Jump to content

Recommended Posts

On 02/05/2020 at 15:49, Peter M said:

Air Conditioning

I had the AC regassed at the end of last year but by March it was evident that it was losing pressure and I likely needed to replace a few of the original hoses.  I was also interested in improving the airflow in the cabin and spent some time understanding how the ducting worked on the later 3.2's and replacing seals in the fresh air system to make sure I wasn't having the hot external air mixing with the refrigerated air.

I also tested the airflow directly from the evaporator box and found that impressive but even though the route is reasonably direct in the later 3.2's, I couldn't work out why it should be so much less forceful by the time it got to the driver's side vent.

At the same time I was chasing a refrigerant leak in my XJ6 and at over 200 bucks a regas, I though this was expensive and somewhat environmentally insensitive.  I had noticed the cost of a vacuum pump and gauge set on eBay was about the same cost as a  professional 134a regas.  After a bit of a hunt around for Hychill suppliers, I decided to set myself up as a DIY air conditioning mechanic.

 

1Q9s8vM.jpg   

The XJ, like every old car I've had required a full AC rebuild, including an 6 hour dash out evaporator replacement.  That wasn't too bad as my 993 as it took 10 hours to do the same thing, but from the frunk side!

a0x4rqX.jpg 

Evacuating the system after replacing a hose end fitting that didn't give the clearance to the chassis that I wanted.  Vacuuming the system before recharging with Hychill Minus 30.  I've only replaced a few AC items on the red car so far - receiver/dryer, front condensor, evaporator and blower motor - but I foresee at least upgrading all the old non-barrier hose as my next job.

As an example of my peerless timing I now have the AC working well in both cars.  It's just that the temp expected here today is 12 degrees with an overnight low of -2! 

Love your work - did something similar with an E39 touring - complete dash out, can't remember now but job was 15 or 20 hours all up.   A professional quote was more than the car was worth.  There is something exceedingly satisfying about sitting in a car with cool air coming from the vents from your own handiwork.

We all groan a bit about modern cars but I do find they come apart and go back together pretty well, even if there is a lot of lego pieces.

What vent temps are you getting on the 911?  I'm jealous of your crimping kit - I have a 911 AC re commissioning in my future, but probably will buy a kit with the pre-made hoses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Coastr said:

Love your work - did something similar with an E39 touring - complete dash out, can't remember now but job was 15 or 20 hours all up.   A professional quote was more than the car was worth.  There is something exceedingly satisfying about sitting in a car with cool air coming from the vents from your own handiwork.

We all groan a bit about modern cars but I do find they come apart and go back together pretty well, even if there is a lot of lego pieces.

What vent temps are you getting on the 911?  I'm jealous of your crimping kit - I have a 911 AC re commissioning in my future, but probably will buy a kit with the pre-made hoses.

Thanks Coastr!  I remember your comment from a few years ago about how a E39 is literally built around the A/C evaporator.  I agree resurrecting non- working A/C to provide a chill is something I find quite satisfying and a necessary part in having a drivable car rather than a garage queen.

Modern cars (ie  post 1990 and in the Lean manufacturing era by my definition) are so nice to work on from a electrical point of view, nicely laid out, standardised connectors that are impossible to assemble incorrectly.  A long way from a G Model with their million spade connectors that rely on you not being colour blind.  Not so convinced about the longevity of the screw free, clip together plastic parts when they are a couple decades old though!

I haven't measured the vent temperatures since I've recharged with Hychill Minus 30 but have bought a new thermostat this week as my last drive was unpleasant as I couldn't adjust the temperature high enough and had to manually turn the A/C on and off as it was too cold!  What I have realised is that good A/C, like modern cars, requires lots of air flow volume, relatively low air velocity and vent temperatures not less than about 6 or 7 degrees C.  Not something a G model and earlier 911's are known for!

Consequently most of my thoughts have been around how to increase air volume and have actually bought a anemometer to do some testing and some comparisons with modern cars to better understand what changes I need to do.  I even picked up a 70's Behr under dash vent setup last month just in case!   Yes, good A/C is important to me.

Don't be jealous of my crimper, it was cheap and I broke the jaw return spring after it's first use!  I have used a premade hose kit before in my white gold car but with the exchange rate now, they're not cheap anymore.  However the barrier hose and fittings are still pretty inexpensive at around $22/m and 20 bucks each, generally readily available off eBay and quick to assemble so I thought 'why not?"

The plan is to do some testing, work out what modifications I want to do and then do it as a job lot at once.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A simple AC thermostat change became more complicated when a spade terminal end pulled out of the AC power  harness socket behind the evaporator.  That meant removing the evaporator and a rush regas the day before our drive day today:

QYelVO5.jpg

 

I need not have worried as it was about -1C north of Walcha this morning!

NGN9xFN.jpg

 

 

But a great day nevertheless:

8saZ5zs.jpg

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 27/06/2020 at 21:36, Fishcop said:

Looks like checking out the 928's engine was a harbinger ;)

Last check before it went up in smoke, i wonder how he got on?

