My Carrera 3.2

[TINGY]

9 minutes ago, Peter M said:

Oxley Highway today.

Bastard.....

[OZ930]

Getting in a few practice runs before the Bendy Bender Pete ?

[Peter M]

Electronic Fuel Injection

The 3.2's were sophisticated for their day.  The Bosch Motronic united the signals from all the engine functions and integrated the control of spark timing and fuel metering into the same microprocessor.  The use of 3 dimensional maps allowed timing and fuel to be mapped against rpm and loading (measured airflow).  Cutting edge stuff in the late 70's where Bosch at BMW's request integrated their L Jetronic fuel injection with their knowledge of electronic ignition control.

Unfortunately those that wanted to modify their 3.2's were limited by the sensitivity of the airflow meter (AFM) to reversion and laborious and iterative job of having to re-flash a removable chip with new fuel and timing maps whenever modifications were required.

I started out planning to have Mr Wong (or upsize to Mr Carceller with his MAF replacing the AFM) to do a special chip for me and this is the main reason I chose  a mild cam with little overlap (993SS with 114 degree lobe centres) as from what I could gather that was all the AFM could cope with.  With more research I realised I wanted to make use of the technology advances that have occurred rapidly over the last 40 years.  I wanted to use modern injectors, I wanted the throttle to be sharp and responsive, I didn't want a distributor.  Pretty much I wanted a fuel and ignition system from a modern car.

I looked at Haltech and even did their 2 day training course, thought seriously of a VEMS from Peeps in Estonia and then Martin put me in contact with Benny.  "You need a Motec" he said and that was the beginning of a slippery slope.

My 3.2 has:

Motec M130GPA ECU

Direct fire of 12 Nippon Denso CoP's

Full sequential with Bosch 4 hole fuel injectors 0280 155 868's (running at around 60% duty cycle at full load)

AFM delete.  Load modelling based on manifold absolute pressure, air temperature and throttle position 

Twin knock sensors mounted on 964/993 knock bridges attached to the underside of heads

Twin wideband O2 sensors to allow each cylinder to have individual fuel and ignition trims

Fuel pressure, air intake temperature and throttle position sensors

Cam position sensor to correctly time the direct fire ignition and injection

36-1 crank wheel and sensor.  I wanted to use the standard flywheel arrangement but couldn't get a straight answer out of Haltech about whether their Elites would support this application.

Clewett plug for the now vacant distributor hole in the crankcase!

The AFM delete tube took 96hours to 3D print

The standard 3.2 only has a switch to sense if it is at idle or WOT.  A modern ecu needs to know a bit more.  The adaptor plate is from EFI Hardware in Victoria and the TPS is a BMW style one from a Z3, Z4 or Z8 with BMW part no.: 13631402143 or 13637840383 or OEM Lowe part no.: 63143.  About 40 bucks.

 

Knock bridges from a 964/993 were attached to the heads rather than the barrels.  The Motec is able to filter out the valve train noise.

 

We started out calling this the "Auxiliary Harness" but it quickly became apparent that was a misnomer.

 

The other end of the Auxiliary Harness.  No factory harnesses where harmed in this work so the car can be easily returned to standard if I ever sustain a head injury and want to go backwards.  Under the 3D printed box is the M130 unit plus some relays.  Some functions of the old factory harness (such as driving the tacho) are still used but had to upgrade the power supply conductor as the 12 coils draw about 15 amps.

 

Why no individual throttle bodies like all the SC boys do?

I wanted the engine to remain largely stock looking so I could sneak it through on Historic rego and only on second glance for it to give up its secrets.  Plus the big aluminium intake manifold is one of my favourite 3.2 appearance features.  Not that it's function is all that great though.

 

Why no drive by wire?

Could be done easily as the Motec can actually handle two throttle bodies and would allow me to increase the size of the throttle body.  However the standard 3.2 cable set up works pretty well with little striction so I haven't gone down this path.....yet.  Also I can't actually ascertain how much the standard sized throttle body is holding me back so it could end up  just being an expensive experiment. 

 

Why no turbo?

