, and relays a signal from a wireless key fob inside the victim's home. That signal is sent to a second device, held by another thief, near the car itself. The car is tricked into thinking the fob is present, and is then able to be both unlocked and started. These devices have been spotted for sale online, so it's not like it takes a mechanical wizard to build one from scratch. 

Importantly, they only work on cars that have a keyless ignition system — one that allows a driver to start the car by pushing a button after the vehicle detects a key is present. The attack would not start cars with a keyed ignition that just have a click-to-unlock fob."

[Redracn]

26 minutes ago, Raven said:

Interesting you posted this Tazzie Tesla are not the only one with this issue ........ A member who I speak too and who,s post I follow on Rennlist had is week old 2018 GT2 RS stolen in a similar way ....

From what I have read on this the only way to minimize the chance of this happening is to keep the Fob in a special pouch eg Faraday Pouch that blocks any wireless device trying to get the cipher code ..

This is a big problem in Europe currently with organized car thieves targeting high end hard to get exotics Like the GT2 RS ,,many of these stolen cars end up in Russia ..

 

We are talking about 2 different hacks here. The common one probably used on the GT2 is to use a cheap radio repeater/relay that greatly extends the distance the car can be from the key. Someone with one end of the relay follows the owner into a shop etc and stands a few meters from them while the other perp with the other end of the repeater just opens the door jumps in and drives away. The car simply thinks the repeater is the actual key. This method knows nothing about the encryption and does not break it. The manufacturers could fix this but security is something they are not good at. A Faraday shield will work in this case. 

The Tesla hack is a true hack in that by being near the car in question as it is opened and getting two transmissions from the key it can then break the encryption and fully replicate the key. A Faraday shield is usless in this case. 

It is likely other cars suffer from the same issue as Tesla as they tend to get their components from the same few suppliers. 

[Raven]

This is the problem with all this high tech electronics that is supposed to make life easy 

How hard is it to put a key in an ignition and turn it ...

The more high tech things get the easier it seems for the crimes to take advantage off ..

My friend on Rennlist dosnt expect the car to be recovered sadly 

4 minutes ago, Redracn said:

We are talking about 2 different hacks here. The common one probably used on the GT2 is to use a cheap radio repeater/relay that greatly extends the distance the car can be from the key. Someone with one end of the relay follows the owner into a shop etc and stands a few meters from them while the other perp with the other end of the repeater just opens the door jumps in and drives away. The car simply thinks the repeater is the actual key. This method knows nothing about the encryption and does not break it. The manufacturers could fix this but security is something they are not good at. A Faraday shield will work in this case. 

The Tesla hack is a true hack in that by being near the car in question as it is opened and getting two transmissions from the key it can then break the encryption and fully replicate the key. A Faraday shield is usless in this case. 

It is likely other cars suffer from the same issue as Tesla as they tend to get their components from the same few suppliers. 

Yes that is pretty much what happened only the Fob was on his bed side table ,they got into the garage ,,,started the car and gone ...

The owner of car said it was like military precision ,the car was gone before he even got out of bed ,,they were well organized and had planned the theft well ....