Advice Needed - 912 Engines

[JonoF]

Dear 912 Experts

Kindly requesting your advice. 

I have two queries - one likely easy, one likely difficult. 

(1) 912 cases have three pieces. The “third piece” has the engine number stamped on it. Do the their two pieces have any stamping? Can any 65-69 912 first and second piece be matted to a 1965 third piece? 

(2) what are the best HP yielding performance mods for a 912 engine? 

Thanks in advance! 

Cheers

Jono

[LeeM]

  Easiest way is to get onto Benton Performance in the US. He is THE 912 guy to answer any questions 

[turboT]

1 hour ago, JonoF said:

Dear 912 Experts

Kindly requesting your advice. 

I have two queries - one likely easy, one likely difficult. 

(1) 912 cases have three pieces. The “third piece” has the engine number stamped on it. Do the their two pieces have any stamping? Can any 65-69 912 first and second piece be matted to a 1965 third piece? 

(2) what are the best HP yielding performance mods for a 912 engine? 

Thanks in advance! 

Cheers

Jono

you buying barnfind?

[JonoF]

 

1 hour ago, LeeM said:

  Easiest way is to get onto Benton Performance in the US. He is THE 912 guy to answer any questions 

Thanks, Lee. I have seen the Petrolicious doco thingy on him - he seems to have a massive following in the 912 world.  I like his ethos too - really really really good tuning of near stock engines can yield nearly as good results as big bucks modded engines.  

15 minutes ago, turboT said:

you buying barnfind?

Nope. That car is a very worthy opponent to even an experienced restorer. 

[LeeM]

2 hours ago, JonoF said:

 

Thanks, Lee. I have seen the Petrolicious doco thingy on him - he seems to have a massive following in the 912 world.  I like his ethos too - really really really good tuning of near stock engines can yield nearly as good results as big bucks modded engines

  He just seems like a good guy too. He's not up himself like a few well known Porsche people, and freely helps many around the world with advice

[MR901]

I had an overbore kit (to 1720) & performance exhaust on mine. It’s a few years ago but from memory the power increased to a sniff over 100HP. I drove it back to back with some early 911’s & never felt it was lacking in power or fun !! If you want more HP it’s probably more cost effective to store the original engine & find a 911 engine ? IMHO however the transplant detracts from what makes the 912 such an enjoyable car...I miss mine !!

[9er]

Question 1 .........no stamping (date of production casting marks and engine type only) and yes 65-69 all match.

Question 2...... Obviously more complicated, adding a full flow oil system needs to be number one priority IMO.

[OBRUT]

17 hours ago, JonoF said:

Dear 912 Experts

Kindly requesting your advice. 

I have two queries - one likely easy, one likely difficult. 

(1) 912 cases have three pieces. The “third piece” has the engine number stamped on it. Do the their two pieces have any stamping? Can any 65-69 912 first and second piece be matted to a 1965 third piece? 

(2) what are the best HP yielding performance mods for a 912 engine? 

Thanks in advance! 

Cheers

Jono

Don’t do it Jono - Paddo is quite hilly...

ps.  I would suspect that building a really hot 912 motor (twin spark, high compression, trick crank & rods etc) is going to be silly money - and will probably need to be done overseas.  I think this is why big capacity type 4 motors (tarted up with a 911 fan) get used a bit.  

[LeeM]

  I agree with Ryan here Jono. Not that I'm any expert on anything, but my fully rebuilt to 1720 engine cost just under $11k, and in all honesty, it was gutless, and my 1600 58 beetle was quicker. I know 2 other guys in NSW were quoted $20k and up for a stock engine build by a well known shop, so add another 5-10k to that and it just doesn't make any sense to me. If performance is what you're after, I'd go the stock 6 cylinder route (unless you want to keep it original) as you'd probably come out of it for similar or less money than a hot 4. Type 4 engines I'm told are great, though still cost shitloads to get them going hard and reliable (I looked into it), yet any performance engine is going to require good maintenance and tuning for optimum performance. As I mentioned, I wouldn't ask anyone else but John Benton (unless there is an Aussie 912/356 guru around), as he is the best in the business

[JonoF]

2 hours ago, OBRUT said:

Don’t do it Jono - Paddo is quite hilly...

ps.  I would suspect that building a really hot 912 motor (twin spark, high compression, trick crank & rods etc) is going to be silly money - and will probably need to be done overseas.  I think this is why big capacity type 4 motors (tarted up with a 911 fan) get used a bit.  