While the car isn't perfect, its a bit to good to cut up for a turbo installation and just wanted something that had just enough.  I also have a theory that the most fun cars and motorcycles are the ones that you can thrash regularly without scaring yourself too much or ...…….dying.

 

 

 

 

 

[TINGY]

13 minutes ago, Peter M said:

 

I looked at Haltech and even did their 2 day training course, thought seriously of a VEMS from Peeps in Estonia and then Martin put me in contact with Benny.  "You need a Motec" he said and that was the beginning of a slippery slope.

I remember a conversation where some other bloke said to go MOTEC!

[Peter M]

1 hour ago, TINGY996 said:

I remember a conversation where some other bloke said to go MOTEC!

I remember HIS son said the same thing too!

See, I do listen to you.

[Peter M]

New to 3.2 Ownership?

This is what I've learnt:

Make a List - They all seem to be bought by people who use them for a year or two before the realities of poor standard air conditioning, poor ventilation, unassisted steering and general not a lot of fun in traffic see them being used less and less.  Flat batteries compound this further and they get used even less.  A seized brake caliper from lack of use and the owner starts to see it as a money pit rather than a means of channelling their youth and better times.  Expect your new car will have deferred maintenance and many odd jobs to do.  I've found making a list makes sure these jobs are done as quickly and efficiently, you have the right parts on hand as you need them and not redoing work.  Need new front shock absorbers, check the bushes and upgrade the tie rods while you're at it so you only need to do one steering alignment for example.  My red car is currently on Job No. 78, with at least dozen to go before I'll be satisfied.  My white gold 3.2 got to the fifties.

 

 

Tyres - Nothing makes these cars a bigger dud to drive than a set of old or unsuitable tyres.  The handling will be all understeer or all oversteer with not much in between and no fun at all.   A good set of tyre make these cars very neutral and trustworthy.  The tyres don't have to be expensive.  I'm having great success with Bridgestone Potenza RE003's in standard sizes.  They are also great in the wet.  These cars don't need wide tyres or rims on the street.  They don't have enough power or weight and why destroy that great steering feel that is one of their main attractions anyway.

 

 

Add some fuses - Take the time to add in line fuses to the ash tray and ventilation control light circuits.  No doubt one of your first jobs will be to replace the old disco stereo head unit,  which will probably result in you disturbing the lamp holder in the ashtray and causing a short that will take years off your life as the cabin fills with smoke

Also add one to the front air conditioning blower fan while you're on a roll as I understand they cause a spectacular amount of melted wiring in the frunk when the blower motor seizes.

 

 

Add 5hp for Free - An amazing number of 3.2's are reassembled with the bottom clamp on the rubber air intake elbow assembled so that the worm housing stops the throttle reaching wide open.  Even the most experienced Porsche specialists fall into this trap.  Simply loosen and swivel the clamp around so that clamp housing is at the rear.  ie so that the screw centreline is across the car rather than running lengthwise.  You'll notice the photos of my car above suffered this problem.  I called my tuner when I saw a photo he'd posted and after 30 seconds work gained 9 real Mainline hp (equivalent to 15 hp on US forums!).

 

 

A Reasonable Substitution for Face Level Fresh Air - I added a rocker switch between the two AC control knobs on the consul.  This allows me to run the AC blower fan without having the air conditioning compressor running.  With the footwell air vent open and receiving fresh air from the air intake above the bonnet, the AC blower fan then redirects at least some of this air to the dashboard vents.  I used a Narva illuminated rocker switch so that I know when the AC compressor is energised or not when the AC blower is operating.  HOWEVER, before you do this, check your AC thermostat is actually working and cycling the AC on and off at the right temperature.  If the thermostat is working properly it can be adjusted to do the same as described above.  I should have replaced my thermostat first!

 

 

Better Headlights - Don't bother with higher wattage bulbs and LED's, just install a relay kit like the J West one to improve voltage at the bulbs and make the headlight dimmer switch last longer.

