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2 hours ago, mc968cs said:

I was up at challenge Bathurst a few weeks ago. Amateur / club level event.   Literally hundreds of sports cars and maybe (a total guess) 75 Porsche in the events including the Porsche clubs aus sub event. Newer  GT3 (991) in droves, boxsters, plenty gt4. All road cars.   Yet what jumped out was almost no 996 GT3 or 997 GT3. I think 2 x 996 GT3 and 1- 2 x 997 GT3 were there. I think there were more 997 turbos than 997 GT3 on track.  

So….curious what people think - what’s  happened to them? Really interested to understand this. 

(Is 996 and 997  getting older and too expensive to track, or now in storage as all think worth so much?  Or?   I don’t know - It is a material shift from even just 3 years ago. )

I think the people who buy them new track them and use them as intended.  When the new stuff comes out, they move on to that and use it for the same purpose.

The older stuff hits the second hand market and most of it is tucked away and used on weekend drives and not really on the track days, club events.  I think the buyer pool is (largely) different, which I find funny as you end up with the "never tracked" pieces in the sales adverts.  I think pretty much every 993RS must have seen a race track at some point, hasn't hurt the prices of those!

The old stuff is plenty capable and its not (in my experience) expensive to track - I've run a 996TT for over a decade and had a 7/2 and 997.2TT and none of them have been expensive to run over a number of years. 

 

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A 991 or 992 is still more expensive than a 996 or 997 even at current market prices. No reason for people to be hiding 996/997’s and 991/992’s to be out and about. So can’t really chalk a lack of 996/997 gt3’s being out and about to price. 

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3 hours ago, mc968cs said:

I was up at challenge Bathurst a few weeks ago. Amateur / club level event.   Literally hundreds of sports cars and maybe (a total guess) 75 Porsche in the events including the Porsche clubs aus sub event. Newer  GT3 (991) in droves, boxsters, plenty gt4. All road cars.   Yet what jumped out was almost no 996 GT3 or 997 GT3. I think 2 x 996 GT3 and 1- 2 x 997 GT3 were there. I think there were more 997 turbos than 997 GT3 on track.  

So….curious what people think - what’s  happened to them? Really interested to understand this. 

(Is 996 and 997  getting older and too expensive to track, or now in storage as all think worth so much?  Or?   I don’t know - It is a material shift from even just 3 years ago. )


I think 2018 was the last year I ran the club super sprints, and there was plenty of earlier cars still at that point in time, yourself included… has that changed?
 

I restored the 997 in 2019 and whilst it was damn near perfect… it actually ruined the ownership experience for me! 😂 I preferred it all peppered up and patina’d… So I sold it last year to buy the unicorn to me 996 RS… which will be running PCNSW super sprints next year. 
 

I had noticed a lot of the recently acquired owners are of a different persuasion, they often have zero interest in tracking the car, I also know people that sold up 996 & 997 because they became too valuable to track. 
 

To me that is a great shame, but a common theme amongst transient owners, they end up selling because they never enjoyed the car… which to fully understand, you need to drive it on its limit… kind of like the G Wagen, once you take it off road the lightbulb💡 moment happens and you understand what the car is all about. 

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50 minutes ago, cafe_racer said:

A 991 or 992 is still more expensive than a 996 or 997 even at current market prices. No reason for people to be hiding 996/997’s and 991/992’s to be out and about. So can’t really chalk a lack of 996/997 gt3’s being out and about to price. 

Agree that a 991/992 is still more expensive, however the numbers available are vastly different.  It would seem to me that if someone is prepared to spend the money for a 'modern' GT3 and then be able to track it, would generally seem to be a toy. 

Something they can afford to splash on and should it be damaged in an incident, can be relatively easily replaced as production numbers were far greater. 

Not so if you crash a 996 (or 997). 

 

49 minutes ago, edgy said:

I had noticed a lot of the recently acquired owners are of a different persuasion, they often have zero interest in tracking the car, I also know people that sold up 996 & 997 because they became too valuable to track. 

Someone buying an older model GT car may be buying as their 'dream' purchase. Possibly something they could not buy back when they lusted over them new. 

So now when they can finally purchase one, it is cherished and risking damage on a track is too high a risk.

 

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There is another factor at play here too. Once something starts appreciating in value it becomes an asset (opposed to a toy). New buyers get in the game hoping to benefit from the uplift and won’t risk their investment. That makes the remaining cars scarcer and only fuels the uplift further. Combined with low rates and before you know it you’re in an asset bubble.

