The forgotten RS

[Skidmarks]

First - I’m no Karl Ludvigsen so this post is just my take (and there will no doubt be errors and omissions) on something thats been on my mind for a while now - about an hour actually - which according to my wife is a solid amount of time for me to spend on thinking about anything other than work ...

So here goes. 

The 911 RS.   A deservedly revered icon.  

This discussion is confined to road going versions not the special derivatives that followed - particularly in the 70’s.

The RS appears in 1973 as a car to homologate a race car.  Comes in 2 production car flavours - Lightweight and Touring.  And a third variant purely for racing.  Limited numbers built although many more could have been sold.  Its a theme that holds until 2016 ...

We have a brief taste of what might have been in the Carrera 3.2 Clubsport.  Loads of nice changes, some shedding of weight, modest power hike although the factory downplayed it.  For some reason best known to Porsche (perhaps engineering said it didn’t go far enough to be called and RS) it got the CS tag.  In my view could be seen as an RS but as it doesn’t fit my “criteria” as it did not generate or foreshadow a race car derivative so its out.  Those who own one, load your weapons and take aim.  I’ll stand still as I probably deserve to get shot ...

964 RS (I don’t count the RS America as it was in my humble view a market specific branding exercise).  Again, 2 flavours and racing/homologation derivatives.

993 RS - once again, comes in heavy and light and spawns race derivatives.  A magnificent car just like the 964 before it.

A hiatus until 2004 we’re presented with the next 911 to bear the RS tag.  Same recipe.  Take the road 911 and give it a nip and tuck, use it to homologate some tasty things so Porsche could make a better mousetrap for the racing fraternity in Carrera Cup and the GT racing categories.  

Here’s where the premise of my argument comes a bit unstuck but bear with me.  

996.2 RS.  We get a “cooking” GT3 which presents us with the CS and Touring variants (again).  So this time, Porsche adds the “race” version to the lineup and makes what it needs In very limited numbers (the accountants hadn’t joined the discussion at that point and it would take another 12 years before their voice was the loudest in the room and Porsche built as many RS’s at it could sell).  And you could put a number plate on it and drive it on the road.  Shameless nod to the ‘73 with its white body red/blue wheels and stripes.  As it should.

2007 and Porsche does it again.  Same format as the 996.2.  GT3 Touring, CS and RS.  Not much weight saved over the CS but around 50 kg’s reduction wasn’t the point.  It needed a variant to that it could point the FIA at in relation to a few bits for the Cup Car.  Low numbers built, more to it than meets the eye and Porsche puts on the nostalgia goggles once again but this time plays the candy color card as well as the referencing the ‘73.  And still the engineers and marketing teams hold sway and they don’t build a lot.

2010 - the swan song for the 997.  Things are getting predictable I grant you but hey, when you’re onto a good thing ... This time the big change is that displacement goes up to 3.8.   It will be the last RS that will ever have a manual gearbox.  This time Porsche lets it hair down again and basically gives the world a Cup Car for the road.  Indeed, many use the road version as a base for some very strong race cars.  Much the same as people have been doing with Porsches since the first lot came out of Gmund I suppose.  I digress ... (see what I said about attention span).  We still got a CS and Touring as part of the lineup.  Porsche says bye bye to the 997 and makes  “a thanks for the memory” tribute and gives us a taste of displacement in the next generation with the 4.0 RS.  Makes around 600 and thats all she wrote folks.

Fast forward and your local Sales Executive rings breathlessly and says “Have I got a deal for you.  The RS is back.  Send money to secure your deposit to this exclusive model”.  This time, the accountants win the volume argument but whispered “don’t tell anyone”.  Another topic for another thread ...

So, to my point.  There is a car that could have been called an RS but wasn’t.  All of the sales material that was sent out bore it was released made direct, clear and very deliberate reference to and comparison with the 993RS.  They printed a now very hard to get booklet extolling  the virtues and superiority of the new version.  Full of data tables, engineering feedback - a hamburger with the lot aimed squarely at those looking for the modern RS experience.  Porsche produced a slick video and sent its target demographic a teaser pack with a DVD and other goodies.  They got some unknown called Rohrl to spank it around a race track for the vid.  They were not planning to make many and didn’t.  Like all the previous RS’s, they could have sold many more.  It had a naturally aspirated engine.  Manual gearbox.  Was harsh on the road.  Had big brakes.  You could get it with a roll cage. 

I give you the 996.1 GT3.  I know, many of you were onto me earlier  ...

It fits the bill in all respects.  Low volume, stripped out.  Comes in 2 versions.  Was the homologation platform for the new Cup Car and GT racing variants. Used as its base an engine that got bolted into the GT1 and at its core was carried over from the 964 and 993RS’s save that (horror of horrors) it was water cooled instead of oil cooled.  

Why not RS?  Marketing I suppose.  

