The Oil Thread

[Timm]

Thanks for your response Timm.

This begs the question: If Porsche don't even specify the need for a 20w-60 in their viscosity tables, surely that infers that HPR30 is just as unsuitable as the HPR40 and HPR50?

(I'm basing this assertion on two assumptions:

1. Porsche knows best.
2. Your car is primarily street driven and therefore the Porsche recommended viscosity grades are appropriate.)

I agree that this is a huge and often unfathomable subject but think we should be able to came up with some reliable and safe "rules of thumb" that are based on some sort defendable logic that guide us to good oil selection in all situations.

The comment regarding the expectation that shear strength increases with increased viscosity is interesting.  Do you know that there is no guarantee that the Xw-60 grade oil you buy has any greater high temperature shear strength than a 15w-40 oil?  http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/sae-viscosity-grades/

That's a very valid point, and if I did only drive on the street, then I would probably would stick to a 20w-50 (or 15w-50 as recommended by Porsche int his climate). I do track my car year round though, and especially in summer the oil temp will be at a constant 100 degrees or so...something which never happens in a street car. So I think it helps to have a slightly thicker oil in that case so that it maintains the required operating viscosity, even during high temps and high loads. That said, I'm not really sure if the HPR30 is even a true 20w60 oil, or just a slightly thicker 20w50 with a marketing spin put on it...either way it has worked for me so far, so I think its alright.

Also I trust in Bruce's recommendations as he has been around these cars for years and will have seen first hand what the bearings and other wear surfaces look like in these cars under different conditions and with different oils. I think I'll be tearing my engine down again for an inspection in 5 years or so, and I'll be keen to see how the bearings look after using only one single type of oil over that whole time. I document every track day and oil change I do, so I'll be reporting back here with my results.

Interestingly, we ran HPR30 20w-60 in our S13 Silvia at Lemons this year. Nissan only recommends a 10w40 for their engine, but I decided to go for the thicker oil as it would be running hot for almost 12 hours at a time. The first day our engine spun a bearing in the first 2 hours, we sourced a second engine out of someones back yard and swapped it in that day. That engine ran the whole next day for almost 12 hours at full steam on one lot of HPR 30. Take that as you will...but it's a bit of anecdotal evidence that the HPR 30 is a pretty reliable oil.

 

[Peter M]

Ah, that's the point I'm trying to make, surely there is better ways of selecting oil rather than relying on "anecdotal evidence"?

I also don't discount the value of experience and when on a good thing, stick to it.  Particularly with regard racing which can be outside some manufacturer's data set. 

However being reliant on a few trusted individuals to dispense reliable advice surely isn't a good thing.  What happens when Bruce wins the lottery and no longer wastes his time with P cars as he is too busy grooming parrots or whatever takes his fancy?  Surely there is an objective and reliable method to step us through the oil selection process that can be applied in any situation when our favourite drop is temporarily out of stock and we need something immediately?

I haven't anything against Penrite either and in fact use it in my own car and my Ducati's.  I like how it's stocked virtually everywhere, the 10 litre containers are convenient and if you're willing to look at the spec sheets you can often get a very suitable oil cheaper then any other alternatives.  

 

[ANF]

I keep writing out answers, but is there one! No!

Buy a good quality oil that suits your car. The 20W-60 is Recommended by Penrite to suit 20W-50! They know oils, good enough for me

 

 

[Buchanan Automotive]

Ah, that's the point I'm trying to make, surely there is better ways of selecting oil rather than relying on "anecdotal evidence"?

I also don't discount the value of experience and when on a good thing, stick to it.  Particularly with regard racing which can be outside some manufacturer's data set. 

However being reliant on a few trusted individuals to dispense reliable advice surely isn't a good thing.  What happens when Bruce wins the lottery and no longer wastes his time with P cars as he is too busy grooming parrots or whatever takes his fancy?  Surely there is an objective and reliable method to step us through the oil selection process that can be applied in any situation when our favourite drop is temporarily out of stock and we need something immediately?

I haven't anything against Penrite either and in fact use it in my own car and my Ducati's.  I like how it's stocked virtually everywhere, the 10 litre containers are convenient and if you're willing to look at the spec sheets you can often get a very suitable oil cheaper then any other alternatives.  

