MFX Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 As the title suggests, I am thinking about possible projects way down the line, and I was wondering what are the main differences between the 996 or 997 cup car engines and the equivalent GT3 road cars? I have been searching around but I can't really seems to see any info. I understand cup car engines need to be regularly rebuilt. What does that entail? Just replace bearings and check compression, or is it always new everything? I have heard that they idle at around 1500rpm and that they have 13:1 compression? Basically could you make one driveable on the street on 98 (forgetting legality)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott930 Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 48 minutes ago, MFX said: As the title suggests, I am thinking about possible projects way down the line, and I was wondering what are the main differences between the 996 or 997 cup car engines and the equivalent GT3 road cars? I have been searching around but I can't really seems to see any info. I understand cup car engines need to be regularly rebuilt. What does that entail? Just replace bearings and check compression, or is it always new everything? I have heard that they idle at around 1500rpm and that they have 13:1 compression? Basically could you make one driveable on the street on 98 (forgetting legality)? You should try to get hold of this guy, he can probably answer all your questions... http://performancedevelopments.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James P Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 2 hours ago, MFX said: As the title suggests, I am thinking about possible projects way down the line, and I was wondering what are the main differences between the 996 or 997 cup car engines and the equivalent GT3 road cars? I have been searching around but I can't really seems to see any info. I understand cup car engines need to be regularly rebuilt. What does that entail? Just replace bearings and check compression, or is it always new everything? I have heard that they idle at around 1500rpm and that they have 13:1 compression? Basically could you make one driveable on the street on 98 (forgetting legality)? I want to know more about this project & would love to see home build Cup Car.. They idle around 2000 & they are not that drivable at slow speeds!! not at all Gone are the days of cheap cup cars & you won't find much under $70k that don't need a lot of $$ spent on them Engines are best left to the professionals to play with as you could turn a $35k engine into a boat anchor very quickly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 996 and 997 Gt3 and cup engines are fundamentally the same ,,,,,,they are all from the same Mezger engine family .....yes there are differences in displacement and other difference that evolved over the engines service life ... Cup engines don,t suffer from the cooling pipe blow outs that the street cars can have due to most of that heating system being deleted in cup car .. There are some other difference simply because one version is a street going engine and the other version is a race motor ,,,,,I am certain you get what I mean . Cup car engines are generally around the $40K for a rebuild every 12 months ,fellow I sprint with just did his engine and gearbox and spend $60 K ,,,,as far as race engine go that is pretty good life span ,,also the later sequential boxs cost a pretty penny on rebuilds A road going GT3 engine would more than likely cost more simply because Cup engines are constantly being freshened up and there are lots of them getting around .. In regards to cars all cup cars are left hand drive and are fitted with all the mandatory safety gear ,,,,you can not register these cars as they have been imported for motorsport purpose only ... If you could do a number job and convert to right hand drive ,,,,remove the full cage ,air jacks and all the other race equipment and convert it back to a street Car I believe it would cost you far more than just buying a road car ... As far a putting a cup engine in a road car it could be done but again more than likely there would be serial number issues and so on .... I am sure other on the site who have cup cars can shed more light on this my advice is based on being around them all the time and racing against them over the years , I have never owned one because they are just to expensive for me to race ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFX Posted 26July, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 5 minutes ago, Raven said: 996 and 997 Gt3 and cup engines are fundamentally the same ,,,,,,they are all from the same Mezger engine family .....yes there are differences in displacement and other difference that evolved over the engines service life ... Cup engines don,t suffer from the cooling pipe blow outs that the street cars can have due to most of that heating system being deleted in cup car .. There are some other difference simply because one version is a street going engine and the other version is a race motor ,,,,,I am certain you get what I mean . Cup car engines are generally around the $40K for a rebuild every 12 months ,fellow I sprint with just did his engine and gearbox and spend $60 K ,,,,as far as race engine go that is pretty good life span ,,also the later sequential boxs cost a pretty penny on rebuilds A road going GT3 engine would more than likely cost more simply because Cup engines are constantly being freshened up and there are lots of them getting around .. In regards to cars all cup cars are left hand drive and are fitted with all the mandatory safety gear ,,,,you can not register these cars as they have been imported for motorsport purpose only ... If you could do a number job and convert to right hand drive ,,,,remove the full cage ,air jacks and all the other race equipment and convert it back to a street Car I believe it would cost you far more than just buying a road car ... As far a putting a cup engine in a road car it could be done but again more than likely there would be serial number issues and so on .... I am sure other on the site who have cup cars can shed more light on this my advice is based on being around them all the time and racing against them over the years ... What are the capacity and power differences between the GT3 and the cup? Just wondering if you got one needing a rebuild, you could lower the comp' and make it more streetable, with a bit more longevity? Do cup cars normally run on 98 or race fuel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 There were difference versions over the Mezger engines sevice life eg 3.6 then 3,8 and even a 4.0 