Choices - similar $$ buying a classic or a new ?

[Thommo66]

11 hours ago, hugh said:

If your aim is to go fast, easily, with maximum safety & comfort then a newer Porsche is an obvious choice. 

Old Porsche's are still fast cars but require far more effort to manage and extract the results out of - that's exactly what creates the charm and driving satisfaction. I'm more interested in the raw driving experience than the conveniences of a modern car, hence why I'm drawn to the older cars. Yes, modern cars are easier to drive & live with but ironically that's what makes the experience less exciting or rewarding for myself. 

I had a 964 as a daily for almost 3 years (and aside from the turning circle) loved every minute of it. I'm quite happy in a manual as a daily (always) and I'm currently using my LHD 65 as a daily now since I sold my last DD. I'm, actually struggling to justify buying a newer car as a DD as I'm really enjoying cruising around in the 912, makes every journey a novelty. I am well aware that I'm in the minority though.....................I enjoy suffering and tolerating an older car as it also saves me a gym membership. 

New cars are fantastic, they do everything so well. In terms of "sports" cars the fact that they do everything so well is actually the issue seeing as you will barely be able to push the car to 5/10's on a public road. GT4, GT3's etc. are great but unless you hit the track or are prepared to roll the dice on a public road you'll rarely get to experience their capabilities. Accessing the capability of an older car is far easier (at lower speeds) and is no less fun (fact!) 

 So, the decision really comes down to how hard you want to work for the drive. Understandably cars like a 996 are a great happy medium and to me either side of these you start swapping out comforts/sophistication for a more "basic" driving experience/package. Sure, driving around in an old air cooled Porsche looks cool but the sweat stain on your back maybe your downfall. On the plus side massive biceps maybe possible from the lack of power steering (or in my case actually having to wind your windows down manually!) but again you have to be able to accept the inconveniences - driving and relying on old cars daily isn't for everyone but I'll happily do it. 

Great summary @hugh  i think you nailed the dilemma.  I have a couple of mates who both have 991's.  They are fantastic cars and have many more creature comforts and mod cons over my 996tt.  Your point on being prepared to roll the dice on a public road is exactly how I feel.  For me there is only one way to drive the turbo and getting from A to B on our suburban roads which are busier than ever and go from 60 to 50 to 40 and being lucky if you don't get a speeding ticket or get out of 2nd or 3rd gear is just not really fun  ( although 3rd really s a shite load of fun ) ...  And every now and again when I get up at sparrows fart or late and night and give it a real squirt, I feel like I am always rolling the dice ! 

So my basic hypothesis right now is .... lighter car, less power, still great handling = more fun more often. 

cheers @LeeM   i think your'e right mate.  Driving a 993 for 10-15min isn't long enough.  I need to find somebody who has a manual and happy to swap with mine for a solid few hours or ideally 24hrs at least.  

[Tips]

As your Melb based you could always pop down to Dutton’s and test drive this 964 to see what you think of an air cooled car with some go faster bits is like. 

Yes it’s priced up there but it’s been sitting for a while so you never know they may do a straight swap on the TT.

https://duttongarage.com/1989-Porsche-911-964-Carrera-4-Manual-Credible-Singer-Clone-~50255

[hugh]

10 hours ago, Thommo66 said:

Thanks for tracking this down @LeeM  I have no idea how this would drive. Anybody driven this one or the revamped one in the carsales link in the first post ?

Judging from the build it would be a very quick and capable car. A lot rawer than the 996, lighter, smaller & noisier. 

[clutch-monkey]

13 hours ago, LeeM said:

 The Martini I posted is the same car as the 1st link you posted I reckon mate

  It wouldn't drive like a turbo that's for sure. Think you need to drive an air cooled for some distance before dropping some cash on one

agreed,

in an ideal world you'd have both..

[symsy]

Lots of words in these posts , GT3 all the drive thrills character and comfort .. decision made .. go fast and new , unless your gonna build a 993 3.8 hotrod RS clone.  

[1q2w3e4r]

I've got a 6TT, I wouldn't move it from the garage for a 993 C2 or the like, it would have to be a turbo.

