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How fast is fast enough?


hugh

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I can only imagine, my 996 is arguably too much car for me. @James P was only saying the other day that he is only marginally quicker in his 996 cup car to what he used to lap his previous 997 GT3 (road car). I do believe that the 996/997 cars will always be considered the "narrow body" cars of the later water cooled era. 

I'll be sure to be in touch 12th May next year when I'm the big 35. :)

We can organise a playdate

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I’ll weigh in as someone who’s recently (re) joined the Porsche fraternity. I'll say from the get go, that i have no experience driving a modern day Porsche so my thoughts are purely speculation...

 I really think it depends what you want from your car. Speed, driver’s aids, 0-100 times etc will always come into it but, as Hugh touches on, depending on how often you plan to drive it, so does the reality of the day to day drive and how much comfort, warmth, compliance, AC, bluetooth, sat nav you want/need. If it’s a daily commuter I’d argue you may be more inclined to gravitate towards a later model car which, like it or not, will be pushing the envelope regarding performance (at least in comparison with the typical air cooled variety Porsche).

When weighing up my options, I landed on a 964 for a variety of reasons. Firstly it had been the dream machine ‘current shape’ when I first started obsessing over Porsches. But most importantly, it came down to what kind of driving experience I wanted. I wanted something a bit raw. I wanted the car to be small and I wanted to get into it and feel a bit like I was stepping into a time machine for a drive experience from another era. For me the 964 has sufficient power (my Jeep SRT would blow it away in a drag race) that I can drive on the twisties feeling like I’m really punting, listening to the engine howling at me. I can feel as though I’m having and old school performance drivign experience but also know that the car has a few little tricks up its sleeve to keep me in check. Would I like to eek some more horsepower out of it, or make improvements to suspension etc to improve its performance? Of course. But fundamentally I’m not looking to alter the experience or feeling of driving it.

Does this mean I wouldn’t want a new Porsche? Hell no. All of really just wants a car(s) we love. That love can take many forms and is based on more than just the on-road experience. Looking at a 911R in Duttons last week, I quickly developed an intense school-boy style crush that had me considering selling my house, moving my family into a caravan and buying the R in spite of it being a perfect example of a market speculation driven, unjustified overpriced car. I wanted it regardless. Do I think it would be a blast to drive? Sure. But I also wanted it so I could just stand in my garage at night, slack-jawed and ogling. This aesthetic consideration is definitely a big one.

Ultimately I wonder if it’s about perception of speed vs actual speed. When considering the top end of what Porsche has on offer with cars such as the GT3 et al I think there is a challenge that, no matter how fast they are, no matter how much grip they have, I wonder if to really enjoy them by pushing the limit requires driving at an actual speed that could be catastrophic should something go wrong. It’s easy to think we won’t put ourselves or our car in that situation because the car is just too good. Maybe so. But when I start to consider the driver coming around the twistie in the other direction, the oncoming motorbike rider using your lane as part of his corner line or the cyclist just over the blind crest (experiences I dare say most of us have had). Does an older Porsche (like many older cars) deliver a greater perception of speed and therefore a rewarding experince with less risk?

 

 

 

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 Does an older Porsche (like many older cars) deliver a greater perception of speed and therefore a rewarding experince with less risk?

Yes yes yes. 
And as momentum is proportional to velocity , the faster you go the faster you will stop when you hit a tree or other car. How fast is fast enough? It's an individual choice , partly based on the activity of the consequence gene.

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Not such thing as fast enough or too fast IMO. Try launch control in any car that does 0-100 in around 3s or less. Awesome experience and feeling. 

Sure, one could argue that vehicles these days require less work from the driver and are therefore less engaging. Fact is, they're still quicker in a straight line or at the track, they're more comfortable, more practical and they look great. I'd also argue that because you're going that much quicker, you still need to be really sharp. 

Older cars are fun to drive, no doubt. More engaging, perhaps. I remember Clarkson complaining that R34 GTRs have too much technology, they're considered raw these days! 

