930 values

[JLD]

18 minutes ago, 3legs said:

Why oh why didn't I buy that yellow Dino back in 1981 for $30k. I bought my 1st Porsche instead for the same price. Not that I'm complaining. I've already satisfied my Ferrari urge and that is why I'm back with Porsche

Now someone hand me the Kleenex to wipe my tears.

Probably for the same reason I didn't buy a 1967 911S for $18k back in the early 90's. It just wasn't right at the time!

[carl888]

12 minutes ago, 3legs said:

Why oh why didn't I buy that yellow Dino back in 1981 for $30k. I bought my 1st Porsche instead for the same price. Not that I'm complaining. I've already satisfied my Ferrari urge and that is why I'm back with Porsche

Now someone hand me the Kleenex to wipe my tears.

Probably because in 1981 $30,000 was more than half the median house price, in Melbourne at least.  If you use property as the indicator, the Dino at last nights Auction was effectively cheaper than your 1981 offering.

If you'd hung on to your money until the CSL float in 1994 and bought $30,000 worth of stock, at today's close the value would be $2,164,434.

Cars are not an investment, just kiss the money good bye and enjoy.  If you get anything back when you sell, it's a bonus.

 

 

[Pedro]

37 minutes ago, carl888 said:

Probably because in 1981 $30,000 was more than half the median house price, in Melbourne at least.  If you use property as the indicator, the Dino at last nights Auction was effectively cheaper than your 1981 offering.

If you'd hung on to your money until the CSL float in 1994 and bought $30,000 worth of stock, at today's close the value would be $2,164,434.

Cars are not an investment, just kiss the money good bye and enjoy.  If you get anything back when you sell, it's a bonus.

 

 

Bit harsh saying cars are not an investment. A lot of collectors would argue that point strongly. And you cherry picked the best performing Oz stock in recent decades as an example - good luck at picking the next CSL. Cars don’t keep up with the stock market over the very long term (see chart below - thanks Hugh) but still do well and better than other collectables. Not bad diversification from stocks and real estate if you ask me, and more fun for sure. 

[carl888]

34 minutes ago, Pedro said:

Bit harsh saying cars are not an investment. A lot of collectors would argue that point strongly. And you cherry picked the best performing Oz stock in recent decades as an example - good luck at picking the next CSL. Cars don’t keep up with the stock market over the very long term (see chart below - thanks Hugh) but still do well and better than other collectables. Not bad diversification from stocks and real estate if you ask me, and more fun for sure. 

Pedro I don't know any cars that have outperformed traditional investments.  I would love to hear of any.  Of course collectors would be happy to argue the point, but I've done the sums, it doesn't add up and I'd love someone to prove me incorrect with some data.  Please.

 It's certainly an interesting discussion and the current hype around classics touted as "Investments" by Auction houses and magazines such as Octane and Classic and Sports Car just don't seem to add up when you factor in maintenance, insurance, storage and registration.

Cars however are not subject to CGT in Australia (Yet) if used personally so my example of CSL above would be subject to CGT, the Dino pre 1985 would not be even if claimed as a business expense for the first four years until 1985.

From what I can tell investment wise the ship has sailed for those lucky enough to buy junk no one wanted in the 1970s.  I think that was the last bastion of making money from cars.  The 250 GTO #3589 that sat outside the trade school in the USA is a good example:

http://www.theretromobilist.com/historic-racing/111-the-anorak-ferrari-250-gto-3589gt

Same with sports prototypes that were just outdated old shit such as Porsche 908/03, Alfa 33/2, Matra 670C etc.  You could have bought those a few years after retirement in the 1970s for about double Commodore money, maybe less.  Throw them in your old uncles barn and 40 year later ship them to Gooding and Co. You would have been slightly ahead.

Happy days, enjoy your car.  And do let me know if anyone ended up being ahead of the curve with your car investment.

 

[hugh]

2 hours ago, Pedro said:

Cars don’t keep up with the stock market over the very long term (see chart below - thanks Hugh) but still do well and better than other collectables. Not bad diversification from stocks and real estate if you ask me, and more fun for sure. 

On behalf of @Pedro

 

[Aircon]

On 13/03/2018 at 3:02 PM, Troubleshooter said:

Copper 930 (which please my eyes no end) dropped his price 15k this morn on CS "Price Reduced based on the recent Shannon’s auction of a very similar car which sold for $181000 plus buyers premium which puts it at just over $190000." Tremendous colour!!

But after commission, what did the seller actually end up with? It's not just the story of what the buyer ended up paying, but what the seller accepted, and at auctions, there's a huge gap.