 

Anecdotal evidence is an interesting phrase when it comes to religion, i mean oil. But on a serious note we have been dealing with the oil subject for a very long time. I started working with Bruce in 2000, Bruce started this business back in 1994 and previously worked at a Porsche Dealership in Sydney from late 1976   .  At Scuderia Veloce in 1976-79 they were using a Castrol GTX 20w50 and were having oil consumption issues, low oil pressure and premature turbo failures in the 3.0 and 3.3 turbos & 1979 924 Turbo's as they have higher core temp then the equivalent P cars when driver hard on the street( Note } this was not the fault of the Castrol oil back in the 1970's as it was just not up to that particular task at that time in history which was 40 years ago but NOT now . Scuds swapped over to Valvoline Turbo V in about late 1979/early 1980 and the issues were gone. No-one really cared why at the time and from then on it was business as usual. Valvoline later changed the name of Turbo V to GP50 and the dealership continued to use this up to and a little beyond when Bruce left the Porsche Dealership to start his own independent Porsche garage. As you could imagine Bruce continued to use GP50 at his shop as it had worked so well, why would you change?

Note } The Valvoline Turbo V 20w-50 in 1980 was the first easily available high oil temp tolerant engine oil that at the time was a new development & it made a big difference & I am quite sure Castrol would have followed suite not long after , remember this was nearly 40 years ago & turbo cars( with their turbo related issues ) were rare 

As time goes by this Porsche Dealership changed their oil supplier to another manufacturer( Even Porsche Germany changed from Shell to another oil company in the late 1990's) and this is when the shit hit the fan in regards to the older Porsche's . I want to make clear now that the oil the dealerships were using were specified for the cars current at the time and applied ( to the then revised to the oil recommended even for the early cars , this has changed again since ) . This oil( so called fully synthetic) was to be the new bees knees to prevent all wear and extent oil change intervals. Although this was not evident over night that some there was to be exaggerated wear, there were some signs at the time which were quickly ignored by both the car manufacturer and the oil manufacturer. First( in the older Porsches ) was the oil light flickering on at idle whilst in traffic, give a warm day in the city and this is what would happen. In fact the 928 digital dash use to glow red with the term Oil Pressure insignificant. Customers were quickly told that this is normal and to be expected. Really? an engine safety device designed by the vehicle engineers being ignored? within the year and so on engines on the current crop and early cars were being dismantled by independents & some dealers because of wear. At the time the early cars were being discounted as they already had quite a few kms on them (lets say 100,000kms plus) and the wear was to be seen as normal. It was only after another 15,000kms( meaning 15,000kms after new valve guides) and the engines were being torn down again and the same wear seen that it was known there was now an issue. It was not only dealerships seeing this but also independent Porsche garages that switched oil so that warranty was not to be voided. We had other specialists garages at the time calling around seeing if this wear was a common occurrence, The wear was evident within these shops and dealerships that had been using this specific oil. We had seen none of this with any car we had been working on and changing the oil with. We had also not changed supplier yet all the others had.

At this point We were very interested in oils and specifically oils for the Porsche's that we work on, being 70's 80's 90' and now a few 00''s 911's 944' and 928's. Around about 2005 we did a study of our cars, i think from memory it was about 400 cars that we would work on each year. Whilst the majority was the 928 this also gave us a good chance to check thrust bearing clearance for wear. Now the good, or not so good news is that if any of these engines had seen these thin oils from about 1996- circa 2004 one of the tell tails was the thrust bearings on the 928 and the camshaft/valve guide/ cam-chain/ tensioner pads/hydrollic lifter faces on both the models. The 911 had extreme valve guide wear, rocker shaft and cam lobe in as little as 15,000kms. The wear was being seem particularly were only splash was happening, i.e. no oil pressure. Yet throughout this entire time we had not lost one engine, we had not seen any discernible wear on any engine that we had been changing the oil on, we had no wear on any camshafts/ lifters, mains, big ends,( con rod bearings). I say this as of course we did still see a small amount of valve guide wear on air cooled 911's past the 150,000kms mark but this is normal and to be expected. We have also previously documented a few of our tear downs on line. one in particular was a 1990 928 GT at 344,000kms it was being pulled apart for oil leaks. Bruce had known this car since his days at Scuds so we knew the entire history of the car as we had taken over servicing from the dealership. Once apart it was in great condition, again no camshaft wear, lifter faces were perfect, bores and pistons were great, mains/ big-ends were also in great condition. On assembly we did replace the chain tensioner pads and chain and the chain stretches. Throughout of small study we found that every car we had been changing the oil or the cars that had evidence of not being changed with the oil the dealer was using at the time had no thrust bearing wear. This means that the thrust being clearance was with factory spec of 0.110-0.032 for 928's up to 1985 and 0.006-0.192 for 1986-1995 928's. Now not every car that ran the dealer approved oil and similar oils such as 5w40, 10w40 and one specific 15w50 had a wear problem, but they were the only ones that had the issues. IT is true that the early formula change back in the late 90's had companies chasing less emission polluting oils. Formulas were changed to reduce ZDDP and increase Boron chasing ACEA ratings. It proved to be a disaster and of such these manufactures changed their formula within the next 5-10 years.