 

 

K&N Air Filters - There is no greater form of abuse these cars suffer than running one of these filters.  They may work OK if the filter is properly cared for but in my experience that doesn't happen and the filter allows dust into the engine to slowly grind away your rings and contaminate your oil.  If you after cheap horsepower, this isn't a solution.  Run the stock paper one.   (Don't start me on those numb nuts that run no filters or tea strainers on their itb's because it "..looks cool".  No, it doesn't, it just shows you have no idea.)

 

 

Squeaking Fan Motors - These cars have a large number of fan motors that have oilite style bearings.  After many years the lubricant is lost and the motor will develop a squeak that will drive you crazy.  I have found if you sit the motor in a small container of engine oil overnight that is deep enough to cover most of the bearing but not so deep to contaminate the brushes or the armature, these motors can be successfully saved.

 

 

Repaint the Fuel Tank - By now the stone guard coating will have lifted around the tank seam and rust taken hold as the foam seal holds moisture.  Left too long and the tank will hole and start leaking.  If the area of stone guard is small, it can be patched with seam sealer and stippled with a shorten bristled paint brush (and a flat palm after it has skinned over) to replicate the original finish.  Where the coating has lifted over larger areas you'll need to reapply new stone guard.  To get the right colour I've been using a water based Whiteknight product from Bunnings that I apply with a small long nap roller that I mix to the right colour.  I have found the colour of the original tank finishes varies from an olive green to grey so there is no one colour I can recommend if you want to retain the original look of your particular car.

 

Obviously not the red car but you get the idea and the resulting finish from the above method.  For the pre G50 cars, I suggest you carry a spare clutch cable. On my '85 I inserted it into a length of vinyl tube from Bunnings and wrapped it around the space saver rim to stop it rattling or being damaged.

You may want to replace the fuel pump while the tanks out as they're not that expensive and by now the original will be on borrowed time.

 

 

Engine Fuel Hoses - The rubber hoses on all these cars will be pretty close to end of life and will leak.  Replace before they leak and start a fire.  Don't forget the short ones on the pressure regulators!

 

 

Fuel Injectors - They're likely near rooted too.  I've had good success with substituting modern Bosch 4 hole injectors.  Can't recall the part number but all the guff is detailed here:

 

 

 

Air Conditioning Not Working As Good As It Should? -  Replace the two seals on the butterflies either side of the fresh air blower as they will  be no doubt allowing hot air from the plenum to mix with the chilled air making it, ah less chilled when it comes from the vents!  The seals can be easily made from some 4-6mm thick closed cell foam sheeting.

Don't be Too Hasty to Replace AC Compressor - These are really easy and cheap to put a new seals kit through to fix the oil leak they eventually develop.  Assuming they are lubricated and not operated when degassed, they seem like they never wear out, just get a leaky front seal.

 

I'll add more as I think of them!

   

[G5032]

Great tips!

agree 1000% on the tires, a set of Potenza 003’s and a proper alignment/corner balance totally transformed my car..

has no idea about the clamp!! Checking ASAP!

[Airhead]

14 minutes ago, Peter M said:

check the bushes and upgrade the tie rods while you're at

Why does everyone say to upgrade the tie rods? Do the standard ones break or it just a thing to do?

[GUT]

1 minute ago, Airhead said:

Why does everyone say to upgrade the tie rods? Do the standard ones break or it just a thing to do?

Seems crazy but it made a massive improvement to the feel of my old Carrera

[Peter M]

38 minutes ago, Airhead said:

Why does everyone say to upgrade the tie rods? Do the standard ones break or it just a thing to do?

The standard tie rod has a rubber insulator built in.  Nothing wrong with this and it's certainly not a weakness.  The "turbo" tie rod simply replaces this rubber bushing with a ball joint that removes any give or isolation of road shock. 

[Airhead]

20 hours ago, Peter M said:

The standard tie rod has a rubber insulator built in.  Nothing wrong with this and it's certainly not a weakness.  The "turbo" tie rod simply replaces this rubber bushing with a ball joint that removes any give or isolation of road shock. 

So what is a good road car can turn into a bone shaking/teeth rattling wanna be race car? 😀

[sydr]

15 hours ago, Airhead said:

So what is a good road car can turn into a bone shaking/teeth rattling wanna be race car? 😀

Not quite correct.  This is a sensible mod that gives more accurate steering, better steering feel and does not change the ride at all.

