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It seems that fuel cost is a common reason to look at an EV. If EV become more common the fuel cost will rise to match or even exceed fossil cost as the Governments will need to replace lost revenue and given they will have full control of your supply at state level will most certainly charge significantly more if you want to charge at peak times, at night or on low wind days. The faster you charge the more you will pay as well. Rationing is already here renamed as "load demand" and we can expect a lot more "rationing" in our future even without an EV rollout so buckle up this will be a wild ride.

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18 minutes ago, Redracn said:

It seems that fuel cost is a common reason to look at an EV. If EV become more common the fuel cost will rise to match or even exceed fossil cost as the Governments will need to replace lost revenue and given they will have full control of your supply at state level will most certainly charge significantly more if you want to charge at peak times, at night or on low wind days. The faster you charge the more you will pay as well. Rationing is already here renamed as "load demand" and we can expect a lot more "rationing" in our future even without an EV rollout so buckle up this will be a wild ride.

Do you therefore recommend a solar and battery installation.  With or without EV?

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I honestly have no dog in this race. My only gripe is the EU are systematically destroying what I love about cars so they can be seen to be doing something on emissions, when in reality cars are a convenient scapegoat that actually only count for 3% of CO2 annually.

Easy way for the oligarchs to kick the can down the road for another 20 years though and divert the public's attention from the real emitters (power, construction, mining, manufacturing, and farming).

All this change is going to do is hit those least able to afford it. My power bill goes from insane to insane plus $3k a quarter it's not going to affect me at all (or moderate my use). But it is going to affect those on fixed incomes, low income earners, and pensioners of all flavours.

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2 hours ago, Pork Chops said:

Do you therefore recommend a solar and battery installation.  With or without EV?

Advice as to the best power supply heading forward is like financial advice as it depends on your situation, ability to go without and future predictions. 

As an Electrical Engineer my view is that Electricity costs are only going to go up with more renewables as they need 100% backup and the suppliers of that backup expect a return on their investment so will charge appropriately. Use them less and they will simply charge more. The government has a limit on how much can be charged of $14,2000/MWH which limits their ability to recover cost. Many other additional costs due to renewables but that's another story.

One possible scenario.

To give your EV a full charge at night you will need a battery of similar size to the one in the EV. So a 75KWH Tesla will require 6 Powerwall II at around 13K each that's $78K and the life expectancy is 10 years so that's $7,800 a year just to own the storage batteries. Now the size of the  solar panels and batteries you actually need depends on how much you drive and how many days you need to go without sunshine. It could be both bigger or smaller depending on your ability to handle not having the car available. You could spend an even bigger fortune on batteries and solar panels but there will still be the odd occasion you run out of power. So to cover that you can use the grid or have your own genset. The smaller the solar/battery system the more you will need the grid/genset or go without. A quality 8KVA 1500rpm diesel is over 10K but has a very long life. Current fuel cost for a diesel for domestic electricity use 1.1L for 4KWH @ 85cL  or about 23cents/KWH for fuel cost plus asset cost and maintenance.

Currently that $7800/year will buy 5,600 L of diesel at $1.40/L my V8 diesel Touareg would do 66,000klm on that much fuel and many smaller diesels could nearly double that. And that is just the cost of owning the batteries and not the panels etc.

That  8KVA genset on $7,800 worth of diesel @85cL is 9200L or 33.4MWH I use 18KWH/day = 6.6MWH/year so $7800 would run my house for 5 years

Batteries in the power supply make no sense except in the outback and even then the biggest benefit is not having to listen to the generator at night and having some power overnight when consumption is lower and running the generator is less efficient. 

 

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7 hours ago, Redracn said:

It seems that fuel cost is a common reason to look at an EV. If EV become more common the fuel cost will rise to match or even exceed fossil cost as the Governments will need to replace lost revenue and given they will have full control of your supply at state level will most certainly charge significantly more if you want to charge at peak times, at night or on low wind days. The faster you charge the more you will pay as well. Rationing is already here renamed as "load demand" and we can expect a lot more "rationing" in our future even without an EV rollout so buckle up this will be a wild ride.