Life is better boosted

 

[Thommo66]

22 hours ago, Tips said:

As your Melb based you could always pop down to Dutton’s and test drive this 964 to see what you think of an air cooled car with some go faster bits is like. 

Yes it’s priced up there but it’s been sitting for a while so you never know they may do a straight swap on the TT.

https://duttongarage.com/1989-Porsche-911-964-Carrera-4-Manual-Credible-Singer-Clone-~50255

Thanks @Tips  coincidently I was in Duttons this Sat just past to look at the GT4 I was mentioning earlier.  I did have a good look at this 964.  Looks pretty cool.  A Singer clone it is not though.  May take it out for a spin.  Be a good idea to get a feel for what something like that is like to drive.

[hugh]

45 minutes ago, symsy said:

unless your gonna build a 993 3.8 hotrod RS clone.  

#notanotherbackdate

(Still too many words?) 

[Tips]

57 minutes ago, Thommo66 said:

Thanks @Tips  coincidently I was in Duttons this Sat just past to look at the GT4 I was mentioning earlier.  I did have a good look at this 964.  Looks pretty cool.  A Singer clone it is not though.  May take it out for a spin.  Be a good idea to get a feel for what something like that is like to drive.

If you do and it’s not what your after and that martini backdate is more your style, speak to Karl at duttons he knows of a sweet backdate in your neck of the woods for half the singer clone money. I’m just not ready to pull the trigger 😩

[Rick V]

Totally biased comment..... a 996 GT3 gives the bess if both worlds!!

Makes my ‘85 Carrera feel completely agricultural, but still has a classic feel & look compared to 991’s.  

Modern enough to be comfortable & reliable, but has a rawness on tap.  

Best of all, it’s a (relative) bargain.

Totally biased, as I’m in love with mine! 

[bear924]

I went from a SC to a 6 GT3.

My reasoning:

- I had a SC and the 924 turbo. The two cars are quite different, however being the same vintage also made them very similar. I didn't want (well... I wasn't allowed) three Porsches so I decided to sell one. I've had the 924 forever and know it inside out, so I decided to move the SC on.

- My biggest concern about selling the SC was a concern that a 996 wouldn't feel special. That has not been an issue... I still get excited every time I start my engine.

- It is so nice to have decent air cond and some of the more modern car conveniences. This is especially important as I do long drives in my car and they aren't always on amazing and twisty roads.

- Considered 964s, 993, turbos, 6 GT3s and 7 Gt3s. Decided on a 6 GT3 as I felt it was raw without being old, comfortable without being soft and interesting from a  Pnut point of view. If the pricing between the models was different, I may have come to a different conclusion, however the 6 GT3 just seem like a bargain to me at the moment.  They are a hugely important Porsche model and are now the 'classic' Porsche that modern Porsches are compared to. 

- Was lucky enough to drive a very nice air cooled 911 again recently. It is a very nice car and I would be proud to own it, however it did reinforce to me that the Gt3 was the right car for me at the moment. 

At some stage I might own an aircooled 911 again, however I don't think it will be instead of the Gt3. 

[Fraz]

20 hours ago, bear924 said:

I went from a SC to a 6 GT3.

My reasoning:

- I had a SC and the 924 turbo. The two cars are quite different, however being the same vintage also made them very similar. I didn't want (well... I wasn't allowed) three Porsches so I decided to sell one. I've had the 924 forever and know it inside out, so I decided to move the SC on.

- My biggest concern about selling the SC was a concern that a 996 wouldn't feel special. That has not been an issue... I still get excited every time I start my engine.

- It is so nice to have decent air cond and some of the more modern car conveniences. This is especially important as I do long drives in my car and they aren't always on amazing and twisty roads.

- Considered 964s, 993, turbos, 6 GT3s and 7 Gt3s. Decided on a 6 GT3 as I felt it was raw without being old, comfortable without being soft and interesting from a  Pnut point of view. If the pricing between the models was different, I may have come to a different conclusion, however the 6 GT3 just seem like a bargain to me at the moment.  They are a hugely important Porsche model and are now the 'classic' Porsche that modern Porsches are compared to. 