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22 minutes ago, sleazius said:

There is another factor at play here too. Once something starts appreciating in value it becomes an asset (opposed to a toy)

Couldn't agree more - then it doesn't get driven and the enjoyment goes, and whats the good of that. 

27 minutes ago, sleazius said:

New buyers get in the game hoping to benefit from the uplift and won’t risk their investment

Annoying phenomenon; only to be seen at cars and coffee.

28 minutes ago, sleazius said:

Combined with low rates and before you know it you’re in an asset bubble. ---- And we know how that ends

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2 hours ago, sleazius said:

There is another factor at play here too. Once something starts appreciating in value it becomes an asset (opposed to a toy). New buyers get in the game hoping to benefit from the uplift and won’t risk their investment. That makes the remaining cars scarcer and only fuels the uplift further. Combined with low rates and before you know it you’re in an asset bubble.

Makes sense to me, good analysis!

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4 hours ago, edgy said:

I had noticed a lot of the recently acquired owners are of a different persuasion, they often have zero interest in tracking the car, I also know people that sold up 996 & 997 because they became too valuable to track. 

Kurt, I think that's pretty close to where I am now with my 6.1.  I would find it very difficult to wear a big $ loss if I binned my car on the track, and it would certainly have a big impact on some currently  forming plans for an earlyish retirement.  Stutt'fest may be the last event I do with the car, even now I'm tossing up Regularity vs Open Pitlane.  I don't want to give up motorsport and am currently investigating a mk 7 GTI Golf I can get hold of at a very reasonable price, spend a few $ on it and have a more disposable track car if the unthinkable happens.....

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Interesting views on "what's happened to them"...... (and mostly correct in my view) - Sorry for the long post - skip to the BOLD !

After a little while swimming around in my soup - I think this cant be looked at in isolation..... there are other factors in play - Reliability/Technology and $$$$

When i first started tracking a Porsche in the late 90's (and seriously in the early 2000's) there was a reliability issue at play. Not so much Air-cooled / water cooled / IMS reliability - but a general reliability issue with vehicles. If you wanted to track a car - it was a proper race car or a Porsche.

Everything else broke. And Porsches were just more accessible (and underpriced). Period.

Holden / Nissan / Ford = broke (and slow) or when highly modified = just broken sooner (still slow). 

Lambo? Lol have fun with overheating. Ever seen a Countach turned into a track car? LOL! How many 70's 911s are STILL lapping today? (and fast???????)

Ferrari - in a straight line slow, and then if it was fast, usually caught fire....🤣

Porsches were just the most robust (stock and modified) car out there. Time (and technology) has changed that.... Even a late model Commodore is a reliable AND fast track car + all the other brands have got their shit together - still slow but at least they don't break? (unless you track an RS Audi or M Car.... sorry not sorry 🤣)

And the second thing - Wealth and Choice - (population growth in there too)

Not just who can afford it (sure thats always an issue) but just the sheer amount of people that have the availability of $$$ and the willingness to spend on a car. There are just more of them. Here and the rest of the world. (in the 90's - 993RS' sat at dealers - jeebus even my ex-father in law bought a 996RS with no special strings pulled -  and he's a flop) 

And the choice of cars now? Lambo and Ferrari  - fast and reliable (who would've thought?) Let alone a Golf R doing similar times? What about a late model BMW? E46??? A lot of these cars are not fast or as track capable as a Porsche - but they are plenty fast for most people????

Porsches were an anomaly in Australia. We had a small insulated market - prices ALWAYS went down ( @reedminor Lloyds '73RS turning up to Oran Park track days - because it was old) a 993RS was $160K in the early 2000's. Rennlist was an actual email list. Content + knowledge was scarce and hard to come - by.

These days a new car has 45 reviews on Youtube before being fully revealed by the manufacturer!! Everyone is an armchair critic and knows more than the next guy.

Cheap finance (well cheap everything actually - remember when 42" Plasmas were $10K???) and more available $$$ (wealth)  mean more people have watched more of those videos mentioned above - they "think" it will be worth more - so they buy it to "invest" without ever understanding the "value" of driving, as opposed to the "I own a XYZ + Macan + ABC + 911 + GFY" so Im cooler/richer/know more than you.

Which - in closing - all leads to what Mark was asking. Where are they now? The market was much smaller back then - so just simply not as many produced/sold. There were roughly 2 x as many 991.2 GT3 RS sold than 993+996+997+997.2 RS cars COMBINED.