This is especially true in Australia where electricity supply has been a politicians play thing for 15 years or so, with the ever increasing prices.  Right now where I am electricity costs 0.09c/kWh which is way cheaper than what Australia charges.  Governments will raid electricity supply to recover lost fuel taxes when it starts to bite.  Right now early ev adopters are getting subsidised to buy and avoiding taxes to drive, which is partially why the numbers look so good.  I expect registration will go up to compensate rather than over taxing electricity.

Id still have a daily driver ev for the simplicity, fun to drive factor and low maintenance aspect, even if the fuel cost reduces.

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11 hours ago, Pork Chops said:

Do you therefore recommend a solar and battery installation.  With or without EV?

I have 8kW solar PV and 1 Tesla battery, I wanted to "test drive" to be able to tell clients what I think.  Any mathematical  analysis suggests battery costs need to fall a fair bit more to ensure a sensible payback period.  So for now they don't stack financially. But there is a certain feel good factor in storing up kWh to use during peak times rather than giving away surplus energy for a pittance.  When we first got the battery we used to monitor the app all the time"ooh 95% self powered today".  Does it save me money overall, nope but it's "only" $-2k and I suppose I'll save affair proportion over its life.

I struggle to understand why solar PV and EVs attract so much mathematical argument.  If buying anything in life was purely a rational economic decision, we'd all be wearing Big W track suits, eating white bread jaffles and riding a bike to work or driving a Kia.  No one ever calculates pay back or fuel mileage when buying a GT3 or a 70" LCD TV......there is always a significant personal preference, emotional hook or "I just want" mindset when buying anything particularly for the Porsche community with surplus disposable income.  Seen the roped off queue at the Gucci store at Chaddy.......?  where's their financial justification for an ugly pair of $800 shoes?

So do I recommend solar PV.  Yeah I do.  Simple, it works, it stacks up.  Do I recommend batteries, well no if you're trying to save money.  @Redracn will prove that with his EE logic. But yes if you want one!

 I'm currently designing my next home and I'll cover every sq.m of roof in PV panels, I'll probably stump up for a battery or 2 as well opefully they're a bit cheaper by then and I reckon I'll make provision for a plug in hybrid SUV in some form.  Not because it is "cheaper" than not doing so but because "i want to" and I can afford it.  To match my Gucci loafers...

On EVs particularly, to me a hybrid makes the most sense in aus given difficultly in providing the infrastructure for EVs and our propensity for long drives. In a hybrid, I can drift to work 25km and back on EV power for shits and giggles, stop infrequently for fuel and still tow 3.5T for 10h to the beach to our favourite camping spot with zero range anxiety.  Average sub 5L/100km which reduces the amount of chips and energy drinks I'll consume.....  Will my 1 or 2 batteries charge my hybrid every day, well no because I don't have $0 power bills now so adding more demand won't help and a second battery is not enou to bridge the gap.  I'd need a farm 🤔 For the panels and a garage full of batteries to go off grid.

Pretty sure I can slow charge off the camp ground 240V plug while the car sits idle for a couple of weeks though.  Thanks Big 4.  Oh and there is a feel good factor that I'm choking Moe and Morwell residents with coal soot rather than polluting my neighbourhood (jokes.... 😂)

love or hate them, logic, man maths or whatever EVs are coming from every manufacturer so it's inevitable despite what we all would prefer.  I'll get aboard in some form just because and I'm loathe to invest in another diesel SUV that will make me a social pariah in a few years.  Chris Harris talked about a new diesel X7 on his podcast, in 3 years when they come off lease in the UK he thinks they will be worthless.  He's not en EV lover at all but is realistic about where it's headed.  

 

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I don't think the 'social pariah' thing will come into it here, well maybe in inner Melbourne and Sydney. The rest of the country won't give a stuff what you drive.

Would anyone drive a 911 if you cared what other people thought?