 

23 minutes ago, LeeM said:

  I agree with Ryan here Jono. Not that I'm any expert on anything, but my fully rebuilt to 1720 engine cost just under $11k, and in all honesty, it was gutless, and my 1600 58 beetle was quicker. I know 2 other guys in NSW were quoted $20k and up for a stock engine build by a well known shop, so add another 5-10k to that and it just doesn't make any sense to me. If performance is what you're after, I'd go the stock 6 cylinder route (unless you want to keep it original) as you'd probably come out of it for similar or less money than a hot 4. Type 4 engines I'm told are great, though still cost shitloads to get them going hard and reliable (I looked into it), yet any performance engine is going to require good maintenance and tuning for optimum performance. As I mentioned, I wouldn't ask anyone else but John Benton (unless there is an Aussie 912/356 guru around), as he is the best in the business

I hear both of you.

The 912 currently has an ex race spec VW Type 4 engine in it. Apparently quite wild. But the car has the matching numbers “third piece” from the original engine, but nothing else from the original engine. 

I want to find a donor 912 engine to rebuild a matching numbers engine with the matching third piece. Given the value of 912s, it’s worth doing properly. And the purist in me would love to have a wild 912 engine rather than a wild VW engine. But not wanting to spend big bucks! 

I’ll let you know how I go! 

5 hours ago, 9er said:

Question 1 .........no stamping (date of production casting marks and engine type only) and yes 65-69 all match.

Question 2...... Obviously more complicated, adding a full flow oil system needs to be number one priority IMO.

Legend! Thanks, 9er! Q1 is the more important at this stage (i.e. donor buying stage). You don’t have a cheap spare donor do you? Q2 is a hard one! What do you mean by a “full flow oil system”? How does the oil system in a stock 912 run?

13 hours ago, MR901 said:

I had an overbore kit (to 1720) & performance exhaust on mine. It’s a few years ago but from memory the power increased to a sniff over 100HP. I drove it back to back with some early 911’s & never felt it was lacking in power or fun !! If you want more HP it’s probably more cost effective to store the original engine & find a 911 engine ? IMHO however the transplant detracts from what makes the 912 such an enjoyable car...I miss mine !!

Sounds like a relatively easy mod. I’ll let you know where I land.  Thanks for sharing.  

[clutch-monkey]

I've always wanted to do a twin scroll turbo and shove a mild 8psi down one. 

Sounds cheaper than the alternative, after reading lee's post!

[edgy]

19 hours ago, JonoF said:

Nope. That car is a very worthy opponent to even an experienced restorer. 

We located an ex Ron Goodman guy, he's coming to look at it next week... so we'll see how much weight that carries! 

[JonoF]

52 minutes ago, edgy said:

We located an ex Ron Goodman guy, he's coming to look at it next week... so we'll see how much weight that carries! 

I should rephrase.... that car would have been a formidable opponent to me. An ex-Ron Goodman guy could fix it up in a jiffy.

[Gavn]

7 hours ago, JonoF said:

 

I hear both of you.

The 912 currently has an ex race spec VW Type 4 engine in it. Apparently quite wild. But the car has the matching numbers “third piece” from the original engine, but nothing else from the original engine. 

I want to find a donor 912 engine to rebuild a matching numbers engine with the matching third piece. Given the value of 912s, it’s worth doing properly. And the purist in me would love to have a wild 912 engine rather than a wild VW engine. But not wanting to spend big bucks! 

I’ll let you know how I go! 

Legend! Thanks, 9er! Q1 is the more important at this stage (i.e. donor buying stage). You don’t have a cheap spare donor do you? Q2 is a hard one! What do you mean by a “full flow oil system”? How does the oil system in a stock 912 run?

Sounds like a relatively easy mod. I’ll let you know where I land.  Thanks for sharing.  

The 912 we recently picked up had one of those 'matching numbers third pieces'  as well......seems strange to me but maybe it's just a 912 thing (if you've got that special matching numbers piece....where did the rest of the engine go...?)

[JonoF]

1 hour ago, Gavin (CliffToCoast) said:

The 912 we recently picked up had one of those 'matching numbers third pieces'  as well......seems strange to me but maybe it's just a 912 thing (if you've got that special matching numbers piece....where did the rest of the engine go...?)

