991 GT3 Market watch

[NBTBRV8]

I wonder what went wrong this this, engine?

 

https://www.pickles.com.au/damaged-salvage/item/-/details/CP-01-14--Porsche--911--Coupe/2252490953

[James P]

6 minutes ago, NBTBRV8 said:

I wonder what went wrong this this, engine?

 

https://www.pickles.com.au/damaged-salvage/item/-/details/CP-01-14--Porsche--911--Coupe/2252490953

Undercarriage damage i would guess 

[NBTBRV8]

Another new one on the market,  prices are definitely dropping. 

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2014-Porsche-911-GT3-991-Auto-MY14/OAG-AD-16750512

[edgy]

Agate Grey CS sold the other day, so seems like mid to low 2’s is the right money at the moment. 

[edgy]

Does anyone know what the delivery numbers are for the 991 RS? In both generations? 

[1q2w3e4r]

Circa 4,200-4,300 in the .1 and currently bit under 3k for the .2 RS' 

They've made about 11k GT3s across the .1 and a bit less of the .2 which is still in production - they are not rare. 

[NBTBRV8]

I was listening to The Smoking Tire Podcast yesterday where Doug Demiro was on, and Matt Farrah said exactly the same thing about them not being rare.  I thing he was referring to the 911 production run and I don't know if it is US or global figures, but he said that 40% of cars made were in fact GT cars.

[edgy]

28 minutes ago, 1q2w3e4r said:

Circa 4,200-4,300 in the .1 and currently bit under 3k for the .2 RS' 

They've made about 11k GT3s across the .1 and a bit less of the .2 which is still in production - they are not rare. 

That is a lot! 

Does anyone have an idea on Australian delivery numbers? 

[sleazius]

For us it only matters how many are RHD, which is typically 5% or less of the total. Then you have the whole ‘Australian Delivered’ saga on top of that.

[edgy]

5 minutes ago, sleazius said:

For us it only matters how many are RHD, which is typically 5% or less of the total. Then you have the whole ‘Australian Delivered’ saga on top of that.

Yup, I agree... I am just trying to understand how many we got, my gut feeling tells me it is a lot more than previous generations of RS? 

I have always wanted an RS, and I am playing with the idea of selling my 997 now, and picking up a 991.1 RS in the next 2-3 years when it reaches sub 300's, the cheapest is already at $360~ drive away at PCSS... I think I could use my money a bit more wisely in the interim. 

[sleazius]

1 hour ago, edgy said:

Yup, I agree... I am just trying to understand how many we got, my gut feeling tells me it is a lot more than previous generations of RS? 

I have always wanted an RS, and I am playing with the idea of selling my 997 now, and picking up a 991.1 RS in the next 2-3 years when it reaches sub 300's, the cheapest is already at $360~ drive away at PCSS... I think I could use my money a bit more wisely in the interim. 

Far as I can remember there were more 991.1 RS sold in Australia than bog standard GT3. I'd have no idea on the 991.2 however.

[1q2w3e4r]

Correct, there are more RS' than the standard GT3s in the 991 series in Australia.

I think they are great but may end up a bit of an orphan as the previous cars had the Mezger and the new .2 car has the cup car engine.   I'd have one, but at $300k - not 360 the dealers are asking.  May take 12 months or so to get there

[edgy]

Didn't know they sold that many here, wonder if the MY14 3.8 engine problems drove more sales to RS? Its weird that they had that much supply though, that historically has never happened! Still, a phenomenal car none the less... would love to park one in the garage, .2 would be cool, but doubt that'll get anywhere near attainable for me anytime soon! 

[sleazius]

16 minutes ago, edgy said:

Didn't know they sold that many here, wonder if the MY14 3.8 engine problems drove more sales to RS? Its weird that they had that much supply though, that historically has never happened! Still, a phenomenal car none the less... would love to park one in the garage, .2 would be cool, but doubt that'll get anywhere near attainable for me anytime soon! 

The number of RS was substantially higher too.

Sorry in advance to any 991.1 owners.....

All 991.1 GT3 and RS have the same engine problem afaik. It wasn't limited to just the 2014 model (although the 2014 had a range of other issues, including a 3rd gear that was spot welded and would let go). Was all to do with the shitty design of the oil return leading to oil starvation. This has never been fixed, which is why Porsche issued a 10yr warranty on the engines.