power can differ for 400bhp for a 3.6 450 bhp for a 3.8 and 500bhp for a 4.0 these numbers can vary to depending on the RPM limits air intake restrictors and so on the different cup car classes have various engine guide lines ..As James P said they would be a pain in the ass on the road ,they dont want to go slow and you wouldn,t be able to site in traffic with one ,,,the engines are tuned for racing .. Detuning one for the road yeh its possible but the cost could be more than just having a road going GT3 Mezger ... If it was a simple task I would say many people would be doing it .. Also as I said above cars and engines imported for racing only pay very little import duties and I suspect that Porsche Australia would be all over anyone trying to rebirth a cup motor for street use ,,,the Germans are pretty good with the accounting and would be onto it ... I have also thought about this over the years but have been told by PR Tec and Hamiltons employees who I frequently speak to a sprint meets running customer cars to forget about it ,,,and I would think those guys would be in the know ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James P Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeM Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 Man that would be a slippery and very expensive slope mate. Turning a rego'd 996/7 roadie into a 'cup car' of sorts would be a much easier and cost effective solution I'd imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 6 minutes ago, LeeM said: Man that would be a slippery and very expensive slope mate. Turning a rego'd 996/7 roadie into a 'cup car' of sorts would be a much easier and cost effective solution I'd imagine. Yeh you can see by the video James posted the transmission just dosnt like slow conservative driving its all set up to go flat out all the time and he is on open roads imagine stop start and general traffic in one ..........for get it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFX Posted 26July, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 I wasn't thinking of doing a dodgy number swap cup car for the road, I was thinking more something like this Watching that vid of the cup car on the road, confirms my fears that as a road car it doesn't work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeM Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 That video should be renamed 'Cup car on smooth freeways with no traffic lights' ? Imagine how bone jarring it would be on crap roads! You'd want a few physio vouchers after every drive. That's probably the same bloke on Instagram who frequents Mulholland drive in a road going cup car. I'd love a sequential shifter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFX Posted 26July, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 Just now, LeeM said: That video should be renamed 'Cup car on smooth freeways with no traffic lights' ? Imagine how bone jarring it would be on crap roads! You'd want a few physio vouchers after every drive. That's probably the same bloke on Instagram who frequents Mulholland drive in a road going cup car. I'd love a sequential shifter I know Mark with the road going 997RSR. I saw the car, but he was driving his green beast with us. I should have asked what it was like on the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeM Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 That would be this one http://www.zengarage.com.au/2011/08/wevo-gt3-cup-engined-911/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFX Posted 26July, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 2 minutes ago, LeeM said: That would be this one http://www.zengarage.com.au/2011/08/wevo-gt3-cup-engined-911/ That's the one, but it was built as an Autocross car, not a road car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 I have seen that car rsr rep with the later gt3 motor before i think there is a long build thread on rennlist about it ,,,,,It looked like a lot of work but the owner managed to get it all to work .. Mate you could do that sort of thing to your RSR in the future ,,,,any thing is possible with a little money and determination and skills ..I think you could pull it off .. my 105 Is a good source for cup cars and related spares ,,,,link below http://www.my105.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFX Posted 26July, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 1 minute ago, Raven said: I have seen that car rsr rep with the later gt3 motor before i think there is a long build thread on rennlist about it ,,,,,I looked like a lot of work but the owner managed to get it all to work .. Mate you could do that sort of thing to your RSR in the future ,,,,any thing is possible with a little money and determination and skills ..I think you could pull it off .. my 105 Is a good source for cup cars and related spares ,,,,link below http://www.my105.com/ It only makes sense if it was driveable. I couldn't justify the work for a track only car. If I could get a wrecked GT3 and do the conversion maybe. I was more thinking of getting a complete Cup car and transferring everything. Engine, box, brakes, suspension, the works. I was thinking the best way would actually be to get 2 complete, straight cars. Something like a straight, but non-original 911, which I could sell off the driveline, and a nice straight, well serviced cup car. Sell the cup shell off. It would probably be something I could do for around $130-140k complete (not including a crap load of my labor), and I think if it was done well and engineered, it would be worth a lot more if I ever wanted to sell it, so it wouldn't be just throwing away money. But I have seen the light. I would love to see it done, but I don't think it works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James P Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 Most cup cars & big bits like engines are sold off market between guys that race them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeM Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 Just now, MFX said: That's the one, but it was built as an Autocross car, not a road car. Absolute beast of a thing. I totally get where your head is at with this idea, yet I just think the cost would be horrendous. Even for a global megastar such as yourself! ? If ideas is where you're at for the future, how about a stupidly fast mega light earlier car (or backdated) with a varioram engine? Only from talking to a few Porsche owners last weekend, the consensus seems to be that a lot of drivers want a car that is obnoxious, stupidly fast and one they don't have to worry about getting scratched etc. I was very surprised at a lot of very positive comments to me about my car that was taped, screwed and glued back together just for the drive with the visiting Victorians. It's not that I don't care about it, it's just that I do what I can with basically no spare cash to throw at it, yet people loved it for some reason. I know you do things well and right and I'm not saying build a heap of shit, but something really basic that you can just jump in, turn the key and just thrash! