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Cheshire Cat

Aircooled engine rebuild DIY guide

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I`m starting this topic for a reason. I`m in process of rebuilding my 3.0 SC engine and despite all the information I found on the Internet and books it is not clear in some way. I`m not going to argue about which setup is better and what sort of parts should suit this or that build, but will try to cover few basic things to help out those ones who is about to or started or just thinking of rebuilding their aircooled engines. And there is no affiliation. Just saying.

Just found this beatutiful step-by-step engine build. Good write-up and lots of usefull pics. Must check for inspiration as well http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/893877-200k-mile-83-sc-engine-rebuild.html

FEEL FREE TO ADD SOMETHING, CORRECT ME OR DISCUSS...

 

 

1. I would start acquiring a couple of books. I have "Porsche Service manual" by Bentley Publishers https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/PELP983.htm?pn=PEL-P983&SVSVSI=798

and "How to rebuild and modify Porsche 911 engines" https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/BK135124.htm?pn=BK-135124&SVSVSI=798

 

2. You will need a good set of tools but despite that you will need to buy an engine stand and adapter (aka yoke). There are a few adapter options:

expensive one https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/P201.htm?pn=P201-M1229&SVSVSI=798 +shipping etc

a cheaper one https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/PELTOLP201.htm?pn=PEL-TOL-P201&SVSVSI=798 +shipping etc

and the cheapest one so far https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=956239 +shipping etc

The cheapest one works just fine, you might need to remove some stuff off the engine prior to put it on the stand but it does work. 

there is another option, but I can`t say how it works https://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/SuperCat/0798/POR_0798_TOLTOL_pg11.htm#item38

I`m using this engine stand http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/SCA-Engine-Stand-450kg/383672?menuFrom=1021469 

 

 

3. There are a couple ways to drop the engine, those books I`ve mentioned above explain them but if its not enough - youtube is your friend. 

 

 

4. Let`s assume you dropped the engine and it`s on the stand. There are different ways of doing things but most of them consist of changing head studs. All the prices are different, local ones are really high so, here is a list of examples:

Yep, on pelican its even better - 640usd for the lot which is 24 studs, loctite etc https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/SPTCHSK1.htm?pn=SPTC-HSK-1&SVSVSI=798

993 head studs a bit cheaper - 654usd for 24 studs http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/part/eng-993-101-170-53/

and ARP for some sweeter price - ta-dam - 549usd https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/arp-204-4206/overview/make/porsche

 

 

5. Next step is changing whatever you want to change, cylinders, pistons, rods, oil pumps, valves, clutch and\or flywheel etc. 

You will have to recondition your heads first, here are some examples:

Melbourne - HSD Developments would charge - 2500 AUD

Melbourne - Cascone 1500+ AUD

Sydney - and the PR Technology (PRT) 1500+ AUD

For twin plug setup (machining only, no dizzy, no spark plugs etc)

Melbourne - HSD Developments would charge - 1400 AUD

Melbourne - Cascone  - 1100 AUD

Sydney - and the PR Technology (PRT) - 700 AUD

It is not comprehensive but enough to get the rough pricing idea.

 

 

6. Then - cylinders and pistons. 

Cylinders could be made of Nikasil or Alusil. The main difference - Nikasil are a coated cyliders, Alusil are not. Which is better is up to debate but that not the point of this topic (Some info about Alusil https://www.electrosil.com.au/pdf/KS.pdf and some of our discussion

Melbourne - Electrosil, to plate 6 cylinders 1980 AUD for 6 cylinders

Brisbane - Performance 9, 2100 AUD to plate 6 cylinders. The rumor is Stan sends the cylinders over to the USA, same rumor is saying that no one in Aus does that good enough. My opinion it is not true.

NZ Cylinders (http://www.nzcylinders.com/) to bore and plate 6 cylinders - NZ$1950+gst

Original 3.0 cyl are 95mm, to make a 3,2 SS (short stroke) out of 3.0 SC engine you will need to change your cylinders to ones from 3,2 Carrera and you will be able to bore them to 98mm. However there are some rumors that you can bore your original SC pistons and use 98mm. It is controversial to say at least.