Interesting! What are you going to do with the “third piece”? Have you sourced a donor engine? 

[JonoF]

18 hours ago, clutch-monkey said:

I've always wanted to do a twin scroll turbo and shove a mild 8psi down one. 

Sounds cheaper than the alternative, after reading lee's post!

I’m keen to hear more!!! I like your thinking!!!

[clutch-monkey]

6 minutes ago, JonoF said:

I’m keen to hear more!!! I like your thinking!!!

 

My idea was that Porsche is doing turbo flat four now.. recreate it if they did it in the 60's etc.

stronger head studs, maybe thicker head gasket.

exhaust knocked up by any half decent exhaust shop, little turbo (either twin scroll or filch one of the many oem options out there, something off a stock golf or Subaru Forester Etc might be adequately sized). 

Run a little water to air intercooler (radiator in left front fender, oil cooler right front) to keep it all as responsive as possible. Run 8psi to keep it snappy and preserve engine and gearbox. 

Most expensive part would be efi and intake manifold I think.

 

 

[LeeM]

  Or fit a Judson Supercharger if you're going period correct

[Okrasa Kid]

The Kids says!

Go to www.shastadesign.net 

Buy the book "The complete Porsche 912 guide" by Duane Spencer published by RPM Auto Books and all will be revealed! 

A little gold mine full off performance upgrades, maintenance and trouble shooting 

and forget forced induction on these motors.

PM me  ...................maybe able to help put you in the direction of a 912 motor

The return of OLD SKOOL - Carbs, Camshaft (Singular NOT Plural), Points and Pushrods! 

[clutch-monkey]

Why forget forced induction? Is there an inherent weakness?

I'd normally say make it a hot n/a but these just sound so naff and can barely move the car out of its own way after many $$ spent.

[Gavn]

21 hours ago, JonoF said:

Interesting! What are you going to do with the “third piece”? Have you sourced a donor engine? 

When we purchased the car it came with the donor engine and we were offered the third piece.  However the 912 has a warmed over 2.7 fitted, has been taken out to a longer wheel base, previously had a cage in the interior (now back to road trim but two seats) and numerous other non standard bits.  So, I feel its 912 days are over.  As such we sold the engine (currently for sale with another pfa member along with a shell/body) and declined the offer of the magic third piece.  I believe it's still with the previous owner but, given our car is so far gone, I didn't see the point.  I would, one day, like to get a mint 912 but our current car is not it (it is however a cracking drive, 940kg & 210hp - fun).

[rafikdous]

On 08/03/2018 at 9:19 AM, 9er said:

Question 1 .........no stamping (date of production casting marks and engine type only) and yes 65-69 all match.

Question 2...... Obviously more complicated, adding a full flow oil system needs to be number one priority IMO.

Hmm, dare I say you are not quite right here 9er

All 356s and 912s case halves have stamping which indicates the correct year of manufacturing. On a 912, the following applies:

616/36 '65-'67 
616/39 '68 
616/40 '69

[9er]

15 hours ago, rafikdous said:

Hmm, dare I say you are not quite right here 9er

All 356s and 912s case halves have stamping which indicates the correct year of manufacturing. On a 912, the following applies:

616/36 '65-'67 
616/39 '68 
616/40 '69

Obviously I can only speak from my own experience but I have only seen cast dates, not stamped.

The engine 'type' that you mention is handy for rough estimate, but if you want to see the production date you must remove the third piece.

 

[Aljames01]

Late to the thread, agree with LeeM, John Benton is great to have a chat to when he has the time. I bought a 912 off him in 2014, it hadn’t run in 10 years. His team did some work on it for me, and I did a 4000 mile drive around the US in it. 

I’m looking at a 912 build at the moment for the old girl, have a read of these articles, I found them very useful;

If you take it to the next step and are sourcing parts, I’ll go you halves in shipping to Paddington:)

Al

 

[Airhead]

On 3/8/2018 at 9:28 PM, Gavin (CliffToCoast) said:

The 912 we recently picked up had one of those 'matching numbers third pieces'  as well......seems strange to me but maybe it's just a 912 thing (if you've got that special matching numbers piece....where did the rest of the engine go...?)

Bang?