- Was lucky enough to drive a very nice air cooled 911 again recently. It is a very nice car and I would be proud to own it, however it did reinforce to me that the Gt3 was the right car for me at the moment. 

At some stage I might own an aircooled 911 again, however I don't think it will be instead of the Gt3. 

(One word)

MEZGER 

[Gavn]

On 25/03/2019 at 21:20, Thommo66 said:

Great summary @hugh  i think you nailed the dilemma.  I have a couple of mates who both have 991's.  They are fantastic cars and have many more creature comforts and mod cons over my 996tt.  Your point on being prepared to roll the dice on a public road is exactly how I feel.  For me there is only one way to drive the turbo and getting from A to B on our suburban roads which are busier than ever and go from 60 to 50 to 40 and being lucky if you don't get a speeding ticket or get out of 2nd or 3rd gear is just not really fun  ( although 3rd really s a shite load of fun ) ...  And every now and again when I get up at sparrows fart or late and night and give it a real squirt, I feel like I am always rolling the dice ! 

So my basic hypothesis right now is .... lighter car, less power, still great handling = more fun more often. 

cheers @LeeM   i think your'e right mate.  Driving a 993 for 10-15min isn't long enough.  I need to find somebody who has a manual and happy to swap with mine for a solid few hours or ideally 24hrs at least.  

My conclusion is that about 1000kg or less & 200 - 250hp = maximum pleasure on public roads.  More weight & power is just wasted & more often than not, gets in the way of driving pleasure. 

Edit - having not owned a gt3 of any generation I'd happily exclude it from my comments....

[Coastr]

The aircon issue is easily solved, so people shouldn’t factor that in - it easily adds value to the car if you pull the trigger, so you’d easy get half the money spent on aC back if you sell.  Only the power steering part really is the problem, but it never worries me.  Stereo/Bluetooth / central locking / cruise etc - easily solved.  Parking sensors?  Not needed in an early car, things are tiny.   Airbags?  Yes, ok, you run the risk. At least you’ll never see the dreaded airbag light, nor the check engine light.

I think people should take the chance to drive early cars more often before the smashed avocado  generation votes them off the road completely.

[clutch-monkey]

10 hours ago, Gavin (CliffToCoast) said:

My conclusion is that about 1000kg or less & 200 - 250hp = maximum pleasure on public roads.  More weight & power is just wasted & more often than not, gets in the way of driving pleasure. 

Edit - having not owned a gt3 of any generation I'd happily exclude it from my comments....

agreed.

i still miss my 996 GT3 though. it just needed an extra 20hp or so

[wirthO]

Love my gt4, however like posts above, it needs to be tracked to really enjoy the car.. I love tracking it, so no drama. I wouldn't daily it, and I also go on occasional sunday drives with friends and club runs. But its easy to lose your license, so need to drive well below the cars limits. 

 

[Mick]

The car you need is a 996 GT3. I’ve owned a few early ac cars from stock SC to a modified long hood RSR replica and an SC with great brake and suspension mods with an RSR look again which were all great cars. Also a 997gts which was my first Porsche, this car was beautiful in the mountains with pdk and by far the fastest thing I’ve had for the most forgiving experience. Just bang down the paddles on the brakes and turn it in , mash the throttle on the way out and gone. Lovely around town nice and sedate, turn on sport plus and changes to a proper performance car.  Today I own a 930 and .2 996gt3 and this is how I’ve found it. As for the ac cars the 930 is the best of them they have that extra performance that the early aspirated cars lack and the wider stance makes them a lot nicer on the road as well. As for the gt3 it’s the best of them all , unbelievably engaging road or track , has the nosies and feedback of the early cars with aircon plus an awesome performance from the Mezger engine. Even at suburban speeds it still twitches down the road like having a race horse on a pony trail, it’s always there asking to go when your ready. Definitely the car I’d have if I had to have just one Porsche. 

[OBRUT]

Everyone has a view - for me, an early car (64-73) with about 200-240 odd horsepower is the sweet spot in terms of driving fun.  Addding modern air con (like the new all electric units) makes them workable in summer traffic. Power steering is not required in my opinion, just don’t fit a too small steering wheel.

As others have stated, start asking for rides and drives and see what fits you best.  

