DIY ITB EFI

[Pfitz911]

Ok

Appreciate the advice. Im just going to do my simple DIY for now. This system has worked for many people for a good many years.

Im just trying to show people my learning curve on how to put one of these together, Im no expert!

When my ECU doesn't respond because it is clogged with oil and H2O, I will start a thread called "I should have listened to Redracn"

So, I thought Id fit my genuine durants on over the weekend. Massive holes from the flags. My paint isn't fantastic anyway, so I thought Id make a larger gasket to hide the holes!! (until I can respray). Being an Eddie Van Halen fan, I had and old sticker lying about, which further hid some discrepancies

008 by Dan Pfitzner, on Flickr

I think its great to add these little touches to make the car your own. I never want a perfect, immaculate car. Id be too scared to drive it!!

[LeeM]

 

I think its great to add these little touches to make the car your own. I never want a perfect, immaculate car. Id be too scared to drive it!!

 Nice one fella. Nice to read that. Shame a few people don't get it and say 'Oh you shouldn't have done that, as it devalues the car!' I'm getting it with the backdating process ??

I used a Heuer decal on mine, as I fitted some 935 mirrors to the corner window frame, and had to hide the horrid flag mirror holes. 

[Cheshire Cat]

Ok

Appreciate the advice. Im just going to do my simple DIY for now. This system has worked for many people for a good many years.

When my ECU doesn't respond because it is clogged with oil and H2O, I will start a thread called "I should have listened to Redracn"

I`m just curious for how many posts we might find when we google that sort of a problem :)))

I believe the main load gonna be TPS anyway?

[Redracn]

I`m just curious for how many posts we might find when we google that sort of a problem :)))

I believe the main load gonna be TPS anyway?

Doesn't matter if the main load is TPS as a MAP sensor when connected to the manifold will be doing air density (the air in the manifold) correction which is a very major correction to fueling. One way to bypass the line filling with fliud issue is to not connect it to the ECU. This way the onboard sensor corrects for ambient air density (Barometric) leaving the TPS as the only load ssensor. The biggest issue with this is of course that it does not work for Turbos and you can not bypass air around the throttle plate for cold idle or A/C idle up without knowing how much air is bypassed and compensating for it. With a MAP sensor these issues are partially handle by it. 

Another issue with ITB is that the reading from the MAP sensor can be horribly unrepresentative of the mean air density. This is due to resonances in the runner based on its length, throttle plate location and vacuum pickup point on each runner not to mention the induction pulsing. The resonant point of the runners also varies with air temperature (the air in the runner)

Luckly you can get away with a lot of crap both fuel and ignition wise otherwise Carbys and a lot of lower end ECU would not work. It is also surprising what a lot of people will tolerate or put up with especially when they do not know how much better it could be. 

[Cheshire Cat]

Doesn't matter if the main load is TPS as a MAP sensor when connected to the manifold will be doing air density (the air in the manifold) correction which is a very major correction to fueling. One way to bypass the line filling with fliud issue is to not connect it to the ECU. This way the onboard sensor corrects for ambient air density (Barometric) leaving the TPS as the only load ssensor. The biggest issue with this is of course that it does not work for Turbos and you can not bypass air around the throttle plate for cold idle or A/C idle up without knowing how much air is bypassed and compensating for it. With a MAP sensor these issues are partially handle by it. 

Another issue with ITB is that the reading from the MAP sensor can be horribly unrepresentative of the mean air density. This is due to resonances in the runner based on its length, throttle plate location and vacuum pickup point on each runner not to mention the induction pulsing. The resonant point of the runners also varies with air temperature (the air in the runner)

Luckly you can get away with a lot of crap both fuel and ignition wise otherwise Carbys and a lot of lower end ECU would not work. It is also surprising what a lot of people will tolerate or put up with especially when they do not know how much better it could be. 

The thing is he doesn`t have any manifold so the load is only on TPS. So as you mentioned earlier the MAP is a barometric correction only. BTW, what kind of ECU manufacturer are you referring to when you say "lower end ECU" and "The cheap/amateur designers"?

[Pfitz911]

Cheshire Cat

Just don't engage mate .

This is a simple DIY thread, but there'll always be someone who will tell you your not doing it right because they're King Dick.

Megasquirt is a very capable ECU for the street, that's certainly what Ive researched. It all becomes a bit of a wankfest if we let it.