[Peter M]

@sydr

I'm pleased you have dropped by as I understand you have a 3.4/3.5 with ITB's and a plenum and have recent experience with 2 different cams.  Can you tell us what the cams are and how they compare, particular with regard to street use please?

[sydr]

14 hours ago, Peter M said:

@sydr

I'm pleased you have dropped by as I understand you have a 3.4/3.5 with ITB's and a plenum and have recent experience with 2 different cams.  Can you tell us what the cams are and how they compare, particular with regard to street use please?

Hi Peter,

I've been watching your posts with interest and and enjoyment and compliment you for the stuff that you tackle yourself and for the detail that you provide.  Sadly, I can't give you the same level of detail. 

You are quite right about the engine in my car, it is something quite special.  As is the story behind it.

I bought my car new, in 1984.  And I still have that same 911.  I'd always wanted a Porsche, had bought two 944's but was never happy with them but was too nervous to buy a 911.  In those days, all one heard was that a 911 was the car to buy if you wished to depart the road going backwards.  I was always an 'enthusiastic driver' and was nervous that I would be in over my depth.  But I lusted after one, until my wife, fed up with me dreaming about it, said to me "Just do it!"  So I did.

I used my car as a daily driver for about 4 or 5 years, and then gradually did more and more track work and I'm sure it has more track/competitive miles than road miles.  When Porsche Cars Australia organised a 4 day competitive event on the Great Ocean Road in which about 180 Porsches competed, I won it outright against modern/new cars even though mine was then about 28 years old.  While these new Porsches had Haltech/Terratrips navigation aids and good gear, I stumped up for a $19.95 electronic egg timer and velcroed it onto the dash.  Velcro strip is there to this day, the egg timer was an el cheapo that failed quite soon after.  Clearly, winning was a tribute to my wife, who was an excellent navigator, and not much to do with my skill as a pilot.  But my 911 was getting very tired.  The motor had never been opened.  That motor never failed, despite the constant pressure that I subjected it to. 

Eventually I decided to give it a big birthday.  Remember, I'd owned the car since new, so was not concerned about cutting any corners.  I did a lot of research and had an all out special motor built, - that motor was 3.4L with all the good fruit.  I found out about Direct to Head throttle bodies, at that time a new development and ordered them from overseas.  I believe that this was probably the first such engine in Oz.  We used the original crank and rods but 3.4 hi comp pistons/barrels, sexy cam, twin spark, motec, the lot.  It pulled like a train but from the get go the oil pressure was lower than my old motor had been prior to the rebuild.  Go figure.  Engine builder said "She's Good!" and I said "No, it is not!"  Sadly after about a year I was proven right.

When the engine let go it was rebuilt with milder cams, GT3 crank and rods (the old ones were ruined when the engine let go) and milder cams.  This new engine is smooth like a turbine, has excellent oil pressure and is now 3.6L.  It is not quite as exciting as the previous engine but is still running like a dream . . . . .

I've looked thru the invoices to try to find out the cam series number for both engines but there's nothing in my files, I'm sorry to disappoint you on that score.  You're welcome to inspect the car if you're in Sydney, or I can contact you if I'm in Armidale with it.

I recently put the car on historic rego and am using it more for road trips.  It is quite something to have owned a car for so long that having bought it new, you can put it on historic rego.  It is a tribute to the 911 that I've never been bored by it.

[Tips]

5 hours ago, sydr said:

I won it outright against modern/new cars even though mine was then about 28 years old. 

a testament to car and driver. Having recently taken the SC to a track day where it was the oldest car by about 30 years it was certainly the biggest bang for buck in enjoyment factor, and the biggest handful with no driver aids or power steering 🤣. These older AC cars are such a pure form of driving, I’m so hooked and now starting to look at more track days in the calendar.

[cafe_racer]

12 hours ago, sydr said:

Hi Peter,

I've been watching your posts with interest and and enjoyment and compliment you for the stuff that you tackle yourself and for the detail that you provide.  Sadly, I can't give you the same level of detail. 