Ps.  In terms of full disclosure, I’m also rocking a tipper...

[DJM]

23 hours ago, Gavin (CliffToCoast) said:

My conclusion is that about 1000kg or less & 200 - 250hp = maximum pleasure on public roads.  More weight & power is just wasted & more often than not, gets in the way of driving pleasure. 

Edit - having not owned a gt3 of any generation I'd happily exclude it from my comments....

I agree with all of this.  Best fun I ever had was a Westfield clubman 240hp/600kg.  Great Honda vtec noise, snickerty 6 speedbox, LSD, exposed to the elements, go kart handling, light on tyres and pads, faster than most cars on the road.  But not safe in traffic and you would NOT want to crash it.  Survived 2 years, next.

then I had a 964C2 manual, felt heavy and sluggish to me, I didn't love it, lasted 4 months.  Other than a 993 RS 3.8 build I can't imagine I'd go back there.

then a 996 GT2, 600hp way too fast for the road and to me felt a bit arse heavy with those big 315 steamroller rears.  great car but just a little something lacking.  Was a blast for 2 years but lucky to survive and keep a licence 

then a GT4, cracker car, mid engine balance, felt more nimble, strangely felt quite similar to the Westfield but a bit TOO competent and inert at road speeds and so I didn't use it much.  I just didn't tend to just go for a blast like I did in the clubbie.

now an M3 Comp DD tuned to 500hp.  Super fast, sounds good, handles well but too bland at road speeds, too heavy.  It'll be gone soon

My track car is an RX7 with lots of power and light weight - awesome, as fast as a 991 RS but too anti social to consider on the road.  

when I had the Westfield my brother would often pop round and borrow it and be gone down the peninsula all day and come back with a massive grin.  why? I reckon it's the chuckable light weight, simple engine = reliable but fast

im constantly mulling old datsuns, escorts, lotus etc chasing the light weight nirvana but I'm sure the experience would not match the dream

a few have said 996 GT3.  For whatever reasons I have never owned a 3.......yet 🤔 I imagine it's like a GT4 but more raw and old school feeling which suggests it probably is a good compromise.  Maybe the best fit of the bunch.

or maybe I should just buy an electric SUV and give up the chase......😂

[OBRUT]

18 hours ago, DJM said:

I agree with all of this.  Best fun I ever had was a Westfield clubman 240hp/600kg.  Great Honda vtec noise, snickerty 6 speedbox, LSD, exposed to the elements, go kart handling, light on tyres and pads, faster than most cars on the road.  But not safe in traffic and you would NOT want to crash it.  Survived 2 years, next.

then I had a 964C2 manual, felt heavy and sluggish to me, I didn't love it, lasted 4 months.  Other than a 993 RS 3.8 build I can't imagine I'd go back there.

then a 996 GT2, 600hp way too fast for the road and to me felt a bit arse heavy with those big 315 steamroller rears.  great car but just a little something lacking.  Was a blast for 2 years but lucky to survive and keep a licence 

then a GT4, cracker car, mid engine balance, felt more nimble, strangely felt quite similar to the Westfield but a bit TOO competent and inert at road speeds and so I didn't use it much.  I just didn't tend to just go for a blast like I did in the clubbie.

now an M3 Comp DD tuned to 500hp.  Super fast, sounds good, handles well but too bland at road speeds, too heavy.  It'll be gone soon

My track car is an RX7 with lots of power and light weight - awesome, as fast as a 991 RS but too anti social to consider on the road.  

when I had the Westfield my brother would often pop round and borrow it and be gone down the peninsula all day and come back with a massive grin.  why? I reckon it's the chuckable light weight, simple engine = reliable but fast

im constantly mulling old datsuns, escorts, lotus etc chasing the light weight nirvana but I'm sure the experience would not match the dream

a few have said 996 GT3.  For whatever reasons I have never owned a 3.......yet 🤔 I imagine it's like a GT4 but more raw and old school feeling which suggests it probably is a good compromise.  Maybe the best fit of the bunch.

or maybe I should just buy an electric SUV and give up the chase......😂

Buy an early chassis car and throw a 3.2 in the back with a fruity exhaust. Good suspension, skinny tyres and you’re done.  Stock brakes with good pads and fluid are fine.   I have a 73 targa like this and it’s a cracker.  