 

 

 

[Redracn]

The thing is he doesn`t have any manifold so the load is only on TPS. So as you mentioned earlier the MAP is a barometric correction only. BTW, what kind of ECU manufacturer are you referring to when you say "lower end ECU" and "The cheap/amateur designers"?

From the quote I have copied  below I think you are wrong about the MAP sensor acting as barometric only in this case. 

Any ECU with a fitting for connecting an internal absolute pressure sensor to the engine should be considered low end/cheap/amature. How about you point out a current OEM ECU or a unit from top end reputable suppliers like Bosch, McLaren, Cosworth, Life Racing that use what is clearly a flawed sensing configuration. And don't start me on the rubbish connector on the ECU in the picture below. I could keep my mouth shut but the people on the forum deserve to be properly informed.

----------------

Two holes, one for the ECU harness and the other for the vacuum line to the ECU

024 by Dan Pfitzner, on Flickr

Routing the harness and vacuum line through the car into the engine bay was a pain with one person, but not too hard.

Next is mounting the throttle body vacuum ports and connecting the line from the ECU, and the lines from the ITBs

[Cheshire Cat]

Any ECU with a fitting for connecting an internal absolute pressure sensor to the engine should be considered low end/cheap/amature. How about you point out a current OEM ECU or a unit from top end reputable suppliers like Bosch, McLaren, Cosworth, Life Racing that use what is clearly a flawed sensing configuration. And don't start me on the rubbish connector on the ECU in the picture below. I could keep my mouth shut but the people on the forum deserve to be properly informed.

So, you clearly don`t feel the difference between "hardcore motorsport" or "f1 only" products and budget (or fancy if you will) street decisions? 

I don`t really understand why the topic starter even bothered connecting that MAP sensor (btw I`ve done the same for the same unknown reason) cos with the setup he`s got it`s rather a "well, let`s use it" than "I MUST use it" decision. Anyway, Megasquirt cost a tiny fracture of what you`ve mentioned above and you won`t believe but it does pretty much the same. 

Cheshire Cat

Just don't engage mate .

This is a simple DIY thread, but there'll always be someone who will tell you your not doing it right because they're King Dick.

Megasquirt is a very capable ECU for the street, that's certainly what Ive researched. It all becomes a bit of a wankfest if we let it.

 

 

 

Sorry for that,will try to keep it ti myself next time:)

[Redracn]

So, you clearly don`t feel the difference between "hardcore motorsport" or "f1 only" products and budget (or fancy if you will) street decisions? 

I don`t really understand why the topic starter even bothered connecting that MAP sensor (btw I`ve done the same for the same unknown reason) cos with the setup he`s got it`s rather a "well, let`s use it" than "I MUST use it" decision. Anyway, Megasquirt cost a tiny fracture of what you`ve mentioned above and you won`t believe but it does pretty much the same. 

Sorry for that,will try to keep it ti myself next time:)

There are cheaper end  ECUs which do not use an internal MAP sensor. There is a failure of a large majority of the so called aftermarket "street" ECU manufactures to learn how to get it right. If it worked, was cheaper and had no issues then the OEM ECU manufactures would do it as they try to save every fraction of a cent. But for the aftermarket it is not a cost issue as external MAP sensors are cheap and so are sealed automotive grade connectors.

But if you would rather argue a loosing case than be informed and perhaps make a better decision in the future then that is up to you but other informed people might ask the right questions and get a better result. 

"Megasquirt cost a tiny fracture of what you`ve mentioned above and you won`t believe but it does pretty much the same."

I can only assume from that comment that you have had no exposure to any of the better brands then.

[Pfitz911]

Thanks for that.

I was feeling pretty psyched to fit my EFI kit. It might not be to your liking, but you've successfully hijacked this thread.

I appreciate you must have greater knowledge about ECUs than myself, but this will do just fine for my little 2.7

I also assume you probably make more money in a day than I do a lifetime.

Enjoy your 997 turbo S

 

[Redracn]

Thanks for that.

I was feeling pretty psyched to fit my EFI kit. It might not be to your liking, but you've successfully hijacked this thread.

I appreciate you must have greater knowledge about ECUs than myself, but this will do just fine for my little 2.7

I also assume you probably make more money in a day than I do a lifetime.