[MFX]

On 3/13/2018 at 8:13 PM, hugh said:

On behalf of @Pedro

 

I really don't get the collectable wine thing. Cars I get, you can get some use out of them. I suppose you can treat them like a piece of art, but you are never going to drink it, and if you did, anything old is probably going to be corked anyway. Maybe it is just because I am an uncultured swine 

Sorry for the tangent...

[Troubleshooter]

6 hours ago, Aircon said:

But after commission, what did the seller actually end up with? It's not just the story of what the buyer ended up paying, but what the seller accepted, and at auctions, there's a huge gap.

$181000. 

[OnSafari]

1 hour ago, Troubleshooter said:

$181000. 

No, Shannons would have charged betwen a 10 to 12% sellers commission to the hammer price. They alone charge $400 to 500 for detailing and photos alone. They have a sliding scale and it also depends on whether a reserve in in place as well (slight discount for unreserved lots). I enquired about this with them only a month or so ago.

They get it coming and going!

[Troubleshooter]

22 minutes ago, OnSafari said:

No, Shannons would have charged betwen a 10 to 12% sellers commission to the hammer price. They alone charge $400 to 500 for detailing and photos alone. They have a sliding scale and it also depends on whether a reserve in in place as well (slight discount for unreserved lots). I enquired about this with them only a month or so ago.

They get it coming and going!

https://www.shannons.com.au/library/documents/Shannons_Auctions_Conditions_Showroom_v2.pdf

1.6 A buyer’s premium of 5% (GST inc) is payable to Shannons by the purchaser on the final hammer price of all Auction lots purchased (cars, motorcycles, memorabilia and number plates). 1.7 All prices include GST

Detailing could be done yourself. I'd have it done by my detailer and either way that's a cost all sellers have to pay if they want their car as perfect as it gets to sell a car generally. Photos? Yes probably a cost there. $100? Sellers would usually pay for that. I'd take them myself as part of the agreement or crunch them on paying for them.

There's no sliding scale. No mention of discount for unreserved lots. Of course, any of this is possibly negotiable in the sellers favour with them prior to listing as it's a business deal from both ends. Maybe they are negotiable for a better deal for the seller I don't know. If they tried to somehow charge me more in any way as a seller, I'd be hold in them to the stated SHANNONS AUCTIONS LIMITED VIC:LMCT 9585 NSW:MD19550 AUCTION CONDITIONS Shannons Auctions Limited (Shannons) ABN 83 099665 497 conducts this auction on these Auction Conditions 

If I had a "hero" car for the auction I'd be crunching them as much as I could.

[OnSafari]

30 minutes ago, Troubleshooter said:

https://www.shannons.com.au/library/documents/Shannons_Auctions_Conditions_Showroom_v2.pdf

1.6 A buyer’s premium of 5% (GST inc) is payable to Shannons by the purchaser on the final hammer price of all Auction lots purchased (cars, motorcycles, memorabilia and number plates). 1.7 All prices include GST

Detailing could be done yourself. I'd have it done by my detailer and either way that's a cost all sellers have to pay if they want their car as perfect as it gets to sell a car generally. Photos? Yes probably a cost there. $100? Sellers would usually pay for that. I'd take them myself as part of the agreement or crunch them on paying for them.

There's no sliding scale. No mention of discount for unreserved lots. Of course, any of this is possibly negotiable in the sellers favour with them prior to listing as it's a business deal from both ends. Maybe they are negotiable for a better deal for the seller I don't know. If they tried to somehow charge me more in any way as a seller, I'd be hold in them to the stated SHANNONS AUCTIONS LIMITED VIC:LMCT 9585 NSW:MD19550 AUCTION CONDITIONS Shannons Auctions Limited (Shannons) ABN 83 099665 497 conducts this auction on these Auction Conditions 

If I had a "hero" car for the auction I'd be crunching them as much as I could.

Ring and ask, I've only repeated what I was told by Shannnos (Sydney branch).

[Aircon]

3 hours ago, Troubleshooter said:

$181000. 

*sigh *

[OnSafari]

2 hours ago, OnSafari said:

Ring and ask, I've only repeated what I was told by Shannnos (Sydney branch).

http://www.motorcartel.com.au/blog/the-pros-and-cons-of-selling-your-car-at-auction-in-australia/

"According to Abc.net.au, auctioneer commissions generally range from 11-25%. Some auction houses such as Shannons (classic car auctioneers) operate on a slightly different system; for example Shannons charges a fixed $550 entrance fee plus 11% commission on the sale price."