There are cars that have been mostly on the track that have had 4 engine replacements.

Do not keep one of these past the 10 year mark. It makes the IMS look like a non-issue. This car will be a white elephant eventually if it isn't already.

[Chris-p]

My understanding @edgy is that there were somewhere around 140 to 150 of the .1 RS delivered in Australia. I cannot remember where I read it but I did see it somewhere...

[edgy]

19 hours ago, sleazius said:

The number of RS was substantially higher too.

Sorry in advance to any 991.1 owners.....

All 991.1 GT3 and RS have the same engine problem afaik. It wasn't limited to just the 2014 model (although the 2014 had a range of other issues, including a 3rd gear that was spot welded and would let go). Was all to do with the shitty design of the oil return leading to oil starvation. This has never been fixed, which is why Porsche issued a 10yr warranty on the engines.

There are cars that have been mostly on the track that have had 4 engine replacements.

Do not keep one of these past the 10 year mark. It makes the IMS look like a non-issue. This car will be a white elephant eventually if it isn't already.

Since Rennlist is a bit of a minefield and I know you would have done lots of research prior to pulling  the trigger on the 991.2, do you have any threads bookmarked... I'd really like to get clued up on the 991 GT3 motors, being from the split crankcase fraternity I have not paid much attention to them till now! 

14 hours ago, Chris-p said:

My understanding @edgy is that there were somewhere around 140 to 150 of the .1 RS delivered in Australia. I cannot remember where I read it but I did see it somewhere...

That is a lot relatively speaking! 

[Chris-p]

Yes it is. I can clearly remember being told by someone at Porsche in early 2015 that the original allocation for Australia at the time was 15 .1 RS and 30 GT4's. that sure changed over a relatively short period of time.... 😳

[sleazius]

2 hours ago, edgy said:

Since Rennlist is a bit of a minefield and I know you would have done lots of research prior to pulling  the trigger on the 991.2, do you have any threads bookmarked... I'd really like to get clued up on the 991 GT3 motors, being from the split crankcase fraternity I have not paid much attention to them till now! 

That is a lot relatively speaking! 

Ok, so this is order of things working backward - far as I can tell the whole thing came about to get Rennlist to shut up:

So here is the announcement after a delegation of 991.1 owners from across the US (from Rennlist) met with the Porsche US brass and coerced them into offering the 10 year warranty which was subsequently adopted world wide:

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/1038118-991-1-gt3-10-year-120-000-mile-engine-warranty-update.html

Here is the post outlining the meeting with the brass:

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/1005204-991-1-gt3-cog-our-meeting-with-pcna-pag-plus-porsche-s-official-announcement.html

In the second post here you can see that Porsche attributes the problem to a metallurgical problem, but most of Rennlist attributes it to oil starvation because the design of the oil return is defective. Porsche have never copped to this however.

It is interesting that after this warranty was granted, all the stickies on Rennlist outlining the issue were removed, and the majority of people who were blowing up about it shut up about it. However this issue has not been resolved to this day.

Once Porsche stops honoring the warranty, all hell will break loose again on the forums. However by that point, the customers that Porsche cares about (those that buy the new cars) will have long since moved on. So it is a non-issue for them.

This was one of the main threads on the issue, but there are quite literally hundreds of them - its 181 pages long. Somewhere in there is a link to the number of cars who have had an engine replaced. Its a long list, and effects all of the engine revisions (even though it was claimed that the issue was fixed in the G series).

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/918481-how-many-15-16-gt3-s-have-engine-replaced-7.html

The 991.1 RS is more reliable than the bog standard GT3, but Rennlist RS owners also have a habit of saying 'RS is an RS' and protecting the brand. If you do some digging you'll find there have been engine replacements in the RS model too due to excessive oil consumption. But there are plenty of spruikers who claim that it has 'never happened' despite multiple evidence to the contrary.

My advice is buy one, drive it, flog it at 9 years into the warranty. Doubly so if the car is being used on the track.