So, my proposition - a 996.1 GT3 is in fact an RS.

 

 

[Disclaimer - I may have owned and may currently own examples of the cars discussed above so I’m not pump priming the market - as if thats possible right now anyway! What I have I will hold on to (and drive).  For myself, my wife (she’s a big supporter of my affliction) and my kids, and their kids I hope.]

[DJM]

Assume that means a “real” 996 RS is not worth $290k, double a 996.1 CS?

[Skidmarks]

14 minutes ago, DJM said:

Assume that means a “real” 996 RS is not worth $290k, double a 996.1 CS?

They only made 600 or so 996.2 RS’s ...

But objectively, perhaps not.

I actually think the 996.1 is undervalued. 

The post was triggered by me looking at the 996.2 RS’s on the market and it got me thinking ...

 

[spiller]

It’s hard not to see them being worth big big bucks in the next decade. I’ll show my wife this thread, thanks @Skidmarks

[Rick V]

53 minutes ago, Skidmarks said:

I actually think the 996.1 is undervalued.

Agreed - Absolutely no doubt in my mind that these first GT3’s are primed for a run up in value, once the world fixes itself again.

 

 

[hugh]

Very timely post @Skidmarks 

[DJM]

^selling?

[356993???]

1 hour ago, Skidmarks said:

First - I’m no Karl Ludvigsen so this post is just my take (and there will no doubt be errors and omissions) on something thats been on my mind for a while now - about an hour actually - which according to my wife is a solid amount of time for me to spend on thinking about anything other than work ...

So here goes. 

The 911 RS.   A deservedly revered icon.  

This discussion is confined to road going versions not the special derivatives that followed - particularly in the 70’s.

The RS appears in 1973 as a car to homologate a race car.  Comes in 2 production car flavours - Lightweight and Touring.  And a third variant purely for racing.  Limited numbers built although many more could have been sold.  Its a theme that holds until 2016 ...

We have a brief taste of what might have been in the Carrera 3.2 Clubsport.  Loads of nice changes, some shedding of weight, modest power hike although the factory downplayed it.  For some reason best known to Porsche (perhaps engineering said it didn’t go far enough to be called and RS) it got the CS tag.  In my view could be seen as an RS but as it doesn’t fit my “criteria” as it did not generate or foreshadow a race car derivative so its out.  Those who own one, load your weapons and take aim.  I’ll stand still as I probably deserve to get shot ...

964 RS (I don’t count the RS America as it was in my humble view a market specific branding exercise).  Again, 2 flavours and racing/homologation derivatives.

993 RS - once again, comes in heavy and light and spawns race derivatives.  A magnificent car just like the 964 before it.

A hiatus until 2004 we’re presented with the next 911 to bear the RS tag.  Same recipe.  Take the road 911 and give it a nip and tuck, use it to homologate some tasty things so Porsche could make a better mousetrap for the racing fraternity in Carrera Cup and the GT racing categories.  

Here’s where the premise of my argument comes a bit unstuck but bear with me.  

996.2 RS.  We get a “cooking” GT3 which presents us with the CS and Touring variants (again).  So this time, Porsche adds the “race” version to the lineup and makes what it needs In very limited numbers (the accountants hadn’t joined the discussion at that point and it would take another 12 years before their voice was the loudest in the room and Porsche built as many RS’s at it could sell).  And you could put a number plate on it and drive it on the road.  Shameless nod to the ‘73 with its white body red/blue wheels and stripes.  As it should.

2007 and Porsche does it again.  Same format as the 996.2.  GT3 Touring, CS and RS.  Not much weight saved over the CS but around 50 kg’s reduction wasn’t the point.  It needed a variant to that it could point the FIA at in relation to a few bits for the Cup Car.  Low numbers built, more to it than meets the eye and Porsche puts on the nostalgia goggles once again but this time plays the candy color card as well as the referencing the ‘73.  And still the engineers and marketing teams hold sway and they don’t build a lot.

2010 - the swan song for the 997.  Things are getting predictable I grant you but hey, when you’re onto a good thing ... This time the big change is that displacement goes up to 3.8.   It will be the last RS that will ever have a manual gearbox.  This time Porsche lets it hair down again and basically gives the world a Cup Car for the road.  Indeed, many use the road version as a base for some very strong race cars.  Much the same as people have been doing with Porsches since the first lot came out of Gmund I suppose.  I digress ... (see what I said about attention span).  We still got a CS and Touring as part of the lineup.  Porsche says bye bye to the 997 and makes  “a thanks for the memory” tribute and gives us a taste of displacement in the next generation with the 4.0 RS.  Makes around 600 and thats all she wrote folks.

Fast forward and your local Sales Executive rings breathlessly and says “Have I got a deal for you.  The RS is back.  Send money to secure your deposit to this exclusive model”.  This time, the accountants win the volume argument but whispered “don’t tell anyone”.  Another topic for another thread ...