Thus the seller of this 930 did not get $181K in the hand. Probably somewhere betweem $165 - $170K. The fixed fee of $550 is for detailing and photos, I doubt they would let you "do it yourself".

Those conditions above are applicable to buyers. Shannons only introduced buyers premiums recently.

[Troubleshooter]

42 minutes ago, OnSafari said:

http://www.motorcartel.com.au/blog/the-pros-and-cons-of-selling-your-car-at-auction-in-australia/

"According to Abc.net.au, auctioneer commissions generally range from 11-25%. Some auction houses such as Shannons (classic car auctioneers) operate on a slightly different system; for example Shannons charges a fixed $550 entrance fee plus 11% commission on the sale price."

Thus the seller of this 930 did not get $181K in the hand. Probably somewhere betweem $165 - $170K. The fixed fee of $550 is for detailing and photos, I doubt they would let you "do it yourself".

Those conditions above are applicable to buyers. Shannons only introduced buyers premiums recently.

Any contract is negotiable. Either side can walk prior to signing on.... Motorcartel - they have skin in the game and are just quoting ABC. Ok maybe the supposed $550 isn't negotiable, I'll go with that. $550 outta $181000, like 5 cents outta your console. Think I'll go with the CURRENT 5% stated in  Shannons current PDF instead of an ABC article written who knows when, and by who knows who.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OnSafari]

3 minutes ago, Troubleshooter said:

Any contract is negotiable. Either side can walk prior to signing on.... Motorcartel - they have skin in the game and are just quoting ABC. Ok maybe the supposed $550 isn't negotiable, I'll go with that. $550 outta $181000, like 5 cents outta your console. Think I'll go with the CURRENT 5% stated in  Shannons current PDF instead of an ABC article written who knows when, and by who knows who.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That 5% is for the buyers premium. Its a different world for the sellers. As stated above I have actually spoken to Shannons about this as we have a couple of cars from a deceased estate to move, one being a vintage Packard and a XK150 Jaguar. We decided not to pursue the Shannons auction path as it is simply too expensive. Also they will charge you a garaging fee if your car doesn't sell and you're slow to remove it.

Again, ring them and find out for yourself.

[Troubleshooter]

Well I cbf ringing them and you've spoken to them so I'll go with what you say. So the seller was charged at 11%+ the $550 , $20450, received $161000. Shannons received $9,600.

Overall for an approx $6,500,000 night's work plus lead up work, they approx grossed around $30,000 for the items listing costs, another $300,000 for the buyers premiums, and another $700,000 for the commissions. So around a lazy million gross profit for the one auction. Good wicket if you can get it, good luck to them Makes you wonder how Mossgreen went out of business and now under administration with 12 Million in debt

All-time record $6.5m Shannons Sydney Auction Results It was night of record prices at Shannons March 12 Sydney Autumn Classic Auction, with nearly $6.5 million in total sales making it Australia’s highest-grossing Classic vehicle auction.

[Dreamr]

2 hours ago, Troubleshooter said:

Well I cbf ringing them and you've spoken to them so I'll go with what you say. So the seller was charged at 11%+ the $550 , $20450, received $161000. Shannons received $9,600.

Overall for an approx $6,500,000 night's work plus lead up work, they approx grossed around $30,000 for the items listing costs, another $300,000 for the buyers premiums, and another $700,000 for the commissions. So around a lazy million gross profit for the one auction. Good wicket if you can get it, good luck to them Makes you wonder how Mossgreen went out of business and now under administration with 12 Million in debt

All-time record $6.5m Shannons Sydney Auction Results It was night of record prices at Shannons March 12 Sydney Autumn Classic Auction, with nearly $6.5 million in total sales making it Australia’s highest-grossing Classic vehicle auction.

Not quite .... it' a bit deeper than that.

Shannon' s charge a 16.5% sellers fee if the item is deemed to be an "automotive accessory / memorabilia ....

I'm not sure what the buyers fee is on that but that's another reason why I have not put items through them.

Their fees are ridiculous and I cannot justify paying them .... I get that their reach is far and wide but on say a $10,000 piece of memorabilia, to pay $1,600 is dumb ...

[WOKA]

12 minutes ago, Dreamr said:

 

Their fees are ridiculous and I cannot justify paying them .... I get that their reach is far and wide but on say a $10,000 piece of memorabilia, to pay $1,600 is dumb ...

Just goes to show that they are not interested in the 'small items', however, 16/5% on a number plate...!  FFS   

[Troubleshooter]

1 hour ago, Dreamr said:

Not quite .... it' a bit deeper than that.