8saZ5zs.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting discussion on intake losses in a 964 and dyno comparisons by Colin at Nine Meister:

https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/758620-dyno-runs-stock-airbox-lid-versus-fabspeed-cup-airbox-lid.html

 

NOTE:  For the 3.2'ers, the 964's and 993's run a larger airbox and filter element than the 3.2's.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Peter M said:

Yep Loctite or similar along with the fact aluminium forms an insulating oxidation layer means never assume your earth is good and never use loctite on anything electrical. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except for regular pie runs to Uralla not much happening here.  Most of my mechanicing time having been spent on the XJ6 chasing an elusive electrical fault (tired relay not always  trigger the ecu on cranking) and new oil leak (blocked pcv plus pinched breather hose pressurising the crankcase leading to oil spew out the filler cap once the revs are up.)  I drove it to Toowoomba last month and Orange last weekend so it gets used despite its occasional foibles.  

Recent annual service of the 911 made me realise my external thermostat isn't opening when it should, making checking the oil level a difficult task.   James has supplied a new thermostat insert ready to go in when I work up enough enthusiasm. 

Did the first gearbox oil change after it's rebuild.  Trying to avoid unicorn oil spiral , I used a bit over 3 litres of Nulon 75w-90 GL5.  Shifts nice.  (It's been pretty cold here so I'm not surprised it feels a little like a 915 for the first couple of shifts before becoming slick and joyous!) Steve GT3 recommends the full synthetic Penrite as a suitable alternative for G50's so I might try that next time just out of curiosity.

E3073Ee.jpg

 

With the engine oil,  I have been surprised how long the rings have taken to fully bed in, even  with dyno time and decided to run mineral oil for another year to be sure.   Not that its done many km since the rebuild.  However I think the last run up the Oxley may have finally finished the job.   Similarly avoiding the oil spiral, I used Caltex Delo 400 15w-40 that I bought in a 20 litre drum for $118 from the local depot.  Plenty left for the Ducati and the gardening equipment. 

V0yrn6V.jpg   

    So I could never be accused of being an oil snob....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rasant Products continue to impress.  Whilst not a 3.2, this SC picks up 41 rwhp with a plenumed set of ITB's and no doubt a hand full more ignition advance:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mmmm, all nice looking but "How much, mister?"

RASANT PRODUCTS INTAKE SYSTEM (IS-6) - INDIVIDUAL THROTTLE BODIES 964

 
$5,600.00

 PRODUCT DESCRIPTION

Rasant Products Intake System (IS-6) –

A complete plug-and-play system for the air cooled Porsche 911, which complements the Rasant Engine Management System, delivers enhanced engine performance and improved drivability. Available in 2 or 3 bolt cylinder head configurations. Featuring idle air control and resonant plenum options. This is a complete ITB (individual throttle bodies) kit for your Porsche 911.

What’s included:

  • 42mm inner throttle diameter
  • 964 plenums (raw finish - alternatives available)
  • Intake boots
  • Valve housing
  • T-shape for air filter
  • Hose clamps
  • Air filter
  • 6 individual throttle bodies (raw finish - alternatives available)
  • Throttle position sensor
  • Fuel rails
  • Air injection rails
  • Idle air control valve
  • Vacuum Reservoir
  • Valve solenoid
  • Air check valve
  • Linkage system
  • Intake gaskets
  • Intake plastic spacers

 

Plus

 

STANDARD MOTEC M84 ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM

$5,900.00

 PRODUCT DESCRIPTION

Rasant Products is proud to present our engine management system with a Motec M84 ECU for your Porsche 911 build. It includes both EFI and coil-on-plug ignition. This Motec system includes dual lambda sensors for monitoring air fuel on both banks.  

The Rasant Products Engine Management Kit is truly complete. No need to construct your own wiring harness, purchase additional engine components, or settle for fuel injection alone. Without ignition control you're missing out on precious horsepower!

What's included:

-Motec M84
-Bosch Coil-on-plug Ignition Coils
-Bosch High Impedance Fuel Injectors
-Bosch Spark Plugs
-Complete Fuel Line and Hose End Kit
-Fuel Pressure Regulator
-Complete Engine Wiring Harness
-Bussmann Fuse/Relay Center
-ECU/Fuse Center Bracket
-Cam/Crank Sensors and Bracketry
-GM 1 Bar Manifold Air Pressure (MAP) Sensor
-GM Intake Air Temperature (IAT) Sensor
-100 PSI Stainless Steel Fuel Pressure Sensor
-Dual O2 Sensor Kit 
-Miscellaneous Hardware

 

$11,500USD or about $16K AUD

Also need to add the cost/time of:

Fitting

Dyno tune

 

If you want twin plugs, that's extra.  A proper cam position sensor, that extra.  Knock sensors? Upgrade to a M130 required.  All adds up pretty quick!

Nice products though!

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Mike D'Silva said:

that m84 is a pretty old ecu isn't it?

Introduced in 2010 but still plenty of capacity for what Mike Brewer wants and plenty of tuners seem quite familiar with them.

The Link ECU's seem to be a good and well regarded alternative at a slightly cheaper price.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Mike D'Silva said:

that m84 is a pretty old ecu isn't it?