Enjoy your 997 turbo S

 

I was not intending to hijack the thread but to point out a potential issue (while giving an explanation) so that yourself and others were informed and if the issue was addressed could achieve a better result. In your case this could be as simple as draining the tube every few months or mounting the ECU in a higher position so the fluid drained back to the manifold. But of course others had to attempt to discredit my free information ( BTW a lot of people have paid me a great deal of money for my knoweledge in relation to ECU's) without making a case as to why I was wrong. But hey if you along with a few others don't want to improve your knoweledge or get a better result then that is fine by me. 

Speculating about my income and bring up the car I drive? Really?

Enjoy your car as it is a Porsche after all and they are all great.

[Pfitz911]

Sorry mate

I shouldn't have made a judgement. Im sure youre a guru, but you were kinda bagging my setup. Anyway lets continue and be friends

I didnt go through the wiring process, but I have essentially used temp connectors just to get things working, then Ill use a more permanent solution

You know the feeling when you've done some major mechanical work and then it comes to starting the thing? NERVOUS is the word

First start is rough, but at least it starts!!! Lots of black smoke. My mate Mario is pulling on the throttle like its carbs, but apparently you shouldnt really do this.

Appears to be running VERY rich

007 by Dan Pfitzner, on Flickr

I have it idling much better now, and Ill post another video. Basically I reloaded the base map and run ALOT better. Im going to datalog some runs and send them to Al

 

try the link

[Raven]

its a live .................well done .

 

[Pfitz911]

Definitely running better now.

Now for the real tuning...

[Mike D'Silva]

Very cool!!

[Zelrik911]

Fantastic result.

Now comes the tedious part of fine tuning & cold/hot starts.

One tiny bit of advice is to keep a close eye on your oil - just in case you get a lot of petrol into the motor & diluting the oil.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Congrats mate, this is very exciting! 

[XLR8]

Stoked, and am watching closely. I'd love to put EFI on a '24. I think it would dramatically improve the smoothness (or lack of) of the old tractor/bus/van engine.

 

[Mike D'Silva]

Any updates to this?

Reason I ask is that I am wanting to go down the EFI route with my 3.0 that I am building.. 

Is it unwise to use a new system that isn't properly tuned or even tested, to run and breakin a brand new engine?

[Pfitz911]

Sorry Mike

Dont check this forum as often as I should...heres an update!

I would have loved to have documented everything Ive done along the way to show you all. I was really put off by the fella who bagged my setup earlier on. This forum should be for encouragement and by all means constructive council. I really didnt want some smart arse telling me my setup is not what they believe it should be. Im quite proud of what Ive achieved here.

Anyway I have learnt ALOT during this journey. Lots of pitfalls, lots of traps for someone who isnt experienced, but I am getting bloody close. Let me briefly tell you how I got to this point.

After installation, I initially ran with fuel only, getting those parameters right. Lots of datalogging, lots of fouled plugs!! I was getting frustrated as my AFRs seemed Ok but the car wasnt running right. Took injector rails off out of desperation some weeks later and injector 5 was totally blocked. No amount of tuning was going to get me anywhere with this scenario. Unfortunately looking at the bronzed inside of all other intakes, cylinder 5 was sparkling clean so it appears I got a dodgy injector from the getgo. I put new fuel filters on just a week before installing the ITBs, and my tank was clean. This cost me alot of time pissfarting around trying to tune. Just have to put this down to bad luck, Al sources his injectors from a trusted source (they are volvo 850 turbo injectors) and it appears this slipped through to the keeper as a dud. Shit happens.

Finally got fuel ok and drivable, but still farting/lean on deccel and bogging down on harder acceleration (have since worked out fuel cut settings and accel enrichment parameters)

NEXT is to take the dizzy out and Im running an accel EDIS coil pack for spark. Decided to mount this at the back of the engine bay for a cleaner look. Amazing how much space frees up with no distributor.

My good mate Mario helped big time with this, particularly the wiring. Im using a rothsport trigger/crank pulley and VR sensor and the ECU is controlling spark. Fired straight up after wiring it up but ran very lean, so much so that I had to triple the fuel cells. Obviously something was wrong, so we went back to Als original fuel table and settings, which the car seemed to like. We then worked from there as our starting point. Again lots of logging and making changes from the logs. Auto tune is a function on the tunerstudio programme, but I have to say I didnt like it. It made some pretty random changes to the fuel table, so I found the best was to log and review though the megalog program. Oh and I stuffed up an o2 sensor as well. Turns out tuning can be tough on these as well.Its unreal to be driving, have your laptop on the passenger seat and feel instantly the changes that youve made, whether it be fuel or spark. Seems weird driving a 1976 911 with a laptop in control!!