You are quite right about the engine in my car, it is something quite special.  As is the story behind it.

I bought my car new, in 1984.  And I still have that same 911.  I'd always wanted a Porsche, had bought two 944's but was never happy with them but was too nervous to buy a 911.  In those days, all one heard was that a 911 was the car to buy if you wished to depart the road going backwards.  I was always an 'enthusiastic driver' and was nervous that I would be in over my depth.  But I lusted after one, until my wife, fed up with me dreaming about it, said to me "Just do it!"  So I did.

I used my car as a daily driver for about 4 or 5 years, and then gradually did more and more track work and I'm sure it has more track/competitive miles than road miles.  When Porsche Cars Australia organised a 4 day competitive event on the Great Ocean Road in which about 180 Porsches competed, I won it outright against modern/new cars even though mine was then about 28 years old.  While these new Porsches had Haltech/Terratrips navigation aids and good gear, I stumped up for a $19.95 electronic egg timer and velcroed it onto the dash.  Velcro strip is there to this day, the egg timer was an el cheapo that failed quite soon after.  Clearly, winning was a tribute to my wife, who was an excellent navigator, and not much to do with my skill as a pilot.  But my 911 was getting very tired.  The motor had never been opened.  That motor never failed, despite the constant pressure that I subjected it to. 

Eventually I decided to give it a big birthday.  Remember, I'd owned the car since new, so was not concerned about cutting any corners.  I did a lot of research and had an all out special motor built, - that motor was 3.4L with all the good fruit.  I found out about Direct to Head throttle bodies, at that time a new development and ordered them from overseas.  I believe that this was probably the first such engine in Oz.  We used the original crank and rods but 3.4 hi comp pistons/barrels, sexy cam, twin spark, motec, the lot.  It pulled like a train but from the get go the oil pressure was lower than my old motor had been prior to the rebuild.  Go figure.  Engine builder said "She's Good!" and I said "No, it is not!"  Sadly after about a year I was proven right.

When the engine let go it was rebuilt with milder cams, GT3 crank and rods (the old ones were ruined when the engine let go) and milder cams.  This new engine is smooth like a turbine, has excellent oil pressure and is now 3.6L.  It is not quite as exciting as the previous engine but is still running like a dream . . . . .

I've looked thru the invoices to try to find out the cam series number for both engines but there's nothing in my files, I'm sorry to disappoint you on that score.  You're welcome to inspect the car if you're in Sydney, or I can contact you if I'm in Armidale with it.

I recently put the car on historic rego and am using it more for road trips.  It is quite something to have owned a car for so long that having bought it new, you can put it on historic rego.  It is a tribute to the 911 that I've never been bored by it.

Great story and ownership history!  Who did the work on the engine the second time around?  Or did you entrust it to the same fellow throughout the entire two rebuilds?

[sydr]

9 hours ago, cafe_racer said:

Great story and ownership history!  Who did the work on the engine the second time around?  Or did you entrust it to the same fellow throughout the entire two rebuilds?

Second engine build was by Michael Newton Automotive.

 

On 17/08/2019 at 19:08, G5032 said:

Great tips!

agree 1000% on the tires, a set of Potenza 003’s and a proper alignment/corner balance totally transformed my car..

has no idea about the clamp!! Checking ASAP!

 

On 17/08/2019 at 19:08, Airhead said:

Why does everyone say to upgrade the tie rods? Do the standard ones break or it just a thing to do?

On the subject of Turbo tie rods and tires, my car was delivered with 15" wheels.  Changing to 16" also made a noticeable difference in steering response/handling.  Over the years I've added all sorts of  excellent go faster bits to the suspension and brakes but the two things that gave the most bang for buck and were the easiest to do were the tie rods and wheels/tires. 

[LeeM]

@sydr It's a tribute to you for owning a car that long! Nice work mate 👍👏👏👏

 

[sydr]

7 hours ago, LeeM said:

@sydr It's a tribute to you for owning a car that long! Nice work mate 👍👏👏👏

 

Nah mate, not a tribute to me but rather a tribute to a design that is so totally "wrong!" that it always remains interesting and engaging and a challenge to drive competitively.  Always fun, and whenever I slide into the drivers seat, to this day, I get a silly smile.  I did decide to trade it in on a 993, but when I went to Scuderia, cheque book in hand a year before the last 993 was delivered, I was told "Sorry, our entire allocation is sold." 