On another note with our own Porsches we have pushed them pretty hard, particularly our track 951. It has an engine from a 944 S2, 3.0ltr twin cam 16 valve. custom pistons and rods, standard cams/ crank  mains and big ends. Strapped to the side of it is a big turbo running 24psi on E85 for lap after lap.( 580+ HP ) In fact this engine has done 6 years of racing. It has also been apart many times for head gasket changes and inspections and we are yet to see any wear, and naturally this engine has a very high oil film strength oil with a min viscosity of 25w-60 

The thing to remember here is that this big wear problem that Porsche had was actually trusting their recommendations not the individuals around the world that have real world experience with these engines. Do you think that some new graduate in the Porsche oil testing facility would not suggest a 5w-40 or similar for last century Porsches? And lets say he gets the recommendation wrong, do you think he will be liable for any wear like what happened late last century? i don't think so, just like in the lat 90's early 2000's the owners will be held to pay for any issues that may arise with their cars.

So in essence for the road going last century Porsche cars , be it air cooled , 928, 944 / 951 , 968 , 944S & S2 , its high oil film strength 20w-50 & Nothing else

For the same above Porsches listed but are going to the track for club Super sprints etc , Min Viscosity of a very high oil film strength 25w-60

There is so much more we have seen & experienced 

Regards

Sean

[944s2cab]

Great post Sean, 

I run HPR30, would you suggest running Synthetic 20W-60 (penrite Racing 20) for the occasional trackday/supersprint meet instead?

cheers

Steve

[T-Man]

I hope it's cheaper cos LIQUIMOLY is plenty of pesos per litre! I called autobarn... $105 for 5L ....ouch!

Not available at Autobarn etc........but still about $220 for 12 quarts!

[Zelrik911]

Thank you Sean

Your experience and wise words confirm some of my suspicions (my motoring covers  the years you have described), I dont trust any 'new' brand of oil and am a bit cautious about the older brands too.

We cant drive fast here in Australia anymore like we used to - but they still can in USA so this is where I look for advice on what is presently good or bad and I ignore the passionate zealots who preach about their favourite oil.

Even expensive oil is still the cheapest cost of motoring.

OK, so its $200 for me to do my oil change on a 993 donk  in the weekend warrior - but I wouldn't jeopardise a $40K engine to save $150.

 

[Peter M]

So in essence for the road going last century Porsche cars , be it air cooled , 928, 944 / 951 , 968 , 944S & S2 , its high oil film strength 20w-50 & Nothing else

Hi Sean,

Thanks for a very detailed comment.

What I'm really interested in is your process of selecting the right oil based on the API or ACEA certifications which would be generally the second criteria after narrowing down the possibilities based on viscosity grade.

Let's imagine you're on holiday in a foreign country in your last century car.  You need to do an oil change but are unfamiliar with the brand names and have no internet access to do research.  The options available on the service station shelf are:

1) 20w-50 API SL/CF

2) 20w-50 API SN/CF

3) 20w-50 API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B4

4) 15w-50 API CI-4 Plus/SL, A3/B4

Which one do you select and why?

(When you think of it, the scenario above isn't that foreign and is played out in every Supercheap and Repco store everyday!)

 

Thanks

Peter

 

PS:  Did ANYONE find the thought of Bruce grooming parrots amusing?

 

[OZ930]

Great write up Sean from someone with real experience.  Now for a slight hijack.

Any thoughts on oil additives such as Molybond (if still available), Promar, Wynns Friction Proofing etc. Are these worth while or just smoke and mirrors ?

 

[TINGY]

Ah, that's the point I'm trying to make, surely there is better ways of selecting oil rather than relying on "anecdotal evidence"?

I also don't discount the value of experience and when on a good thing, stick to it.  Particularly with regard racing which can be outside some manufacturer's data set. 

However being reliant on a few trusted individuals to dispense reliable advice surely isn't a good thing.  What happens when Bruce wins the lottery and no longer wastes his time with P cars as he is too busy grooming parrots or whatever takes his fancy?  Surely there is an objective and reliable method to step us through the oil selection process that can be applied in any situation when our favourite drop is temporarily out of stock and we need something immediately?