[StevepGT3]

9 minutes ago, sleazius said:

Ok, so this is order of things working backward - far as I can tell the whole thing came about to get Rennlist to shut up:

So here is the announcement after a delegation of 991.1 owners from across the US (from Rennlist) met with the Porsche US brass and coerced them into offering the 10 year warranty which was subsequently adopted world wide:

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/1038118-991-1-gt3-10-year-120-000-mile-engine-warranty-update.html

Here is the post outlining the meeting with the brass:

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/1005204-991-1-gt3-cog-our-meeting-with-pcna-pag-plus-porsche-s-official-announcement.html

In the second post here you can see that Porsche attributes the problem to a metallurgical problem, but most of Rennlist attributes it to oil starvation because the design of the oil return is defective. Porsche have never copped to this however.

It is interesting that after this warranty was granted, all the stickies on Rennlist outlining the issue were removed, and the majority of people who were blowing up about it shut up about it. However this issue has not been resolved to this day.

Once Porsche stops honoring the warranty, all hell will break loose again on the forums. However by that point, the customers that Porsche cares about (those that buy the new cars) will have long since moved on. So it is a non-issue for them.

This was one of the main threads on the issue, but there are quite literally hundreds of them - its 181 pages long. Somewhere in there is a link to the number of cars who have had an engine replaced. Its a long list, and effects all of the engine revisions (even though it was claimed that the issue was fixed in the G series).

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/918481-how-many-15-16-gt3-s-have-engine-replaced-7.html

The 991.1 RS is more reliable than the bog standard GT3, but Rennlist RS owners also have a habit of saying 'RS is an RS' and protecting the brand. If you do some digging you'll find there have been engine replacements in the RS model too due to excessive oil consumption. But there are plenty of spruikers who claim that it has 'never happened' despite multiple evidence to the contrary.

My advice is buy one, drive it, flog it at 9 years into the warranty. Doubly so if the car is being used on the track.

Apparently the part numbers of the parts that have failed in the GT3 are the same as in the RS, the only difference that I can suss out is that the RS, being 4.0 compared to 3.8 has a 200rpm lower rev limit, and according to a particular expert, that has manufactured a fix,that has become temporarily redundant due to the extended warranty,  the ones that haven`t failed yet, eventually will by design.

[edgy]

What a cluster fuck...

[StevepGT3]

10 minutes ago, edgy said:

What a cluster fuck...

they should be made to put .2 engines in the .1`s

[sleazius]

2 hours ago, StevepGT3 said:

they should be made to put .2 engines in the .1`s

I agree but that wouldn't be feasible for a number of reasons.

[GC9911]

6 minutes ago, sleazius said:

I agree but that wouldn't be feasible for a number of reasons.

Financial loss to Porsche??? No one to buy the used .1 engines.

I find it really dissapointing in this age of technical brilliance & computer modelling that Porsche can’t even equal a ““mezger” of 20 odd years ago, as if the IMS wasn’t enough of a debacle, were no lessons learned. Bit like the VW dieselgate episode. Who sat around the boardroom table discussing “ what’s the single most brand destroying thing we can do?” Imagine if you employed idiots like this as your best people! 

[flamingporsche]

1 hour ago, GC9911 said:

as if the IMS wasn’t enough of a debacle, were no lessons learned. Bit like the VW dieselgate episode. Who sat around the boardroom table discussing “ what’s the single most brand destroying thing we can do?” Imagine if you employed idiots like this as your best people! 

Now the guy who ran the GT car division is in charge of the 911/718 division. Hope he doesn’t bring those blind spots in engine--eering to the frontline products?? 😐

[SS 3]

18 hours ago, StevepGT3 said:

they should be made to put .2 engines in the .1`s

Maybe that's how they shut the US Rennlist folk up?

Why can't they drop the .2 engine in the .1's profits must have been massive on these cars!!!!

Ive got a feeling that we haven't heard anywhere near the last of this i feel very sorry for current .1 owners especially the original purchasers if they still have them. At least if you buy one now you are aware of the risks and outcomes.

1) engine issue 

2) possible (correction)  accelerated devaluation 

Personally I really hope that Porsche blind side everyone and drop the .2 motor in the .1, FOC for original owners and a scaled fee  for subsequent purchasers from a said date.

In my experience the GT cars are what provide the aspiration for the brand they are the bullet proof homologation specials providing the engineering expertise that filters down to all of their products, to have this tarnished for what, ......do we say share holder satisfaction? Plain old greed to me! .......could be a major mistake in Porsche maintaining their positioning in the ever increasing competitive sports car market which could effect all Porsche owners!