M84 is a low cost software crippled  derivative of the M800 which was designed around 2000 which itself was based on the earlier M8 (1993). Last real software development for the M800 and its software only derivatives M880 M400,M600 and M84 was around 2008. Yep it’s now old but not quite as old an an M48 (1995). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So is 200 Dynapack hub horsepower that impressive?  It's probably only around 165 - 170 Mainline chassis dyno horsepower.

Does look good though......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks good, you are right though, a lot of work and $ for 200hp. Surely if HP is the goal it’s engine swap time. If you worry about originality just leave it as is. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What would a standard us spec sc have at the hubs to start with?  150?  They were factory 180 at the crank when fresh.  Seems like a good lift though expensive.

On 07/10/2020 at 02:34, Mike D'Silva said:

that m84 is a pretty old ecu isn't it?

Old enough to be ‘...and a motec system exhaust’ 
 

that crafty hector and his spoons 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Coastr said:

Old enough to be ‘...and a motec system exhaust’ 
 

 

Eric Bana “Full Frontal” comedy sketch. Phone ran hot for a weeks, everyone wanted a Motec zorst

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Coastr said:

What would a standard us spec sc have at the hubs to start with?  150?  They were factory 180 at the crank when fresh.  Seems like a good lift though expensive.

They did a dyno run before the modifications.  It gave 160whp on the same dyno that later gave 200 after the bolt on modifications.  So a very reasonable gain of 40hp or about 34 Mainline whp so nothing to be scoffed at on these engines where every extra hp is not easy or cheap.

20 hours ago, cafe_racer said:

Surely if HP is the goal it’s engine swap time.  

That's not an easy or cheap route to more hp either! Unless you're thinking an LS

Frankly a turbo is probably the only sensible option or better still trade in for something more modern.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike asked "Where did you put the hole in the cabin to run the ancillary harness to your ECU?"

To the inside of the existing harness penetration so that the cable can be easily hidden under the carpet.

WgvUNOh.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 07/10/2020 at 20:20, Peter M said:

Mmmm, all nice looking but "How much, mister?"

RASANT PRODUCTS INTAKE SYSTEM (IS-6) - INDIVIDUAL THROTTLE BODIES 964

 
$5,600.00

 PRODUCT DESCRIPTION

Rasant Products Intake System (IS-6) –

A complete plug-and-play system for the air cooled Porsche 911, which complements the Rasant Engine Management System, delivers enhanced engine performance and improved drivability. Available in 2 or 3 bolt cylinder head configurations. Featuring idle air control and resonant plenum options. This is a complete ITB (individual throttle bodies) kit for your Porsche 911.

What’s included:

  • 42mm inner throttle diameter
  • 964 plenums (raw finish - alternatives available)
  • Intake boots
  • Valve housing
  • T-shape for air filter
  • Hose clamps
  • Air filter
  • 6 individual throttle bodies (raw finish - alternatives available)
  • Throttle position sensor
  • Fuel rails
  • Air injection rails
  • Idle air control valve
  • Vacuum Reservoir
  • Valve solenoid
  • Air check valve
  • Linkage system
  • Intake gaskets
  • Intake plastic spacers

 

Plus

 

STANDARD MOTEC M84 ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM

$5,900.00

 PRODUCT DESCRIPTION

Rasant Products is proud to present our engine management system with a Motec M84 ECU for your Porsche 911 build. It includes both EFI and coil-on-plug ignition. This Motec system includes dual lambda sensors for monitoring air fuel on both banks.  

The Rasant Products Engine Management Kit is truly complete. No need to construct your own wiring harness, purchase additional engine components, or settle for fuel injection alone. Without ignition control you're missing out on precious horsepower!

What's included:

-Motec M84
-Bosch Coil-on-plug Ignition Coils
-Bosch High Impedance Fuel Injectors
-Bosch Spark Plugs
-Complete Fuel Line and Hose End Kit
-Fuel Pressure Regulator
-Complete Engine Wiring Harness
-Bussmann Fuse/Relay Center
-ECU/Fuse Center Bracket
-Cam/Crank Sensors and Bracketry
-GM 1 Bar Manifold Air Pressure (MAP) Sensor
-GM Intake Air Temperature (IAT) Sensor
-100 PSI Stainless Steel Fuel Pressure Sensor
-Dual O2 Sensor Kit 
-Miscellaneous Hardware

 

$11,500USD or about $16K AUD

Also need to add the cost/time of:

Fitting

Dyno tune

 

If you want twin plugs, that's extra.  A proper cam position sensor, that extra.  Knock sensors? Upgrade to a M130 required.  All adds up pretty quick!

Nice products though!

 

 

 

 

I had motec m130 installed and tuned in Melbourne for less than 10k on a 964 engine in a 3.2. Only parts that weren’t included were the TPS, injectors and air flow meter delete. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

PFA [Porsche Forum Australia]

This is an online platform for like-minded Porsche fans/fanatics/tragics to come together to read, chat and share.

It is also a platform to arrange and participate in off-line social meet-ups, events and drives.

×
×
  • Create New...