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Try launch control in any car that does 0-100 in around 3s or less. Awesome experience and feeling. 

Sure, one could argue that vehicles these days require less work from the driver and are therefore less engaging. Fact is, they're still quicker in a straight line or at the track, they're more comfortable, more practical and they look great. I'd also argue that because you're going that much quicker, you still need to be really sharp. 

Yeah i have to say that I don't buy the whole "The cars are so good that they're less engaging" argument. As you say, when you're hammering at high speed in a 991 I'm sure there's PLENTY of engagement!

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Yeah i have to say that I don't buy the whole "The cars are so good that they're less engaging" argument. As you say, when you're hammering at high speed in a 991 I'm sure there's PLENTY of engagement!

The point being that you can access that same level of engagement in an older/less capable car with a reduced risk of loosing your licence or a high speed accident. 

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The point being that you can access that same level of engagement in an older/less capable car with a reduced risk of loosing your licence or a high speed accident. 

Yes it's an interesting distinction to make. The engagement level is there at both ends of the spectrum. 

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Not such thing as fast enough or too fast IMO. Try launch control in any car that does 0-100 in around 3s or less. Awesome experience and feeling. 

Launch control is a great example of the car doing all of the hard work for the driver, no skill required there. ;) 

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Government and Car manufacturers are secretly working hand in hand to produce more powerful cars for us to use more petrol (more tax) and increase the temptation for unapproved actions :o 

But no, back to the discussion, how would you feel... if you owned a modern day super car, that didnt have any nanny aids, and you couldnt take it to the limit? Like I mean, Chris Harris on an empty Italian road in a LaFerarri sideways kind of limit? Youd feel stripped of your ego right? Car manufacturers know how to appeal to the masses, but thats not the majority of us. 
We seek the thrill, in being rewarded for our own direct hard work, its satisfying! Not knowing how to drive something, and setting the challenge to figure out the best way to match the car. Sure, you can always do that in a modern day super car, keep driving it with the assists on, until you get bored with the initial hit of a new car and the "lack" of power and acceleration and finally switch them off. But that feels more because than forward for me, because you never really got to understand the basis of the car, and then youll be slower before you get faster again (thats a given), but I dont know many people that will push over that barrier, rather just leaving it on and relying on it when shit hits the fan. 

I gained an appreciation for "slow-car" fast, when I sold my E30 and bought an Evo IX... sure it was a lot faster and that was fun for about the first 3 months... but then I realised, I wasnt actually ever in control, the diffs were working magic for me to distribute the power where it was best needed and ABS engaged if I had come in too fast, it was only going to end badly... with me in a tree when the systems one day were overstepped through my carelessness. I need something raw... I didnt care who fast I needed to go, but I needed something that would improve me as a driver.

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I’ll weigh in as someone who’s recently (re) joined the Porsche fraternity. I'll say from the get go, that i have no experience driving a modern day Porsche so my thoughts are purely speculation...

 

 

 

 

I guess it's all about perception, I'm seeing modern day Porsche starting in 1978 with the SC.

*(disclaimer... I am old)

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It's the perception that matters more.  It's why zipping through a forest on a mountain bike is more rewarding than going faster on a road bike but with clear air around.  It feels faster and more exciting even if it is objectively not (not talking about massive jumps)

i think the split between the camps here is going to reveal an age where you change priorities.   The older guys have all been young but the younger guys have not been old.  When you're young nothing will feel fast enough.

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TT TT TT TT TT 993.. but still maybe a bit fast

A GT3 with 4,5,6 gears taken out the gearbox

or elsewhere

Lotus Elise , Lotus Exige.. low to the ground , fast , handles ..will scare the shit out of ya , if you wanna know what a bean can feels like going at what feels like fast around corners and an ok speed, try one.  You feel everything .

I also gotta say ESKY but would go beyond my Xlow with a worked Pinto at least. Esky just brings or boy racer,rally cross driver feelings and more and most of all leaves me smiling every drive execpt the last one home ..when I broke it ;)

Minis right up there .. old ones for sure but newish ones ok . Will make you learn how to drive and especially corners.

