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Michael P

Xmas Buying Advice

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Happy Xmas all

After 6 months of research I’m about to take the plunge and buy my first 911. I am torn between two cars and wanted the forum’s point of view.

Car 1: 2004 996 Turbo

Car 2: 2009 997.2 C4S

Both are convertible, about 50kms on the clock, both in very good condition, full Porsche history and near enough $100k.

I’ll do 5kms a year, basically taking out when I can on weekends. I am looking for the best possible driver experience, at the same time thinking about value retention if/when the kids outgrow the back seats in 5+ years time.

Please share your view and rationale. Thanks in advance!

Mike

 

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For the best driving experience I'd think you'd want a manual and coupe in both options.   The PDK in the 997.2 is much better than the tiptronic if you don't want three pedals. 

Ultimately it really depends on what you are after, my advice is drive both and get which one you want.  It's your opinion and view point that matters

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Thanks Hugh & Skidmarks

I guess I was expecting a bit more push back on the 996, even though it’s the Turbo. 
 

Are you coming at this based on engine + gearbox = drivability, and putting aside other factors such as styling, reliability, resale?

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One is the flagship model, the other is a C4S with pdk?

 

You are the only one that can answer what you want, though I concur that 6mt Mezger turbo >C4S because 6mt turbo 

 

The 996TT will be more reliable than a base 997 C4S

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12 hours ago, Michael P said:

Thanks Hugh & Skidmarks

I guess I was expecting a bit more push back on the 996, even though it’s the Turbo. 
 

Are you coming at this based on engine + gearbox = drivability, and putting aside other factors such as styling, reliability, resale?

The 996 Turbo wins in all accounts, Mezger engine, brutal performance, very under appreciated car. Get one while they are still a bargain. 

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Convertibles don't hold their value compared to coupe's. New the most expensive option is always the auto, convertible, and the manual coupe is the cheapest. On the second hand market a few years later it is all up the other way, where (at least in the Porsche world) the manual coupe is the most valuable, and if you can get the unicorn without a sunroof even better. 

A 996 turbo manual will be much better at holding it's value as it is basically at the bottom of it's depreciation curve. 997 cab will just keep dropping for quite some time yet.

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I own a 996 TT Tiptronic. First up do you want an auto / PDK or a manual? That is the most fundamental question you need to answer. Beyond that I see a manual cabrio 996 TT as falling between posts. IMHO the 996 TT is a brilliant GT car that can play sports car and its most natural gearbox choice is the Tiptronic which is a nice auto gearbox but can’t match the dual nature of the PDK (but is a better auto IMHO). A cab is floppier and you’d only buy one as a fast cruiser (not really a proper sports car) so the auto box is a more natural choice. And a cab is hardly the embodiment of the classic 996TT, so I’d decide on what suits your needs better today. My guess is Neither will perform that different financially over the likely ownership period. So make yourself happy and pick the car you want, not the one the Internet says you should have.

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On 25/12/2019 at 09:36, Michael P said:

Happy Xmas all

After 6 months of research I’m about to take the plunge and buy my first 911. I am torn between two cars and wanted the forum’s point of view.

Car 1: 2004 996 Turbo

Car 2: 2009 997.2 C4S

Both are convertible, about 50kms on the clock, both in very good condition, full Porsche history and near enough $100k.

I’ll do 5kms a year, basically taking out when I can on weekends. I am looking for the best possible driver experience, at the same time thinking about value retention if/when the kids outgrow the back seats in 5+ years time.

Please share your view and rationale. Thanks in advance!

Mike

 

What's you view on what constitutes the best driving experience?  Not many go there, but in my view the 996 turbo is one of the best P car models that responds to tweaking.  Rationale wise, the surprisingly  heavy  for its size stock exhaust handcuffs a 996 turbo performance wise in terms of mezger engine note and pitch  and it  strangles the stock   k16 turbos to make them  laggy. Also 0.7 bar of boost isn't exactly pushing the limits of k16 turbo's or the mezger motor.  Spend circa $6.5k on selecting the right exhaust setup ( kline or europipe) with 100 cell hjs cats along with a custom tune( one of three US specialist tuners), 964 RS engine mount and 997 tranny mounts  and  replace the 996  shifter mechanism(manual 😁 )with any 997 variant ( stock, short shifter, gt3) and plenty of upside driving experience in most gears across the rev range ( a lot more area under tq/hp dyno curve and huge difference in throttle response) with a 3rd gear pull at WOT being the smile on your dial gear shift. 

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Turbo time!

c4s probably a nicer car to sit in and be seen in.  
 

you need to figure out what’s more important to you.  Don’t accept the internet’s advice - it is worth exactly what you paid for said advice.

its ok to get the better looking car if looks / pose value are more important than outright performance.  Only 1% of the people you drive past will recognise a turbo as a turbo. 
 

I drove a 997 c4s recently and loved it.

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Turbo, stage 1 tune, exhaust= 500 reliable hp

Kw v3 with aggressive alignment=handling

Brake upgrade=stopping power

Appreciating in value=great resale

Then you have all the elements of a great super car that you can daily drive and track. 

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44 minutes ago, GT3LOUI said:

Turbo, stage 1 tune, exhaust= 500 reliable hp

Kw v3 with aggressive alignment=handling

Brake upgrade=stopping power

Appreciating in value=great resale

Then you have all the elements of a great super car that you can daily drive and track. 