I tend to cycle my cars through - some ppl never sell em. Whilst I am happy to move them on and try something else, Its harder and harder to do when prices keep going  up? It was so rare to hear of people importing cars - now - anyone can do it - and usually so they can try and turn a buck - not drive! (all you have to do is look at any "value" thread about non AU delivered cars....) @symsy

Will the Asset bubble burst and then force people to sell these rare gems / investment/Cars and Coffee Cars?

Maybe - the growth will (should) taper and some will (should) come back - (in my experience - if you modified a car - you were LUCKY to get ANY extra $$$ over a stock car when you sold it - these days - you add all of your receipts up - and then add 15%) but my gut feeling is that its not over.

We are living in unprecedented times. If you've own/ed or driven one of these - consider yourself lucky, enjoy it!

NO idea where they have gone....

 

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On 26/11/2021 at 14:26, TwoHeadsTas said:

The 4.0 was being talked about fairly reverently on the Collection Cars Harris / Preuninger podcast......

And it is a very nice looking car!!!

We see Ian pretty regularly at our PCT Northern runs and GT gruppe drives 🙂   (when it isn't raining...........🤨)

Yes, I've clocked 6000 kms in four years of ownership (it's not a daily, driven on average once a month)....wish I had the opportunity to drive it more often 😊

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On 27/11/2021 at 07:42, sleazius said:

I'm sure there are plenty of sub 10k km 997 GT3s as a result.

Scroll up, the 997.2 i just bought has 8723km.  One owner. He hardly drove it as he owned a dealership.

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21 hours ago, on_booost said:

Interesting views on "what's happened to them"...... (and mostly correct in my view) - Sorry for the long post - skip to the BOLD !

After a little while swimming around in my soup - I think this cant be looked at in isolation..... there are other factors in play - Reliability/Technology and $$$$

When i first started tracking a Porsche in the late 90's (and seriously in the early 2000's) there was a reliability issue at play. Not so much Air-cooled / water cooled / IMS reliability - but a general reliability issue with vehicles. If you wanted to track a car - it was a proper race car or a Porsche.

Everything else broke. And Porsches were just more accessible (and underpriced). Period.

Holden / Nissan / Ford = broke (and slow) or when highly modified = just broken sooner (still slow). 

Lambo? Lol have fun with overheating. Ever seen a Countach turned into a track car? LOL! How many 70's 911s are STILL lapping today? (and fast???????)

Ferrari - in a straight line slow, and then if it was fast, usually caught fire....🤣

Porsches were just the most robust (stock and modified) car out there. Time (and technology) has changed that.... Even a late model Commodore is a reliable AND fast track car + all the other brands have got their shit together - still slow but at least they don't break? (unless you track an RS Audi or M Car.... sorry not sorry 🤣)

And the second thing - Wealth and Choice - (population growth in there too)

Not just who can afford it (sure thats always an issue) but just the sheer amount of people that have the availability of $$$ and the willingness to spend on a car. There are just more of them. Here and the rest of the world. (in the 90's - 993RS' sat at dealers - jeebus even my ex-father in law bought a 996RS with no special strings pulled -  and he's a flop) 

And the choice of cars now? Lambo and Ferrari  - fast and reliable (who would've thought?) Let alone a Golf R doing similar times? What about a late model BMW? E46??? A lot of these cars are not fast or as track capable as a Porsche - but they are plenty fast for most people????

Porsches were an anomaly in Australia. We had a small insulated market - prices ALWAYS went down ( @reedminor Lloyds '73RS turning up to Oran Park track days - because it was old) a 993RS was $160K in the early 2000's. Rennlist was an actual email list. Content + knowledge was scarce and hard to come - by.

These days a new car has 45 reviews on Youtube before being fully revealed by the manufacturer!! Everyone is an armchair critic and knows more than the next guy.

Cheap finance (well cheap everything actually - remember when 42" Plasmas were $10K???) and more available $$$ (wealth)  mean more people have watched more of those videos mentioned above - they "think" it will be worth more - so they buy it to "invest" without ever understanding the "value" of driving, as opposed to the "I own a XYZ + Macan + ABC + 911 + GFY" so Im cooler/richer/know more than you.

Which - in closing - all leads to what Mark was asking. Where are they now? The market was much smaller back then - so just simply not as many produced/sold. There were roughly 2 x as many 991.2 GT3 RS sold than 993+996+997+997.2 RS cars COMBINED.

I tend to cycle my cars through - some ppl never sell em. Whilst I am happy to move them on and try something else, Its harder and harder to do when prices keep going  up? It was so rare to hear of people importing cars - now - anyone can do it - and usually so they can try and turn a buck - not drive! (all you have to do is look at any "value" thread about non AU delivered cars....) @symsy

Will the Asset bubble burst and then force people to sell these rare gems / investment/Cars and Coffee Cars?

