EV vehicle safety

[tazzieman]

The Hammond Incident notwithstanding , the topic deserves its own thread.

Article dated May 8th 2017. Jury still well out on this issue. Of course being the eternal old skeptic I am yet to be convinced.

Mobile phones can spontaneously combust after all.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/05/170508083558.htm

Another focus of the project is that, together with the Institute of Chemistry and Technology of Materials, not only state-of-the-art lithium-ion batteries with liquid electrolytes will be investigated, but also next-generation lithium batteries with all solid state electrolytes. "What interests us here is whether the coming generation of drive batteries simply no longer has the failings of the current systems or whether they'll have new or different vulnerabilities," says Wolfgang Sinz.

 

[Carrera28]

Yeah I have wondered about this.

I am open to the concept of electric cars and while not my personal taste, I can see why a different type of enthusiast would like the concept of electric cars, instant torque and continual upgrades of the operating system provide an entirely different driving experience.

But my inherent cynicism wonders about all the unknowns that come with new technology, one can't but wonder if new owners are almost beta testers of new technology so entrepreneurs can reduce their R&D investment

[thumperson]

Thermal runaway on batteries was a major reason for 787 Dreamliner delay into service. Aviation has been dealing with this and carbon composites in accidents for a while but the main difference is that generally the aircraft has crashed and everyone is dead or the aircraft is on the ground and everyone is getting away under their own steam which gives emergency responders the ability to wait for the dust to settle or for it to burn out. In a car accident where carbon fibres will be in the atmosphere and or the batteries leaking, or on fire, with screaming people trapped then first responders will be significantly in harms way. 

Untrained members of the public will not appreciate the dangers and won't have appropriate safety gear, like respiratorators, gloves and eye protection and will get hurt. 

[Redracn]

There is no doubt that EV owners ARE guinea pigs.

[JWM]

The premise of the study appears to be finding out how they can save cost by ratcheting _down_ the level of protection the batteries have, to save costs?

Safety, range and costs: these are the three big premises of electromobility. Safety definitely comes first. Lithium-based traction batteries are usually completely enclosed in the battery case and integrated in the vehicle to protect the battery from all conceivable stresses and external influences. This "armour" has an effect on construction, weight, size and overall design of the vehicle.

As an aside, I don't think you can say quite the same for a mobile phone battery.

May interest you chaps that the Model X was just announced as the safest SUV ever tested in the US https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/blog/tesla-model-x-5-star-safety-rating 

[LeeM]

NHTSA is probably owned by Elon Musk  

[Cars And Coffee Byron Bay]

It appears they havent introduced a "burn test" into the 5 star challenge yet.

[Redracn]

Very big assumption that the current cars are over engineered in relation to battery safety. They may find far more protection is needed. But it seems they are following the new scientific method developed by the global warming mob of determining an outcome and then designing the tests and interpreting the data in a way that achieves the stated outcome. 

 

May interest you chaps that the Model X was just announced as the safest SUV ever tested in the US https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/blog/tesla-model-x-5-star-safety-rating 

Since they are saying tested in the US which excludes those tested in the rest of the world then it would be safe to assume it is not the safest suv otherwise why not actually say so. Also these days the test have less to do with actual protection safety and more to do with options that tick boxes but a discussion on the stupidity of current star ratings needs its own thread.  

[Pork Chops]

IMHO these threads end up being about who can argue best, not who can put up the best argument.  I especially admire the one eyed dogma.

[tazzieman]

IMHO these threads end up being about who can argue best, not who can put up the best argument.  I especially admire the one eyed dogma.

Possibly , but if you re-read my first post you'll see that what is state of the art now is considered best available at this point in time , and nothing more.

Open minded skepticism is what scientists (but not entrepreneurs) are made of. I won't be buying a Tesla 'cos I'm saving up to go to the moon .

[OZ930]

Possibly , but if you re-read my first post you'll see that what is state of the art now is considered best available at this point in time , and nothing more.

Open minded skepticism is what scientists (but not entrepreneurs) are made of. I won't be buying a Tesla 'cos I'm saving up to go to the moon .

You'll need a Tesla SUV to get around up there ......

[ANF]

You'll need a Tesla SUV to get around up there ......

and a very long extension cord.....

[wilburforce]

Has anyone heard how EV fare in low-speed collisions?  To be honest i was shocked at how much Hammond's car was totally burnt and unable to be put out.  If this happened when buggalugs was texting and ran into the back of old mate on the Westage then i'd expect we are quite away from adopting them in a large scale. 

It appears they havent introduced a "burn test" into the 5 star challenge yet.

This. 100%. Surely ANCAP (or whoever makes the rules) will need to introduce something.

[tazzieman]

You'll need a Tesla SUV to get around up there ......

I'm a Benz man , so I have my eyes on a solar powered Unimog. There's sun on the moon isn't there? I've never been.