Since Alusil cylinders are made of aluminium without any coating involved (roughly saying) you can`t use any aftermarket pistons like they are, you should coat them to be able to use.

Piston coating costs are:

CP Carrillo coating - 45 USD per piston

HPC Coating - 27.50 per piston

Basically you can either coat a cylinder or a piston. 

Now the pistons pricing

Performance 9 quoted me for the set of JE Pistons: 1650AUD

Pelican Parts JE Pistons - https://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/ksearch/PEL_search_2016.cgi?command=DWsearch&description=je+pistons + shipping etc

CP Carrillo pistons ebay - https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CP-Import-Pistons-for-Porsche-Porsche-3-0-SC-911-XP5003/152261060670?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649 

custom Mahle pistons at EBS Racing with coating for Alusil - 1750USD

and here is another option

Cylinders and pistons from 964 3.6 engine, case spigots have to be enlargen and heads should be modified to take 100mm pistons. Plenty of c\p sets on ebay for 100-1200USD and machining is unknown

7. Camshafts...

There are dozens of options with camshaft profiles, lots of original Porsche R, RS, S and RSR versions and lots of different aftermarket profiles to choose from, mostly you can regrinf your original ones to spec you want or just to buy a set of new. 

It is not that clear of how much it would cost so far because the numbers are VERY different, for instance:

Melbourne based Clive Cams quoted me over the phone 340 AUD for a pair cams grinded to 964C2 profile

Performance 9 - 1500 AUD for any pair of cams and it is not clear are they new ones or grinded originals I provide. 

A pair of Dr. Schrick (Germany) cams cost from 581 Euro which is 915+ AUD + shipping. 

 

8. In most cases you will leave your old valves and valve springs unless they are bent or not suitable, anyway, with the head recondition you might need them

Rebel S Racing products - http://rebelracingproducts.com/EngineRelated.html 

Pelican Parts - https://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/SuperCat/0798/POR_0798_ENGCYL_pg3.htm

RSR Products have this stuff for lower prices. (And btw I will give you a hint - old web site RSR products have RSR style flywheel for 385USD and the new one has the same product for 570USD, check it yourself https://www.rsrproducts.com/product-page/rsr-flywheel)

 

to be continued...

 

 

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Curious; what is the end goal? Was there something wrong with your engine to necessitate the rebuild?

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25 minutes ago, Mike D'Silva said:

Curious; what is the end goal? Was there something wrong with your engine to necessitate the rebuild?

I`d prefer to talk about my stuff in a different topic but I can tell you :))

To start with - she was leaking a lot of oil. I found pretty big puddle while was trying to tune her on a dyno. That was the excuse to get into there. I found what was the source - loose head studs nuts. But since I`m there...

The idea was\is to build an engine with something like 250-2... live horses to operate with. If I won`t get it - well, life is life, she will be better that before anyway. 

And I would really appreciate your intake Mike cos you have some experience you might share (if you don`t mind) :)

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updated camshafts info and valves, springs, retainers etc sections

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subscribed.

I am in the middle of a rebuild as well. I have the engine out and have three heads off, the other three should be off by tomorrow. should have just a box of parts by the weekend.

The funniest/worst/most unbelievable thing i found was loose cam nuts. The locating pin popped out, the timing went out, and the valves and pistons met. it wasn't the tensioner fail that i initially expected, which is both good and bad. 

Given the crappy build by the previous owner, i am crossing my fingers that the bottom end isnt equally scary.....

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9 minutes ago, 88-ben-88 said:

subscribed.

I am in the middle of a rebuild as well. I have the engine out and have three heads off, the other three should be off by tomorrow. should have just a box of parts by the weekend.