Maybe - the growth will (should) taper and some will (should) come back - (in my experience - if you modified a car - you were LUCKY to get ANY extra $$$ over a stock car when you sold it - these days - you add all of your receipts up - and then add 15%) but my gut feeling is that its not over.

We are living in unprecedented times. If you've own/ed or driven one of these - consider yourself lucky, enjoy it!

NO idea where they have gone....

 

Well said. It’s a complex set of circumstances, that’s for sure.

On 27/11/2021 at 11:47, luzzo said:

Agree that a 991/992 is still more expensive, however the numbers available are vastly different.  It would seem to me that if someone is prepared to spend the money for a 'modern' GT3 and then be able to track it, would generally seem to be a toy. 

Something they can afford to splash on and should it be damaged in an incident, can be relatively easily replaced as production numbers were far greater. 

Not so if you crash a 996 (or 997). 

 

Someone buying an older model GT car may be buying as their 'dream' purchase. Possibly something they could not buy back when they lusted over them new. 

So now when they can finally purchase one, it is cherished and risking damage on a track is too high a risk.

 

+1 to this 

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Totally depends on the event. 
 

I was at a Porsche club Vic event today, approx 120 completion cars, At a guess at least 50% (possibly more) were GT cars, mostly 991’s (and a 992 GT3) I think 4-5 997 GT3’s (including a 997 RS) and 3 x 996 GT3’s including my RS. 
 

A small day we ran at Winton earlier in the year, 40 cars, I’d say at least 15 -20 996 GT3’s, 5-10 997 GT3’s and a couple of 991 GT3’s. 
 

Porsche club events in general are wealthy owners wanting the latest, greatest & fastest. As a result you’ll get a higher proportion of 991’s, GT4’s etc. 

Our little Winton gathering on the other hand, more ‘enthusiast’ base, less about lap times, more about exercising the cars for fun so it was overrun with playful 996’s. 
 

They are very much still out there being used, just depends on the event and/or the circle of Porsche owners you hang out with. 
 

Economics don’t come into the discussion from my point of view, that’s totally overthinking it. ;)

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6 minutes ago, hugh said:

Economics don’t come into the discussion from my point of view, that’s totally overthinking it. ;)

Ask any owner who bought their 996.1 GT3 for $90k a few years ago how they feel about binning their now $250k GT3.

You’d be surprised how many are considering selling or taking them off the track, at least that has been the vibe among owners I’ve spoken to who’ve held a while.

Your mileage may vary of course.

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I agree that this stuff is best not considered. Make sure your car is as well prepared as possible and drive within your limits. At least then you are controlling what you can control. Doesn’t mean the unthinkable cannot happen, but…

From my perspective, I did two track days in my road GT3 and really enjoyed it. If I did not have the cup car which is much faster/safer/fit for purpose, I would probably do more in the road car, and upgrade the car a bit more to suit. However it doesn’t make sense to track it any longer in my situation. That decision is more to do with the road car having been babied all of its life so there is a want for me to maintain it’s condition. The cup is worth roughly 1/3 of the road car in the current market, yet the thought of damaging either on track is equally painful, regardless. What I’m getting at is for me, the cost of the car doesn’t really come into it as much as potentially damaging a car(s) that I really love, whether it be worth 90 or 250. I remember having a BIG off in my old 996 GT3 at Mallala back when they were worth 85 grand and my bum still clenched quite hard. 
 

I think as @luzzo stated earlier, 991/2 are worth more yes, but they are treated as toys and are replaceable, so they fit the bill for track use a little bit better than a “modern classic” 996 or 7 does. Not that the old ones don’t make fantastic track cars, and if driven right can’t keep up with, or go faster than a new one 😁

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9 hours ago, sleazius said:

Ask any owner who bought their 996.1 GT3 for $90k a few years ago how they feel about binning their now $250k GT3.

You’d be surprised how many are considering selling or taking them off the track, at least that has been the vibe among owners I’ve spoken to who’ve held a while.

Your mileage may vary of course.

If they are too scared to drive their cars due to the perceived value then that's a shame. There is also an argument that if indeed they did buy their 996 GT3 for 90k then they only punting 90k around the track, I'd consider that a win and even more of a reason to drive it with zero cares! Tell them to grow some balls and go an enjoy the things, stop saving it for the next man. 

All the guys punting 991's are generally in well over 300k so there are plenty of people out there enjoying expensive cars as intended. I guess that's the difference between people who buy these things to use and enjoy them and the others that justify a purchase as an 'investment'. 