At the time I had started reading about a totally revolutionary sports car, one of which the motoring journos were saying "Every car manufacturer should buy one of these and force their chassis engineers to drive it every day."

That car was the Series 1 Lotus Elise.

I did the math.  I could buy the Elise, keep the 911, and still be ahead in $$$$ terms.

What would you do?

 

[LeeM]

1 hour ago, sydr said:

 

That car was the Series 1 Lotus Elise.

I did the math.  I could buy the Elise, keep the 911, and still be ahead in $$$$ terms.

What would you do?

 Probably trade in for a GT3 😁 

 I get what you mean though. I still get a buzz every time I fire up the backdate, yet I only drive it once or twice a month now, so it's a nice change from daily driving a Hiace van 😁

[Peter M]

On 20/08/2019 at 09:07, sydr said:

 You are quite right about the engine in my car, it is something quite special.  As is the story behind it.

I bought my car new, in 1984.  And I still have that same 911.   It is a tribute to the 911 that I've never been bored by it.

Sydr,

Great story and thank you for telling it.  I think many of us could take a leaf from your book on the subject of contentment and be so much happier as a result.  Thanks again!

While searching the archives I came across some photos that you may recognise:

 

That engine that planted the seed for me and no doubt others:

[Peter M]

Just tidying up a few things today like the wiring that also gave me the opportunity to show a few more things:

A set of aluminium 964 rocker covers seemed a obvious choice since my 3.2, being reasonably late, came with 964 cam carriers anyway.  However still had to drill out the bolt holes as 3.2's have the meaty 8mm mounting studs as opposed to the 6mm on 964's and 993's.  The Nippon Denso coils are held in place with RSR style holders.

 

 

 

I removed the LHS header to trim the hot air tube at the front and fit new flex tubes.  I bought these BBE's because they have the generic Porsche outlets giving a wide range of muffler choices, had the 1 5/8 inch primaries (SSI's are a bit small at 1 1/2"), are stainless steel and I thought the hot boxes are quite neat compared to some others.  Just remember to ask for O2 sensor bungs to be installed as these particular headers are generally sold for SC's and earlier cars and the bungs aren't standard fitment. 

BBE also sell a 3.2 specific header and muffler set but the mufflers are prone to cracking and you only have the choice of one type and dismissed them for that reason.  However Mike D'Silva has been doing some good work with mufflers and if you don't mind a bit of DYI, these 3.2 specific headers would be worth a look as the outlets are wider, giving a bit more room to play.

I was pleasantly surprised I managed to pick up some outlet flange gaskets that fit perfectly at Supercheap this arvo. 

 

It's not always dirty.  Flashback to late 2017 and the Porsche In Motion display at Newcastle Museum:

 

 

[Peter M]

Other 3.2/3.4 Engine Builds

There were a few engine builds, in additions to Syd's that interested me:

Single plug but ITB's with plastic 964 plenum.  The exhaust is a set of 3.2 specific BBE headers that have been modified to work with a modified 997 muffler.  Full story here:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/952600-rothsport-itb-3-2-new-build.html

 

Sal Carceller sells MAF conversions for 3.2's and always seems to be involved with interesting builds:

He likes DC21 cams for 3.4 builds.  Full story here: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/871561-1985-3-4-build-using-maf-279-56-hp-237-63-rwhp.html

Another using his MAF:

Full story here:  http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/962997-1984-911-3-4-sleeper-hotrod-end.html

 

Interesting discussion on ITB's vs 3.2 Intakes: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/138447-individual-throttle-bodies-vs-flowed-carrera-intake-manifold.html

 

[Mike D'Silva]

Here is my 997 Muffler setup... it's a tad loud!

 

[Peter M]

The important engine bit starts at 1:40 and gets going in earnest at 2:10

3.4 conversion with ITB's and a 8,000rpm redline.  Gotta love RUF!