Small cabins and low to the ground way to go.

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 @James P was only saying the other day that he is only marginally quicker in his 996 cup car to what he used to lap his previous 997 GT3 (road car).

Thats because i haven't got my head around driving the cup car yet, my mate in his same 996 cup car is 5-6 seconds faster than me.. I'm getting old & slow:huh:

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It's the perception that matters more.  It's why zipping through a forest on a mountain bike is more rewarding than going faster on a road bike but with clear air around.  It feels faster and more exciting even if it is objectively not (not talking about massive jumps)

i think the split between the camps here is going to reveal an age where you change priorities.   The older guys have all been young but the younger guys have not been old.  When you're young nothing will feel fast enough.

I dunno.. I had a run in a 950 horsepower supra, that was plenty bloody fast enough thanks :p

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I have only driven 4 Porsche automobiles and 3 of them have been 928s (the other was a Cayenne) so if anyone is willing to let me drive their newer or older one so I can make an informed comment it would be greatly appreciated :D

Until then I will say buy the base model and forget all the add ons, clearly we don't need them!

How would a SC feel with the same level of tyre grip and NVH levels as a 991, or conversely the other way around? 

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Launch control is a great example of the car doing all of the hard work for the driver, no skill required there. ;) 

That was the point.

As much as everyone rates their driving, I don't think any driver can achieve the same launch or 0-100 times without launch control assistance. What's more important? Launching the car all by yourself, or getting off the line quicker? 

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Sorry @huge but this thread's a bit dry, needs math and pics.

Yeah i have to say that I don't buy the whole "The cars are so good that they're less engaging" argument. As you say, when you're hammering at high speed in a 991 I'm sure there's PLENTY of engagement!

The point being that you can access that same level of engagement in an older/less capable car with a reduced risk of loosing your licence or a high speed accident. 

So, effectively it's about the thrill, which is some kind of situational speed x relative danger = "engagement" (fear, more like it) formula.

This;

stuttcars-991-gt2-rs-29-copyright-porsch

would feel unengaging at;

100185.jpg

but provide way too much "engagement" on;

greatoceanroad_1.jpg.aspx?width=1333&hei

I think we've entered the Matrix.

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That was the point.

As much as everyone rates their driving, I don't think any driver can achieve the same launch or 0-100 times without launch control assistance. What's more important? Launching the car all by yourself, or getting off the line quicker? 

You have really highlighted the point of this thread and that is to identify if people prefer to drive their cars or have them do all the hard work for them. You obviously seem to be in the latter camp and that's fine. Whilst this thread seems to be full of nostalgic's I know your not alone.  

Do you race cars by any chance? 

In relation to your questions above, I would prefer to be responsible for driving the car myself - if I couldn't drive it properly I wouldn't own it. Each to their own though. 

@KGB I've run out of likes but loving the graphic content - mwah! 

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That was the point.

As much as everyone rates their driving, I don't think any driver can achieve the same launch or 0-100 times without launch control assistance. What's more important? Launching the car all by yourself, or getting off the line quicker? 

Well obviously there are enough people don't care as much about being the fastest, and that is why Porsche reintroduced the manual to the GT3. PDK is always going to be quicker, but people want to feel more engaged...

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Well obviously there are enough people don't care as much about being the fastest, and that is why Porsche reintroduced the manual to the GT3. PDK is always going to be quicker, but people want to feel more engaged...

you must be the slowest Porsche owner on here mate, yet still have a substantial fan base :ph34r:

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Ooo I hope Mrs Jeff has the aloe ready for that sick burn ?

But seriously, can we get back to the bit about the Boxster being the best Porsche... I find it's the perfect mix of being fast enough without worrying about things getting silly, the only time I've wished for more power was when I thought I was dragging a bogan at the lights in a v6 commodore and it turned out to be SS v8... The only time I've wished for PDK was when I was stuck in traffic. ? I'll get me coat.

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