It can be both if you do it right. 

I did have a guy come up to me at a hill climb recently and ask if mine was a real RS, I nodded, his reply "You are mad!" :lol: 

 

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11 minutes ago, hugh said:

If they are too scared to drive their cars due to the perceived value then that's a shame. There is also an argument that if indeed they did buy their 996 GT3 for 90k then they only punting 90k around the track, I'd consider that a win and even more of a reason to drive it with zero cares! Tell them to grow some balls and go an enjoy the things, stop saving it for the next man. 

All the guys punting 991's are generally in well over 300k so there are plenty of people out there enjoying expensive cars as intended. I guess that's the difference between people who buy these things to use and enjoy them and the others that justify a purchase as an 'investment'. 

It can be both if you do it right. 

I did have a guy come up to me at a hill climb recently and ask if mine was a real RS, I nodded, his reply "You are mad!" :lol: 

 

Well said Hugh,  to my mind the investment is in your own mental health and well being. The joy these cars bring far out ways their value to me, I know things change over the ownership period however having a car you love and being to scared to use and enjoy makes no sense at all and will only lead to unhappiness. 

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19 minutes ago, hugh said:

If they are too scared to drive their cars due to the perceived value then that's a shame. There is also an argument that if indeed they did buy their 996 GT3 for 90k then they only punting 90k around the track, I'd consider that a win and even more of a reason to drive it with zero cares! Tell them to grow some balls and go an enjoy the things, stop saving it for the next man. 

All the guys punting 991's are generally in well over 300k so there are plenty of people out there enjoying expensive cars as intended. I guess that's the difference between people who buy these things to use and enjoy them and the others that justify a purchase as an 'investment'. 

It can be both if you do it right. 

I did have a guy come up to me at a hill climb recently and ask if mine was a real RS, I nodded, his reply "You are mad!" :lol: 

 

Good one Hugh . Ownership of cars for retirement plans  or investments diminishes the value of ownership for sure . 

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Lots of interesting points.

About the value of the car, possibly need to consider the value in relation to the wealth of the owner. The risk level will differ considerably for someone who has huge disposible income vs someone who has scrimped every penny to get their dream car.

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On 27/11/2021 at 15:49, TwoHeadsTas said:

Kurt, I think that's pretty close to where I am now with my 6.1.  I would find it very difficult to wear a big $ loss if I binned my car on the track, and it would certainly have a big impact on some currently  forming plans for an earlyish retirement.  Stutt'fest may be the last event I do with the car, even now I'm tossing up Regularity vs Open Pitlane.  I don't want to give up motorsport and am currently investigating a mk 7 GTI Golf I can get hold of at a very reasonable price, spend a few $ on it and have a more disposable track car if the unthinkable happens.....

Part of the reason I like tracking my Yaris GR. I can punt it into a wall and get another one. A new GT3 would have me holding back. 
 

Also the logic of why I had been hunting down a cup car (till my wife caught wind of it 🥴) sub $100k but infinitely more capable. 

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1 hour ago, Dalai said:

Lots of interesting points.

About the value of the car, possibly need to consider the value in relation to the wealth of the owner. The risk level will differ considerably for someone who has huge disposible income vs someone who has scrimped every penny to get their dream car.

This was more my thinking - there was a time not that long past when 996 GT3s were viewed as an enthusiast point of entry given the ~$100k buy in. A lot of those guys may not be able to afford to bin something that is 2.5x or more the value simply due to the opportunity cost.

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56 minutes ago, sleazius said:

 

This was more my thinking - there was a time not that long past when 996 GT3s were viewed as an enthusiast point of entry given the ~$100k buy in. A lot of those guys may not be able to afford to bin something that is 2.5x or more the value simply due to the opportunity cost.

Yep, Martin hit it right on the head, and you give it good context Sleaze.  In my case, selling the GT3 is something I have been considering due to the  opportunity cost, but a change in time commitments that has arisen in the last 3 weeks would mean that a sale would  allow me to leave a job I've stopped enjoying, but had planned to stick with for another 3 -4 years.  Earlier retirement is now possible due to a part replacement income situation arising.  Whilst I absolutely love my GT3, selling it may end up being the means for me to achieve a much better work / life balance........  But, no final decision made yet 🙂 

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There was certainly a lack of 996/997 GT3's in the Adelaide Rally this year.

From count there were  3, Cam's 6.1, Ben"s 7.2 and my 7.1.

Seems the GT car of choice was a 991.

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