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 You would be better off with a wreaked GT3 road car ,,,salvage engine ,,,driveline ,,,,,wiring ecu and as much as you would need for the conversion ,,,just wait till Targa next year and I am certain some one will total one ....they do just about every year You do on occasion get GT3 Stat ride offs at the insurance auctions and they go relatively cheap depending on damage due to no being able to be registered again....Not certain about the rules on stat ride offs and reuse of the engine and other parts ,,,,I would think it is possible as auto wreakers buy these cars .....A lot of question marks ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James P Posted 26July, 2018 Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 23 minutes ago, MFX said: It only makes sense if it was driveable. I couldn't justify the work for a track only car. If I could get a wrecked GT3 and do the conversion maybe. I was more thinking of getting a complete Cup car and transferring everything. Engine, box, brakes, suspension, the works. I was thinking the best way would actually be to get 2 complete, straight cars. Something like a straight, but non-original 911, which I could sell off the driveline, and a nice straight, well serviced cup car. Sell the cup shell off. It would probably be something I could do for around $130-140k complete (not including a crap load of my labor), and I think if it was done well and engineered, it would be worth a lot more if I ever wanted to sell it, so it wouldn't be just throwing away money. But I have seen the light. I would love to see it done, but I don't think it works for me. Its a good idea in theory & i totally dig it.. maybe it was possible about 5 years ago.. the reality is any damaged GT3 is still going to sell for big money & any good 996 cup will also sell for good money as they are becoming very collectable just like my current one.. The problem with this Porsche boom of recent years is that it has made cars unaffordable to mod as everyone is wanting cars original & as investments At the start of 2013 i bought a damaged 997 GT3 that would have been perfect for a running gear swap hot rod, i fixed it for $7k kept it original & raced it hard for 3 years.. then the Porsche boom came along so i sold for just under double what it cost me. I don't think i could do the same now with a damaged GT3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFX Posted 26July, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 26July, 2018 Getting a written off GT3 would be good, but I think it would be a lot more expensive. I thought of the cup cars, as the are disproportionally cheap compared to their road going brethren. Interestingly, in the US, cup cars are much more expensive. I mentioned that we could get cup cars for $60-70k here, and over there they are closer to $100kUS. I think I will have to go back to the drawing board, on this one. I have plenty of time up my sleeve as I still have 4 unfinished projects, so I don't need another one yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgy Posted 27July, 2018 Report Share Posted 27July, 2018 12 hours ago, Raven said: You would be better off with a wreaked GT3 road car ,,,salvage engine ,,,driveline ,,,,,wiring ecu and as much as you would need for the conversion ,,,just wait till Targa next year and I am certain some one will total one ....they do just about every year wait till next targa, haha I had a good laugh! I like where you are going Jeff! I agree, get a wrecked road car, will be much better to work with... you'd be surprised, they still pop up from time to time... the key will be to get a later one that's on WOVR, as the fact you can't re-register them (well not easily) assures crappy parts only resale. I was in this situation when they wrote of my 996 that time... I was thinking of parting it out to build a long-hood like that WEVO 912... but it was too good and needed to be saved, thank god i did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted 27July, 2018 Report Share Posted 27July, 2018 3 hours ago, MFX said: Getting a written off GT3 would be good, but I think it would be a lot more expensive. I thought of the cup cars, as the are disproportionally cheap compared to their road going brethren. Interestingly, in the US, cup cars are much more expensive. I mentioned that we could get cup cars for $60-70k here, and over there they are closer to $100kUS. I think I will have to go back to the drawing board, on this one. I have plenty of time up my sleeve as I still have 4 unfinished projects, so I don't need another one yet Finish that Beetle Mate I have a real soft spot for them ,,,looking forward to what you do with the interior on it ,,,hoping some sort of blue white color combo ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFX Posted 27July, 2018 Author Report Share Posted 27July, 2018 30 minutes ago, Raven said: Finish that Beetle Mate I have a real soft spot for them ,,,looking forward to what you do with the interior on it ,,,hoping some sort of blue white color combo ... I am filming a Z episode today, and I keep walking past the Beetle and the shell looks sooo good. As for the interior, I am not doing a lot. Just new seat covers and steering wheel all in black. I like the cream, but I didn't want to replace the headliner and carpet, so I am making the best of what I have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavn Posted 27July, 2018 Report Share Posted 27July, 2018 about six months back there was a road 997 (pretty sure wovr) in qld that was offered for sale. Had been taken to cup trim with lightweight doors & bunch of other stuff which made it (according to the ad) competitive with 996 cup times. It sat for quite some time on my105 & from memory was in the 60 - 80 range. I considered it as a lighter cost running alternative to a cup car but Im not certain whether the engine, over a long term, would be any less to maintain given the greater likelihood of failure rates. When I last looked into cup costs I think 1500 per hour was mentioned on a couple of forums as an average (rennlist perhaps) for the cup cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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