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18 hours ago, LeeM said:

  I don't know enough about them to make a judgement, only what I've read and been told, yet to me they have their place in society for those who wish to buy them, of which I have no opposition to. As I've mentioned before elsewhere, I'd buy/lease an EV van to use everyday if they were the same or similar price to a Toyota Hiace I currently own and drive, as it would save me thousands of dollars in fuel costs (if I remembered to charge it up when I frequently forget to do to my cordless tool batteries), yet they don't yet, so I have no other need or want for an EV. Secondly, I don't really trust the technology 100% as yet, but I'm sure they will become a more viable option to the masses when the technology and battery life improves (which it seems to be doing pretty quickly), and the purchase prices come down to a level where people like me can afford to buy one. $60k to me is a shitload of cash to drop on a car, any car, that is going to depreciate rapidly, not to mention the current well documented battery life which will be an expensive fix if they shit themselves.

 If I didnt need my van for work, I'd probably be buying a some sort of hybrid car, as that way you have the best of both worlds instead of relying solely on a pure EV vehicle. Or I'd just buy a Harley Vrod for the daily commute 😁

absolutely. tesla's are a toy to me right now due to cost, i have no interest in spending that much on a commuter car or a car i have no great passion for. i have a few friends who have imported nissan leaf's for 23-24k and that is appealing to me for a daily commute. the lower cost, and apparent ability to hook the car up to act like a tesla powerall, is appealing. the main draw cards for me would be not having to stop for petrol, just plug in overnight and go, and not having to spin spanners as much for a daily. i have a pretty hefty solar system at home and at work so could do something in that regard as well.
combine that with an electric assisted pushbike and i'll pretty much have all my local travel covered.

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4 hours ago, DJM said:

I have 8kW solar PV and 1 Tesla battery, I wanted to "test drive" to be able to tell clients what I think.  Any mathematical  analysis suggests battery costs need to fall a fair bit more to ensure a sensible payback period.  So for now they don't stack financially. But there is a certain feel good factor in storing up kWh to use during peak times rather than giving away surplus energy for a pittance.  When we first got the battery we used to monitor the app all the time"ooh 95% self powered today".  Does it save me money overall, nope but it's "only" $-2k and I suppose I'll save affair proportion over its life.

I struggle to understand why solar PV and EVs attract so much mathematical argument.  If buying anything in life was purely a rational economic decision, we'd all be wearing Big W track suits, eating white bread jaffles and riding a bike to work or driving a Kia.  No one ever calculates pay back or fuel mileage when buying a GT3 or a 70" LCD TV......there is always a significant personal preference, emotional hook or "I just want" mindset when buying anything particularly for the Porsche community with surplus disposable income.  Seen the roped off queue at the Gucci store at Chaddy.......?  where's their financial justification for an ugly pair of $800 shoes?

So do I recommend solar PV.  Yeah I do.  Simple, it works, it stacks up.  Do I recommend batteries, well no if you're trying to save money.  @Redracn will prove that with his EE logic. But yes if you want one!

 I'm currently designing my next home and I'll cover every sq.m of roof in PV panels, I'll probably stump up for a battery or 2 as well opefully they're a bit cheaper by then and I reckon I'll make provision for a plug in hybrid SUV in some form.  Not because it is "cheaper" than not doing so but because "i want to" and I can afford it.  To match my Gucci loafers...

On EVs particularly, to me a hybrid makes the most sense in aus given difficultly in providing the infrastructure for EVs and our propensity for long drives. In a hybrid, I can drift to work 25km and back on EV power for shits and giggles, stop infrequently for fuel and still tow 3.5T for 10h to the beach to our favourite camping spot with zero range anxiety.  Average sub 5L/100km which reduces the amount of chips and energy drinks I'll consume.....  Will my 1 or 2 batteries charge my hybrid every day, well no because I don't have $0 power bills now so adding more demand won't help and a second battery is not enou to bridge the gap.  I'd need a farm 🤔 For the panels and a garage full of batteries to go off grid.

Pretty sure I can slow charge off the camp ground 240V plug while the car sits idle for a couple of weeks though.  Thanks Big 4.  Oh and there is a feel good factor that I'm choking Moe and Morwell residents with coal soot rather than polluting my neighbourhood (jokes.... 😂)

love or hate them, logic, man maths or whatever EVs are coming from every manufacturer so it's inevitable despite what we all would prefer.  I'll get aboard in some form just because and I'm loathe to invest in another diesel SUV that will make me a social pariah in a few years.  Chris Harris talked about a new diesel X7 on his podcast, in 3 years when they come off lease in the UK he thinks they will be worthless.  He's not en EV lover at all but is realistic about where it's headed.  