I haven't anything against Penrite either and in fact use it in my own car and my Ducati's.  I like how it's stocked virtually everywhere, the 10 litre containers are convenient and if you're willing to look at the spec sheets you can often get a very suitable oil cheaper then any other alternatives.  

 

Hey Pete what are you using?

[vl gra]

Hi Sean,

Thanks for a very detailed comment.

What I'm really interested in is your process of selecting the right oil based on the API or ACEA certifications which would be generally the second criteria after narrowing down the possibilities based on viscosity grade.

Let's imagine you're on holiday in a foreign country in your last century car.  You need to do an oil change but are unfamiliar with the brand names and have no internet access to do research.  The options available on the service station shelf are:

1) 20w-50 API SL/CF

2) 20w-50 API SN/CF

3) 20w-50 API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B4

4) 15w-50 API CI-4 Plus/SL, A3/B4

Which one do you select and why?

(When you think of it, the scenario above isn't that foreign and is played out in every Supercheap and Repco store everyday!)

 

Thanks

Peter

 

PS:  Did ANYONE find the thought of Bruce grooming parrots amusing?

 

Yes i did. That was the only thing i took out of your post haha. I think you hit the nail on the head and that is what he is doing this weekend  

[ANF]

Hey Pete what are you using?

Olive oil....

[tazzieman]

Olive oil....

Olive oil was recommended by the ancients. and is available overseas PeterM if you need some.
Coconut oil has been discredited by the experts. It was always a marketing thing.

[Buchanan Automotive]

Hi Peter,

why are you simply going of ACEA or API ratings. Just because something is new does not make it any better , as an example you can see above where i commented on the introduction of emission control (also cat friendly) oils back in 1995-1996. Sure they protected your cat a little better and possible burn better without as many emissions but completely destroyed your engine? counter productive both to the owners wallet and to the point that how many emissions are emitted in producing the new parts for that stuffed engine? In this case the older SH was superior to the newer SJ for our engines. Here is the other catch, one of the main reasons the newer oils were introduced was to prolong the life of the catalytic converter, ZDDP (Zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate) was seen to have detrimental effects on its life and was severely reduced from previous ratings. For example 1800ppm back to 550ppm from SH to the new SJ. The oil anti wear package was then changed to Boron in hope that it could lubricate as well as the reduced ZDDP, hint Boron didn't work in flat tappet/ high wiping load engines. Catch 2, Porsche catalytic converters from the 80's did not suffer from premature failures with high ZDDP oils, but motor vehicle companies chasing the penny producing utterly rubbish catalytic converters did. So from this we can attain that if manufactures produces quality products we would not have been put through this pain. Engineers chasing problems that were self inflicted, but again the customer paid, not the manufacturer or oil company that specifically recommended the oil for their vehicle.

As far as your list goes CI-4 is out straight away. Even though diesel oils run a great percentage of ZDDP and a good overall AW package they also run a lot of detergent. Detergents reduce the effectiveness of ZDDP significantly over time( oil change to oil change) and it also foams on higher revving engines.

API and ACEA SN/CF are basically the same thing, one is rated via the american petroleum institute and the other is the european equivalent i forget the exact name at the moment. Now as it stands the older rating SL allowed the use of higher ZDDP whereas for an oil to meet the requirements of SN they must lower the ZDDP. This is where it gets interesting though as if a oil manufacturer produces a higher weight oil say 20w50 compared to a 5w40 under the same rating i.e. SN, it is allowed higher levels of ZDDP and in the SN that includes another important addition of M02 (moly). M02 combined with ZDDP is a multiplier of some sort, again for example the later SN 20w50 may be limited to say 950ppm of ZDDP, clearly not enough on its own but when combined with M02 500ppm its the equivalent of having an oil with 1600ppm (approx) of ZDDP. It also only degrades at the same rate as on oil with a straight base of ZDDP. 

Also remember that just because an oil has a SN rating which may allow up to 950ppm of ZDDP does not mean that it actually has it, it may be 700 or 200. you must look for the spec sheet or have an analysis done if a spec sheet is unavailable.

So what does this say about going off the ratings of an oil, in reality not a hell of a lot. Its not enough to just pick one off the shelf and hope for the best and i guess that would be why some people seek the advice of others that have the hands on experience. These ratings are more to do with emissions protection then actual lubrication value. I know the environment is important but so it keeping the cars running sustainably for a long period of time because you must also look at the environmental impact recreating parts not just the emissions out the tail pipe.