They are already too fast for road use and I'd suggest a relatively poor choice for the track.  I'm not sure any of those mods are required unless you've already explored the performance envelope of a standard car which is a already lot for a road car.  You'll also devalue the car whilst spending money on mods that frankly suit a cab not at all (I love a good mod but I've not touched my 996TT) and 996 TTs have been circa $100k for the last 10 years.  There might be an argument that it's currently undervalued but I can't see the upside of this being substantial if any as that comment has been thrown around for a few years now.  Let's just say it will hold it's value.

Main question hasn't been answered by the OP which is auto or manual?  Still the most fundamental question to be answered.

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Credit to the forum and it’s members that a newbie like me gets a load of helpful views on a “buy this vs this” type question. Thank you.

In response to some questions to date:

Mods - I like the optionality of mods offered by the 996, and whilst I tend to prefer “original” I can see the potential for a performance enhancing tune at some point.

Transmission - I was very impressed with the PDK, and if this was a daily driver I would be forced to select the 997. But its a car for the experience, not for commuting, so a manual is better suited IMHO for weekend fun.

But please tell me this - why am I not getting a barrage of anti 996 talk of headlights, the Boxster etc etc? Is the 997 not the return to form and the “last true 911” etc etc? I am getting the impression that this has all been overplayed and when you get to true 911 enthusiasts...it’s about the car and nothing more?

BTW I am 95% sold on the Turbo and will make a final decision overnight.

thanks again all!

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^ the fact that the cheapest 997 turbo coupe is $60k more expensive than an average 996 turbo tells you everything you need to know!

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3 hours ago, Michael P said:

But please tell me this - why am I not getting a barrage of anti 996 talk of headlights, the Boxster etc etc? Is the 997 not the return to form and the “last true 911” etc etc? I am getting the impression that this has all been overplayed and when you get to true 911 enthusiasts...it’s about the car and nothing more?

997 is a great looking 911 but the 996 is coming of age. The 964 suffered a similar fate when compared to the 993. I hated the ‘bug eye’ WRX when it first came out but now it’s my favourite. 
Nothing wrong with a Boxster either. Google GT1 and tell me if that’s a face you couldn’t love. 

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I may be biased because I just bought a 996, but I have really come around to the headlights. I was weighing up getting a 997, but for almost double the money for a similar driving experience, it mainly came down to wether I wanted to be seen driving the newer looking car. I think on the outside 90% of people will think a 997 is a brand new 911, where the 996 does give away more of it's age with the headlights. That said when I have mentioned to several people now that my 911 is over 20 years old they are shocked. 

The biggest compromise for me is the interior as I think the 997 is a big step up from the 996 in my opinion. More so in cars like mine with the lighter coloured interiors, where the black with the leather upgrades on the 996 turbos is much nicer. 

Ultimately I think if you want a cab, then you may as well go for the newer car, as I see them more as a cruiser that you want to be seen in. If you want to drive, then get a coupe turbo and you will be good. 

Also I know you can easily mod the 911 turbo's and make them insanely fast. I have some mates with them and the speed is insane. I personally think, too fast to really enjoy as a road car. If you like to point and shoot, they are great but on a windy road, for me moderate power is much more fun ;) 

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3 minutes ago, Troubleshooter said:

For your needs - 996TT man all day long..... Headlights, Boxsters, blah blah, soooo old thought

Did you notice the headlight shape  much in your 996TT's / boxster when behind the wheel (put aside function over form and they turned on when needed) or if you reversed the cars in your garage so your first sight was the rear  end( better view IMHO than the frunk)? Not quite as good as the rear end in the pic below I sighted in the flesh yesterday, but a 996TT definitely has shades of it for a fraction of the cost.

20191229_081208.jpg

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As stated above I have a 996 TT but also a 996 GT3. They are both the first version of the GT cars and in my opinion better off for it compared to the 997 variants which IMHO is the start of the mass sales of these types of vehicles. If honest I don’t love the fried eggs but the rear end on the 996 GT cars is to die for. Best Porsche rear end out there. So at such a huge discount to the 997 I personally know where the value lays. Also the 997 TT leaves me dead. Totally boring car to look at. The worst wheels on a Porsche ever. Literally. They would look good on a lowered VL...

But search your soul as if you plump for a 996 and really don’t like those headlights, you’ll regret it. It’s OK either way but get it straight in your head.

Also don’t get the cab get a coupe IMHO.

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Big thanks to all the comments.

i just put down a deposit on the 996!

Great looking car from all angles, performance puts a smile on my face. Sure the coupe may be a better drive, but the option to drop the roof is a strong pull for many reasons (none of which include posing), so I am well chuffed.

Will post pics when I get my hands on her, and follow up with loads of other questions about insurance, servicing, maintenance, etc etc 😉

Cheers All!!!

 

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48 minutes ago, Michael P said:

Big thanks to all the comments.

i just put down a deposit on the 996!

Great looking car from all angles, performance puts a smile on my face. Sure the coupe may be a better drive, but the option to drop the roof is a strong pull for many reasons (none of which include posing), so I am well chuffed.

Will post pics when I get my hands on her, and follow up with loads of other questions about insurance, servicing, maintenance, etc etc 😉

Cheers All!!!

 

Rad. Well done. Sounds like you got what you wanted 👍

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53 minutes ago, Michael P said:

Big thanks to all the comments.

i just put down a deposit on the 996!

Great looking car from all angles, performance puts a smile on my face. Sure the coupe may be a better drive, but the option to drop the roof is a strong pull for many reasons (none of which include posing), so I am well chuffed.

Will post pics when I get my hands on her, and follow up with loads of other questions about insurance, servicing, maintenance, etc etc 😉

Cheers All!!!

 

Congratulations.  As you have probably found out, lots of smiles when see over 0.5 on the boost gauge.

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