 

Agree about hybrids as being a far better option in Aus.

Also agree that for most/some on this forum the cost argument is academic but for the vast majority it matters a lot and for these technologies to make any difference to CO2 emissions and a clean energy future it has be be viable for the masses. By masses I also mean in China, India etc as without them onboard nothing done in Australia will make any difference. We in Aus could stop all emissions tomorrow and China growth will cover that in a month. 

Sola PV just pushes the cost of storage back onto the grid rather than seeing the bill for your batteries. So far the grid and non solar customers have worn this cost but will that continue?

The manufactures are being forced to make EV's by governments. One method of coercion is the banning of ICE from specific areas or markets and the other even worse one is Corporate Average Fleet Consumption in the EU and USA that require a minimum mileage be achieved across the fleet and this number is getting smaller and smaller and smaller (CO2/km). The only currently viable way to use less fossil fuel at the car is go electric and burn that fossil fuel in a power station where it is not counted in the consumption calculations. Hydrogen may also get a look in but most is currently produced from fossil fuels. Lots of people will have to buy electric so we can still get an ICE Porsche sports car. All this because the government is taking more control of our lives. The EU already dictates the energy properties of toasters, kettles, vacuum cleaners and cars.

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I prefer the average method. Its the only reason that ICE has lasted as long as it has in Europe.

Such a waste of resources though. 3% of emissions is going to do nothing. Even if you include trucks its approx 7-8% total.

The lowest hanging fruit is power generation, and that is 25-30% depending on who you believe.

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I wonder if the x7 in the uk will get a second post Brexit life?

somehow I doubt it.  They’re likely to just adopt eu standards and let that drive their choices, just like we in Australia let eu dictate many product choices (stupidly!)

i do find it disturbing that all of Europe went ‘go diesel’ save the co2, and then after their cities became choked with black particulate they decided ‘yeah maybe no’. And then moves to ban the very tech they forced everyone into.  At least electrics can provide cleaner quieter cities even if you don’t agree with government forcing the change (I don’t)

its true it’s entirely academic for Australians to change any global environment outcome - which is why I would rather talk a out electuxs as a vehicle technology rather than as a political outcome or statement.  

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Porsche were onto EVs 40 years ago with the 1979 911 "E" 😂

 

 

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Yikes!  That’s no fun for a firey to deal with.   It actually looks Hollywood with those explosions 

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not so environmentally friendly now .........................:Chuckle2: 

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5 hours ago, Coastr said:

Yikes!  That’s no fun for a firey to deal with.   It actually looks Hollywood with those explosions 

 I thought it was a movie until I read it was a crash. Would the fireys have to let it burn or? @9er @MFX  ?

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To be honest, almost any modern car burns and explodes almost as bad as that. With all of the airbags and other charges in cars these days they pop and bang like crazy. It still scares the sh!t out of me every time though :D  

We still put them out, I just make sure I am standing back ;) 

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 @MFX I just thought the lithium batteries might be a problem for you guys 

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1 hour ago, LeeM said:

 @MFX I just thought the lithium batteries might be a problem for you guys 

Definitely could be an issue, but the amount of crazy metals and components in cars these days, when they burn it is nasty either way.

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39 minutes ago, MFX said:

Definitely could be an issue, but the amount of crazy metals and components in cars these days, when they burn it is nasty either way.

 I've been in attendance when a magnesium engine block was thrown on a fire (we were all well pissed) and apart from near retina burns, that sucker burnt for ages! 😁

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So it’s likely airbags doing the exploding?  Modern cars have a lot of airbags in them, not surprised.

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1 hour ago, Coastr said:

So it’s likely airbags doing the exploding?  Modern cars have a lot of airbags in them, not surprised.

I am not sure. I just know that there are a bunch of explosions that happen when new cars burn. It keeps you on your toes that's for sure ;)

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