To be quite honest how many times have you taken your classic car on holidays in another country and required an oil change? Internet is everywhere these days so thats a bit invalid. There is a lot of experience out there if you want to find it and you can ignore any of it if you wish. Thats completely up to the individual. Lastly i would also say that choosing an oil based solely on its rating would not be my 2nd criteria either, in fact it would not be in any of my criteria as it does not tell me how well a particular oil lubricates under a particular circumstance, in our case high wiping loads with flat tappet design.

Now you know how it came to be that we run a particular oil and why. I guess it would only be fair to ask what oil you would recommend others to run and how you came about selecting that product

Regards

Sean

PS:  Did ANYONE find the thought of Bruce grooming parrots amusing?

 

Yes i did. That was the only thing i took out of your post haha. I think you hit the nail on the head and that is what he is doing this weekend  

Well he is currently rebuilding a 964 3.6 while i sit here and type. But i have some wise words from the parrot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXYZttxunPw

[tazzieman]

But i have some wise words from the parrot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXYZttxunPw

That is something I have learnt since the interwebs started

[TINGY]

Almost pissed myself watching that video

[tazzieman]

Almost pissed myself watching that video

Parrot has angry owner. Mind you , we can all identify with the parrot's feelings.

 

[Buchanan Automotive]

Great post Sean, 

I run HPR30, would you suggest running Synthetic 20W-60 (penrite Racing 20) for the occasional trackday/supersprint meet instead?

cheers

Steve

Whilst the penrite racing is a little less on detergent and higher on zinc (there is such a thing as too much) i would not see any problem running the HPR30 for sprints.. less detergent means more frequent oil changes. 

Great write up Sean from someone with real experience.  Now for a slight hijack.

Any thoughts on oil additives such as Molybond (if still available), Promar, Wynns Friction Proofing etc. Are these worth while or just smoke and mirrors ?

 

They are actually full of additives as branded but how much is needed is the important thing. We have had a few tested to check for compatibility. Again as above there is such a thing as too much of a good thing is bad. In the case of additives such as Zinc its up around the 2400ppm where as you increase the value it actually accelerates wear. I don't have the actual figure on hand but we do have a paper by the university of Western Ontario about the correlation between ZDDP and wear. I will find it and let you know. Based on this if you do have the information, there is a place for such additives. 

Thank you Sean

Your experience and wise words confirm some of my suspicions (my motoring covers  the years you have described), I dont trust any 'new' brand of oil and am a bit cautious about the older brands too.

We cant drive fast here in Australia anymore like we used to - but they still can in USA so this is where I look for advice on what is presently good or bad and I ignore the passionate zealots who preach about their favourite oil.

Even expensive oil is still the cheapest cost of motoring.

OK, so its $200 for me to do my oil change on a 993 donk  in the weekend warrior - but I wouldn't jeopardise a $40K engine to save $150.

 

Your spot on, oil is the cheapest maintenance you can perform on a vehicle.

[Peter M]

Hi Peter,

• API and ACEA SN/CF are basically the same thing, one is rated via the american petroleum institute and the other is the european equivalent i forget the exact name at the moment.
• M02 combined with ZDDP is a multiplier of some sort, again for example the later SN 20w50 may be limited to say 950ppm of ZDDP, clearly not enough on its own but when combined with M02 500ppm its the equivalent of having an oil with 1600ppm (approx) of ZDDP. It also only degrades at the same rate as on oil with a straight base of ZDDP. 
• So what does this say about going off the ratings of an oil, in reality not a hell of a lot. Its not enough to just pick one off the shelf and hope for the best and i guess that would be why some people seek the advice of others that have the hands on experience.
• Lastly i would also say that choosing an oil based solely on its rating would not be my 2nd criteria either, in fact it would not be in any of my criteria as it does not tell me how well a particular oil lubricates under a particular circumstance, in our case high wiping loads with flat tappet design.

Regards

Sean

 

Hi Sean,

Appreciate your time to answer my question regarding API and ACEA oil certifications.

I've distilled down your response to the key points of interest to me above.  Done as a quote for convenience only.  Yes, I acknowledge the foreign holiday without internet access was an unlikely scenario but I was interested in teasing out your specific thoughts on certifications and thought this was a practical way to do so thank you for playing along.

One last question if I may?