So how does it drive? Well it still needs a dyno. I dont think you can get it great without, but at this stage throttle response is crisp and it sounds bloody awesome. Power is up a bit from the CIS although its lacking some torque which Im hoping the dyno will sort out. Obviously cams, headwork and having compression greater than 8.5 to 1 will transform it. Im slowly building up my stock for a rebuild in the next couple years (I already have 9.5 JE pistons and 2.8 nickies )

Just quickly, I was really debating about my ignition options, and started a thread on pelican which attracted some great names. Bloody hell!! heated discussions to say the least. All I can say is the Accel coil pack packs a HUGE spark. We are going to muck around with wider gaps, and I definitely need better insulated leads. I couldnt imagine a bigger spark, but what do I know. The EDIS system is really quite straightforward and reasonably cheap (I say that loosely)

Im over in Washington this June for work, and I plan on catching up with Al. He has become a mate, and a guy you can definitely trust if you want to go down the ITB EFI track. I have a long list of parts to bring back for my suspension too...

Some eye candy videos...

003 by Dan Pfitzner, on Flickr

002 by Dan Pfitzner, on Flickr

004 by Dan Pfitzner, on Flickr

005 by Dan Pfitzner, on Flickr

 

 

 

[Peter M]

Dan,

Welcome back!  I'm pleased to hear your update and the progress you have made.

Please don't view Red's comments as being disparaging.  I've been on the receiving end of some of his comments and agree his writing style is very matter of fact.  But I've read enough of his posts to know he is genuine in wanting to assist and not see people waste their time chasing their tails.  Sometimes we can receive that as confronting but I'm certain that's not how it's intended. 

I hope both of you keep posting because I think this forum is so much richer for having sound technical information being posted regularly. Having good robust discussions around any posts to ensure we are talking facts rather than the all to common old wife's tales is just the icing on the cake.

Keep at it and keep posting.  Love ya work! 

[Redracn]

18 hours ago, Pfitz911 said:

Sorry Mike

Dont check this forum as often as I should...heres an update!

I would have loved to have documented everything Ive done along the way to show you all. I was  put off by the fella who bagged my setup earlier on. This forum should be for encouragement and by all means constructive council. I really didnt want some smart arse telling me my setup is not what they believe it should be. Im quite proud of what Ive achieved here.

Its interesting how many amateur mistakes were made. I wont cover them all but one big one is trusting a Lambda sensor reading when the engine has a missfire which it obviously had with injector 5 not working. The sensor will read lean so you add fuel expecting it to read richer but more cylinders start to missfire from being to rich and so the sensor reads even leaner. So lamba sensors are only a useful tool on engines that are firing perfectly. This also means that engines with big cams etc should not be lambda tuned when idling or on overrun etc. 

While I unserstand you love your system you should not confuse top shelf advice with bagging. It is entirely up to you to decide to ignore it etc. 

I co-founded a major top level ECU and data logging manufacturing company (I have sold up and no longer have any interest in it) and pretty much designed all the current electronic hardware they sell and programmed most of it as well as being the guy who sorted all the difficult problems. 

Someone other than yourself may have found my advice useful. 

[Stew F]

 @Pfitz911 when are you going to come out for a Sunday morning drive with us?  You've done a cracking job with the car. 

Another thing on the subject of ECU's. If anyone is interested, I know a guy in Mt Gambier who can rehash the OEM unit from a VY - VZ Commodore so it will work with virtually any modified or aftermarket injection setup on pretty much any car. You buy the ecu, give him all the info, and he does it.  He also has a complete machine shop and engine dyno.

[Pfitz911]

Hi Stew

Close mate. Havent seen you for a while. Youll be glad to know I have bought a spark plug tool!! So much easier

Thanks for your comments gents. Im loving the sound and the throttle response. Im also loving the knowledge Ive gained, and whilst I may decide to upgrade some things in the future, this is what I can afford at the moment. Im not one of those rich bastards who can have high end builds that some guru can oversee. Mistakes aplenty for sure, but isnt that how you learn?

Cheers

[Redracn]

Great you are having a go youself. Should be more of it but tuning mistakes can be costly so a cautious approach is always best. Look up cylinder wall washdown. Don't be put off by the issues with lambada sensors I have seen very experienced tuners make the same mistake.