Shannon' s charge a 16.5% sellers fee if the item is deemed to be an "automotive accessory / memorabilia ....

I'm not sure what the buyers fee is on that but that's another reason why I have not put items through them.

Their fees are ridiculous and I cannot justify paying them .... I get that their reach is far and wide but on say a $10,000 piece of memorabilia, to pay $1,600 is dumb ...

Probs making more from auctions than insurance! I'd never use them to sell and can't see myself buying at auction either... I don't test drive the car I don't buy it, unless it's at a stupid bargain price leaving plenty of leeway for problems. So they grossed even more than I thought, money for jam!

[LeeM]

On 13/03/2018 at 4:23 PM, carl888 said:

 

Cars are not an investment, just kiss the money good bye and enjoy.  If you get anything back when you sell, it's a bonus.

 

  Depends who you ask, but I get your point. I bought my 912 4 or 5 years ago and did a semi resto on it, made a bloody good profit due to the increase in Porsche values which paid for my 911 and some change in the bank. Being a contractor thats not exactly good at finances or saving for the future (I work, I get paid, I buy shit), my 911 is my retirement investment. I know people who bought wine, art, guitars etc at high prices, or bought shares in whatever, and the market has kicked them in the goolies, so to me they are not a good investment. Even my parents lost a shitload of cash in shares when they received bad advice from their bank manager, then we had the crash a few years ago, so 40 years of working and saving came to nothing.  I also have an old girlfriend of mine who took a decent loan (against my uneducated advice) to buy shares, and do that online trading thing which was 'guaranteed a return', yet now she's in deep shit financially after losing the lot within a week. We see it all the time with shares due to companies going bust, or the directors market forecasts being very optimistic and conning investors to hand over their hard earned (how they can predict the financial future in this day and age is one of life's mysteries), so if you're not prepared to lose all of it, don't do it. You may as well just got to the casino with a few grand and say 'Let it ride' on 21 black! 

  Cars are a good investment if you don't pay much for them. Same as houses with buying the worst house in a good street/location, yet it depends what it is, and whether you have done your homework on values and market demand

[Coastr]

Fun topic and thread drift.  

Cars are a fun hobby that you can navigate carefully to not spend a fortune on depreciation.  Way more fun than wine or art.  But they are not investments.  The fun bit is losing less than everyone else or occasionally having a win where you get a clear profit.  But it’s fundamentally a greater fool game and the population of fools will eventually exhaust.

The simple definition is : investments feed you, liabilities eat you.  A true investment provides cashflow and has a principal value that grows at least as fast as real inflation, or sometimes better. The number of cars in that bucket is astonishingly small and I doubt any 930s are in that bucket. 

You don’t have to pick winning stocks to do well.  Just buying the asx200 and reinvesting the dividends for the last ten years would have nearly doubled your money, and required no insurance, taxes, maintenance, and that is in a period where it tracked sideways for a long time.

[epilot]

https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?kw=porsche&smode=0&lid=1360653

https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?kw=porsche&smode=0&lid=1360659

[OBRUT]

On 16/03/2018 at 6:34 AM, Coastr said:

Fun topic and thread drift.  

Cars are a fun hobby that you can navigate carefully to not spend a fortune on depreciation.  Way more fun than wine or art.  But they are not investments.  The fun bit is losing less than everyone else or occasionally having a win where you get a clear profit.  But it’s fundamentally a greater fool game and the population of fools will eventually exhaust.

The simple definition is : investments feed you, liabilities eat you.  A true investment provides cashflow and has a principal value that grows at least as fast as real inflation, or sometimes better. The number of cars in that bucket is astonishingly small and I doubt any 930s are in that bucket. 

You don’t have to pick winning stocks to do well.  Just buying the asx200 and reinvesting the dividends for the last ten years would have nearly doubled your money, and required no insurance, taxes, maintenance, and that is in a period where it tracked sideways for a long time.

Nailed it. 

[bear924]

Did anyone catch what the two 911 turbos auctioned at Lloyds went for? 

The red one:

https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?kw=porsche&smode=0&lid=1360659

The blue one:

https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?kw=porsche&smode=0&lid=1360653

[symsy]

5 minutes ago, bear924 said:

Did anyone catch what the two 911 turbos auctioned at Lloyds went for? 

The red one:

https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?kw=porsche&smode=0&lid=1360659

The blue one:

https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?kw=porsche&smode=0&lid=1360653

Did you say auction   Shit missed the tipping comp , sorry no idea