With oil selection based on in service experience - either first hand or via internet - how do you prepare for the inevitable reformulations that happen with your favourite blends?  As an example, I recall Valvoline Max Life 20w-50 was reformulated from API SL to SN a year or so ago.  How do you assess whether to continue using or recommending it?  Is it simply a check of the ZDDP and Moly content to see if its cumulatively is still over say 1200ppm to continue to be give the green light? 

 

Hi Other PFA's,

Given the tone of some of your responses some may think I'm here for mischief but I assure you I'm asking questions for no other reasons but to better understand and selfishly improve my own practices.

 

Thanks

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Buchanan Automotive]

Always happy to play along, seems you may not be though. Whats your thoughts on API and ACEA certifications? whats your method of oil choice? To be honest Peter you do seem to be trolling a touch, hard to gauge properly as we are just sitting behind a keyboard. happy to through out a snide comment about a poor unsuspecting parrot?

 

As for reformulation, we have samples tested and decide which way to move based on results and requirements.

Regards

Sean

[TINGY]

Always happy to play along, seems you may not be though. Whats your thoughts on API and ACEA certifications? whats your method of oil choice? To be honest Peter you do seem to be trolling a touch, hard to gauge properly as we are just sitting behind a keyboard. happy to through out a snide comment about a poor unsuspecting parrot?

 

As for reformulation, we have samples tested and decide which way to move based on results and requirements.

Regards

Sean

Hi all, Peter does have a probing mind and knowing him quite well now i understand where he is coming from. It is hard to sometimes see someone taking the piss on these forums, that's all it is.

Anyone who knows him will say the same thing, maybe he is just feeling us out because whatever oil he is using at the moment, some of it seems to be expelled out of the exhaust pipe and onto whomever is following, maybe soon he will be sounding us out about pricing so he can find some cheaper oil to pour through the 911

[Peter M]

Nah Sean, I leave my trolling to the 996 GT3 thread!

I've asked a lot of questions on the API and ACEA certifications in this thread as usually we just talk viscosity and ZDDP and was wondering if anyone considers the certifications as a useful guide.  Consequently I've appreciated your responses.

Oh, the attempt at parrot humour (and foreign travel) has been an attempt to keep things conversational in tone as like you said earlier, things can deteriorate quickly in these types of threads.

 

My views?

1. I think the ACEA and API certifications are useful tools, particularly in informing me of what NOT to use such as any of the ILSAC ratings, anything pre-SG or anything labelled C3
2. I prefer to see at least 1000pm of Zn and preferably 1200ish.
3. I want high SAPS.
4. I want at least a HTHS of 3.5 mpas.
5. I'm not adverse to mixed fleet oils.
6. I get annoyed when the manufacturers don't supply specific HTHS info.
7. I'm happy to see a ACEA A3/B4 certification as it supports point 3 and 4.

Currently using?

I've tried to rationalise the oil used in my water cooled and air cooled Ducatis and my 3.2 to a single type and applying the above criteria has identified Penrite HPR Diesel 10 as a very convenient option that I've just started using this year.   

 

 

   

Hi all, Peter does have a probing mind and knowing him quite well now i understand where he is coming from. It is hard to sometimes see someone taking the piss on these forums, that's all it is.

Anyone who knows him will say the same thing, maybe he is just feeling us out because whatever oil he is using at the moment, some of it seems to be expelled out of the exhaust pipe and onto whomever is following, maybe soon he will be sounding us out about pricing so he can find some cheaper oil to pour through the 911

LOL, you could say more Aspergers than piss taking.  In this thread anyway!

Yes, my latest 911 engine is a little tired so 76 bucks per 10 litres is also an attraction.

[TINGY]

1. I think the ACEA and API certifications are useful tools, particularly in informing me of what NOT to use such as any of the ILSAC ratings, anything pre-SG or anything labelled C3
2. I prefer to see at least 1000pm of Zn and preferably 1200ish.
3. I want high SAPS.
4. I want at least a HTHS of 3.5 mpas.
5. I'm not adverse to mixed fleet oils.
6. I get annoyed when the manufacturers don't supply specific HTHS info.
7. I'm happy to see a ACEA A3/B4 certification as it supports point 3 and 4.

What is this boffin talk of which ye speak, i think i need to catch up on some light reading.........not

[OZ930]

What is this boffin talk of which ye speak, i think i need to catch up on some light reading.........not

I got lost too, so I searched and found this very helpful

http://www.api.org/~/media/files/certification/engine-oil-diesel/publications/mom_guide_english_2013.pdf

[Peter John]

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/viscosities/20W-60/classic-v-dub same same? Just fancy sticker?