The funniest/worst/most unbelievable thing i found was loose cam nuts. The locating pin popped out, the timing went out, and the valves and pistons met. it wasn't the tensioner fail that i initially expected, which is both good and bad. 

Given the crappy build by the previous owner, i am crossing my fingers that the bottom end isnt equally scary.....

holy moly... fingers crossed mate

how`s the studs? I`m stuck with 1 on right side :(

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Cheers!

The studs appear ok at this point, they are not original and look to be stainless steel, which i wasnt aware was available.

But given the cam nut find i want to check they have been fitted correctly before relaxing ..

Photo below shows both the studs (of unknown origin) and where the pistons and valves met...

.4CgvERGdHgU0Vh-5oYIBitsiK8PrNHB-fULY4xgWWGxIEYQ0HvI58WLzDQGmCMy3N86hNv0cPWTLgAjCNXCPeinqLREilypGAkrgdWRoS4lvvGD0bamR-mJ06I1zbvzRcMCQe5l9PrCqHKgR1gjPMcjFFIOJdKZxgmqI_5YFqDGg7pooB8CCWMOfOAcBy3seWNKP875Shzh0dm9C2s7p0b0dl-pCM2j-xvn88Gy1XiWCJxLwTqIkvtMWhQ_kHph2z8vP81BEVjGjHjYNudk6CPwMH8WnpMYJy5M1K6dBRCwtLepY72-R6DPuirraQv8MRLP7B2uHvrjxJrBDLvBRP2mZnC-_Mp8eWJhjOYuNOtrd9jStyBtfgZ8wwTU4jbNUg9eY1BajPqtELqP9wmEUt2wS_mZ0btPQ7JVIeIahuYPvS5Zy9i6f8Y1_nr9OpcWalwi4MprKTKcvs2XJCxTwCuUaX33C2DLFSAOP-6Qkqm9szbMwOHFUFTqDn0j2WcQSYK7INoMe2vonMFqwigA_CvCmZ5XlZaG5VkAbdi3ujGNv37GvPEj8e49216I_jTHqOK6-w1eLBnzt9T9QPdOfOH6VYTv0tYI2FHy2raYn=w636-h848-no

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I cannot see a photo...

 

As for re-using valves and springs, well maybe. Your machinist will tell you if the valves are ok to be re-used. It is wise to test the springs as homebuilt does in his videos.New springs are not that expensive and at least you'll feel comfortable when revving high, that you shouldn't get any valve float.

$340 for a regrind? wow, that is cheap. I have been getting my cams and rockers done by either http://drcamshafts.com/ or Craig Garret also in the usa. Only because one of the larger shops here in Aus, told me thats where they send their cams to get done.

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I suppose my recent rebuild videos may be a good resource to put here to help cover some of the engine assembly process. Some of it is not relevant for all but it hopefully will give some insight on what gets done, or should get done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Excellent post topic. To add , anyone with an interest in air cooled Porsches should have a copy of this book. An absolute goldmine of info.

https://www.angusrobertson.com.au/books/porsche-911-performance-handbook-1963-1998-bruce-anderson/p/9780760331804?gclid=CjwKCAjwg_fZBRAoEiwAppvp-YziHxYKlXHPQg83jGFqPiGjghArNUkARpQo_0Y-HK0kBhcncCDX3BoCmEEQAvD_BwE

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11 hours ago, MFX said:

I suppose my recent rebuild videos may be a good resource to put here to help cover some of the engine assembly process. Some of it is not relevant for all but it hopefully will give some insight on what gets done, or should get done.

Thank you for the videos Jeff, they are very good indeed.

I have a few questions for you if you don`t mind.

What have you done to your cylinders\pistons?

Did you have a chance to talk to Neil about cylinder\piston problem?

I`ve found recently that not much of the piston coatings are work in a long run, I`d like to know what exactly should be done to make things right so I`ve sent an email to Performance Developments about this, hoping they will answer me...

15 hours ago, Mike D'Silva said:

I cannot see a photo...