I think 3.2’s are a better option for an early car than a 3.6. They give heaps of dumb, reliable grunt but don’t overwhelm the basic architecture.  6 or 7 inch wheels with say 205’s fit under standard bodywork and are more than enough tyre. 

[Zelrik911]

19 minutes ago, OBRUT said:

Buy an early chassis car and throw a 3.2 in the back with a fruity exhaust. Good suspension, skinny tyres and you’re done.  Stock brakes with good pads and fluid are fine.   I have a 73 targa like this and it’s a cracker.  

I think 3.2’s are a better option for an early car than a 3.6. They give heaps of dumb, reliable grunt but don’t overwhelm the basic architecture.  6 or 7 inch wheels with say 205’s fit under standard bodywork and are more than enough tyre. 

I can assure you that a 3.6 in a mid year Carrera , in its non-modified standard form, has double the dumb, reliable grunt of a 3.2.

Its basic architecture (993 iteration ) is very much simpler than the 3.0's & 3.2's. Its very reliable (unstressed) and fast & pleasantly easy to tinker with in a G series body.

Mine is a little bit anti-social /dramatic - but that could just be me, not the car.

[Peter M]

3 minutes ago, Zelrik911 said:

….. a 3.6.... has double the dumb, reliable grunt of a 3.2.

………….Its basic architecture (993 iteration ) is very much simpler than the 3.0's & 3.2's.

Zelrik,

Can you elaborate please?

[OBRUT]

7 minutes ago, Zelrik911 said:

I can assure you that a 3.6 in a mid year Carrera , in its non-modified standard form, has double the dumb, reliable grunt of a 3.2.

Its basic architecture (993 iteration ) is very much simpler than the 3.0's & 3.2's. Its very reliable (unstressed) and fast & pleasantly easy to tinker with in a G series body.

Mine is a little bit anti-social /dramatic - but that could just be me, not the car.

I meant the architecture of the chassis not the engine. A 3.6 in a light early car with skinny tyres can be a bit “all motor”.

Different in a mid year car, as you have a bit more weight and usually a 8 or 9 inch rear wheel and more tyre, say 225 or 245.  

Same idea though, my thoughts were just in context for people chasing the long hood car look/feel. 

[hugh]

3 hours ago, OBRUT said:

Buy an early chassis car and throw a 3.2 in the back with a fruity exhaust. Good suspension, skinny tyres and you’re done.  Stock brakes with good pads and fluid are fine.   I have a 73 targa like this and it’s a cracker.  

I think 3.2’s are a better option for an early car than a 3.6. They give heaps of dumb, reliable grunt but don’t overwhelm the basic architecture.  6 or 7 inch wheels with say 205’s fit under standard bodywork and are more than enough tyre. 

 

2 hours ago, OBRUT said:

I meant the architecture of the chassis not the engine. A 3.6 in a light early car with skinny tyres can be a bit “all motor”.

Different in a mid year car, as you have a bit more weight and usually a 8 or 9 inch rear wheel and more tyre, say 225 or 245.  

Same idea though, my thoughts were just in context for people chasing the long hood car look/feel. 

Very wise words from a very experienced 911 owner and driver. What you have articulated is the essence of what I believe is a 911's sweetest spot. Early car, mildly warmed motor (you can make these car less effective to drive and ultimately slower by having to much HP!) + neat suspension and skinny tyre combo - mwah. 

Long term, my blue car will go back to its original skinny hips with period skinny rubber and in that form is (to me) my ultimate 911. 

[OBRUT]

4 minutes ago, hugh said:

 

Very wise words from a very experienced 911 owner and driver. What you have articulated is the essence of what I believe is a 911's sweetest spot. Early car, mildly warmed motor (you can make these car less effective to drive and ultimately slower by having to much HP!) + neat suspension and skinny tyre combo - mwah. 

Long term, my blue car will go back to its original skinny hips with period skinny rubber and in that form is (to me) my ultimate 911. 

Thanks Hugh - here is some motivation: this is 7’s with a 205/60 with stock skinny rear guards.