Has anyone heard how EV fare in low-speed collisions?  To be honest i was shocked at how much Hammond's car was totally burnt and unable to be put out.  If this happened when buggalugs was texting and ran into the back of old mate on the Westage then i'd expect we are quite away from adopting them in a large scale. 

This. 100%. Surely ANCAP (or whoever makes the rules) will need to introduce something.

Do they even test super/hypercars?

[grantmr]

Let's actually go looking for some facts...

Here is a PDF titled 'CRASHWORTHINESS TESTING OF ELECTRIC AND HYBRID VEHICLES', put together both by ANCAP and the U.S. equivalent, IIHS.

I just skimmed the Abstract and Conclusion, but here's some quotes:

"Since 2004, ANCAP and IIHS have subjected 42 hybrid and electric drivetrain vehicles to a variety of crashworthiness tests including both moderate and small overlap front crashes, side crashes, and roof strength tests."

"To date, ANCAP has assigned one 4-star rating and two 5-star ratings to electric vehicles in its evaluation program. Neither organization observed damage to the batteries or other portions of the electrical drive systems that indicated a potential risk."

"Neither ANCAP nor IIHS has observed problems associated with the electrical drive systems in tests of more than 40 hybrid and electrical vehicles. This observation suggests safety designers are providing good protection of the electrical drive systems in crashes represented by federal and consumer information tests."

However it's not all rosy - they state several examples of fires, such as the one below:

"The Volt’s lithium-ion battery caught on fire 3 weeks after being subjected to an 18 mi/h side pole test as part of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration’s (NHTSA) New Car Assessment Program (NCAP)."

Three weeks after the crash is a little concerning.

The document goes on to discuss the unique ways that testers and first responders will need to adapt - mainly centered around the high-voltage and chemical elements of the batteries.

They conclude with, "In fact, test results suggest that, as a class, these vehicles are more crashworthy than their conventionally powered counterparts." However the definition of 'crashworthy' should also be considered - I expect it means something similar to 'occupant survivability' and not necessarily 'an electro-chemical mess that will scour the bitumen off the road in a crash'.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm taking the long view - this is a very young technology that in some ways seems to be rushed to market, and crash safety is only one facet - there's also the accident responder side of things, the disposal and storage at the products end of life and after write-offs. I personally aren't a fan of the tech and see it as a means to an end, I would much rather see hydrogen power or something that's more versatile than having to hunt for a power point when you're on a road trip.

So to conclude, it seems that they are generally as safe as normal cars, but present difficulties in managing the accident scene, and in maintenance and integrity of the car after a crash. 

[tazzieman]

If Hammond was driving a 918 he would have walked away unharmed. They have properly tested booster seats borne of race experience.

[thumperson]

Which, I think, is the point of the thread. The occupant survival cells and battery protections will do the job most likely. It is just the cases where it does go wrong it will be messy, dangerous and unlike accidents people are used to seeing and assisting in. 

[Redracn]

 I would much rather see hydrogen power or something that's more versatile than having to hunt for a power point when you're on a road trip.

 

Hydrogen is just another word for extreme danger. You wont get me anywhere near anything using or storing Hydrogen.

[Shady Speedway]

We have been driving around for 100 years with a container full of a highly combustible liquid?

Back when it started. There was people on horses saying "it's too dangerous".

[wilburforce]

We have been driving around for 100 years with a container full of a highly combustible liquid?

Back when it started. There was people on horses saying "it's too dangerous".

You're not wrong! Imagine the fallout from the first autombile fire... having said that I need to remember to get a fire extinguisher

[tazzieman]

You're not wrong! Imagine the fallout from the first autombile fire... having said that I need to remember to get a fire extinguisher

Not a toy one. You have to be serious with car fires. 2kg minimum . You plus the other car.
Early cars killed because kids & animals ran out in front of them , plus brakes were an optional extra. Cars were designed to GO!

[TINGY]

 

Open minded skepticism is what scientists (but not entrepreneurs) are made of. I won't be buying a Tesla 'cos I'm saving up to go to the moon .

Moon schmoon, Mars is where it's at tazzie, keep up, no one is going back to the moon tazzie there's aliens

[tazzieman]

Moon schmoon, Mars is where it's at tazzie, keep up, no one is going back to the moon tazzie there's aliens

Mars is too hot and the potatoes taste like poo.

Nah I like my cheese & crackers! I remember watching the moon landing LIVE!

 

[TINGY]

I remember it as well

Our great grandchildren may be saying that they watched the first Mars landing.

[tazzieman]

I remember it as well

Our great grandchildren may be saying that they watched the first Mars landing.

Let's hope they don't use a battery powered rocket , wouldn't want it to do a Hammond on netflix.

Would you want to live on Mars? Seriously , it's not like they can create an atmosphere. You really would have to get used to eating poo flavoured chips as well.
And fanging around in your EV in a vacuum? At least they couldn't catch fire if they fell in a crater.