 

As for re-using valves and springs, well maybe. Your machinist will tell you if the valves are ok to be re-used. It is wise to test the springs as homebuilt does in his videos.New springs are not that expensive and at least you'll feel comfortable when revving high, that you shouldn't get any valve float.

$340 for a regrind? wow, that is cheap. I have been getting my cams and rockers done by either http://drcamshafts.com/ or Craig Garret also in the usa. Only because one of the larger shops here in Aus, told me thats where they send their cams to get done.

Larger shops aka Performance 9 shop?:)

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i would love to hear about your experience with Craig Garret,  was it only cam grinding or did you have head work completed by him? if so, how was the postage and general cost?

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1 hour ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Thank you for the videos Jeff, they are very good indeed.

I have a few questions for you if you don`t mind.

What have you done to your cylinders\pistons?

Did you have a chance to talk to Neil about cylinder\piston problem?

I`ve found recently that not much of the piston coatings are work in a long run, I`d like to know what exactly should be done to make things right so I`ve sent an email to Performance Developments about this, hoping they will answer me...

They should answer you, although I know Neil is away in Florida this week.

My pistons are a brand new development, so they are being refined at the moment. As for my cylinders, I had the originals bored out from 90 to 92mm and then re-nickasiled which cost me about US$1500. I am not sure of what the coating is on the pistons, but Neil will be able to clear up exactly what it is. I know he has a new coating he has done on a lot of his new parts which is 25% less friction than everything else, but it is still pretty expensive. 

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10 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Thank you for the videos Jeff, they are very good indeed.

Indeed . first class , well done Edd Jeff!

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23 hours ago, MFX said:

They should answer you, although I know Neil is away in Florida this week.

My pistons are a brand new development, so they are being refined at the moment. As for my cylinders, I had the originals bored out from 90 to 92mm and then re-nickasiled which cost me about US$1500. I am not sure of what the coating is on the pistons, but Neil will be able to clear up exactly what it is. I know he has a new coating he has done on a lot of his new parts which is 25% less friction than everything else, but it is still pretty expensive. 

Jeff... I need your help contacting with Neil, I guess... I can`t get what I need from him. This is what he said about piston coatings: "Best choice would be to Nikisil cylinders. Piston Vostongs font have to be special but rings cannot be chrome."

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9 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 "Best choice would be to Nikisil cylinders. Piston Coatings don't have to be special but rings cannot be chrome."

There you go, translated it for you ;)

As he says, chrome rings will damage the Nikasil.

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2 minutes ago, MFX said:

There you go, translated it for you ;)

You are the best, but whats up with the rings??? Why should I even chrome them??? They aren`t made of aluminium anyway...

And it is for Nikasil cylinders which doesn`t give me any answer for Alusil problem... damn...

I need some rest...

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Just now, Cheshire Cat said:

You are the best, but whats up with the rings??? Why should I even chrome them??? They aren`t made of aluminium anyway...

I need some rest...

You wouldn't chrome them, but some rings come chromed, but they are not suitable.

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1 minute ago, MFX said:

You wouldn't chrome them, but some rings come chromed, but they are not suitable.

and again, is it about alusil or nikasil cylinders? I need to learn english a bit deeper...

Well, thank you anyway

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Other than the Yoke, what specific Porsche tools are you guys using for the teardown / rebuild?

I zipped off my cam bolts with an impact wrench, but to reinstall I know I will need a specific 9191 tool:

https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/00072191910.htm?pn=000-721-919-10-OEM

$180 USD which I'm not that keen on. Toying with the idea of making something up.

I'm not sure if as I go other special tools will be required, but at this rate, they are going to cost as much as new parts!

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One thing I'll add is keep your tools and work area clean. That applies whether it's your aircooled engine, a big horsepower V8, the engine off your mower, or putting a new chain on your kid's bike.  You can often improvise for special tools, so before rushing out and spending $$$, assess the task.

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I have one of those tools you can borrow if you pay for postage. I wont sell mine as I know I will need it again.

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