So, to my point.  There is a car that could have been called an RS but wasn’t.  All of the sales material that was sent out bore it was released made direct, clear and very deliberate reference to and comparison with the 993RS.  They printed a now very hard to get booklet extolling  the virtues and superiority of the new version.  Full of data tables, engineering feedback - a hamburger with the lot aimed squarely at those looking for the modern RS experience.  Porsche produced a slick video and sent its target demographic a teaser pack with a DVD and other goodies.  They got some unknown called Rohrl to spank it around a race track for the vid.  They were not planning to make many and didn’t.  Like all the previous RS’s, they could have sold many more.  It had a naturally aspirated engine.  Manual gearbox.  Was harsh on the road.  Had big brakes.  You could get it with a roll cage. 

I give you the 996.1 GT3.  I know, many of you were onto me earlier  ...

It fits the bill in all respects.  Low volume, stripped out.  Comes in 2 versions.  Was the homologation platform for the new Cup Car and GT racing variants. Used as its base an engine that got bolted into the GT1 and at its core was carried over from the 964 and 993RS’s save that (horror of horrors) it was water cooled instead of oil cooled.  

Why not RS?  Marketing I suppose.  

So, my proposition - a 996.1 GT3 is in fact an RS.

 

 

[Disclaimer - I may have owned and may currently own examples of the cars discussed above so I’m not pump priming the market - as if thats possible right now anyway! What I have I will hold on to (and drive).  For myself, my wife (she’s a big supporter of my affliction) and my kids, and their kids I hope.]

Nice. I’d only let go of a 996.1 Clubsport to get a 997.2 RS. 

[luzzo]

5 hours ago, Skidmarks said:

So, my proposition - a 996.1 GT3 is in fact an RS.

 

I enjoyed reading that @Skidmarks, Thanks! 

I love the theory, and have always wondered why the RS only returned in the 996.2. 

Given my knowledge (and lack of first hand experience) on these iconic cars is far less than Skids and some other PFA members, based on the above theory could you please explain how different the 996.1 GT3 vs the 996.2 GT3 really are? 

Over the years I have read numerous comparisons on the 2: reviews, articles, road tests and the like, including opinions on PFA, and it generally seemed to me that most would describe the 996.2GT3 as an overall evolutionary improvement on the 996.1GT3. I have read: Better suspension, Better brakes, basically same engine with slightly more power & torque, revised bodywork. 

I have always loved the look and improvements of the 996.2GT3, so given the choice I would have bought a 996.2GT3 instead of 996.1GT3. Your above theory makes me want to rethink this. 

 

[Jason A]

@Skidmarks thanks for penning such a nice snap shot and overview of the early GT3 and RS evolution. Before as you say greed overtook passion.

I have always had a soft spot for the MK1 GT3, the first of a new era and a ground breaking car.

996 GT3 RS they made 682 road going cars.

I have a magazine article from the cars launch, journalists picked you in a bus and out on the autobahn to head out to the track for the launch. The factory arranged for the bus to be in the centre lane and had 2 GT3’s go past the bus at full noise and close to top speed while the bus was doing 100kl/hr. It was the first time they got to see the car. What an introduction, they were all pretty hyped.

These cars have been under appreciated for a long time, like the 964 RS - the world will wake up one day.

(disclaimer I have also been lucky enough to procure a couple)

[spiller]

2 hours ago, luzzo said:

I enjoyed reading that @Skidmarks, Thanks! 

I love the theory, and have always wondered why the RS only returned in the 996.2. 

Given my knowledge (and lack of first hand experience) on these iconic cars is far less than Skids and some other PFA members, based on the above theory could you please explain how different the 996.1 GT3 vs the 996.2 GT3 really are? 

Over the years I have read numerous comparisons on the 2: reviews, articles, road tests and the like, including opinions on PFA, and it generally seemed to me that most would describe the 996.2GT3 as an overall evolutionary improvement on the 996.1GT3. I have read: Better suspension, Better brakes, basically same engine with slightly more power & torque, revised bodywork. 

I have always loved the look and improvements of the 996.2GT3, so given the choice I would have bought a 996.2GT3 instead of 996.1GT3. Your above theory makes me want to rethink this. 

 

There are a number of mechanical and aesthetic differences that perhaps has the 6.2 as the better GT3, but from my understanding it’s not as night and day as say 7.1 to 7.2 or 991.1 to 991.2. Bigger brakes, stronger synchros, gearbox oil cooler, more power, revised aero are the main ones. I think this thread is more to do with the rarity of the 996.1 and it being the first of the modern lineage than its mechanical/styling superiority/inferiority compared to 996.2. My advice is if you want the best 996 GT3 get the 6.2. If you’re not doing regular track work all of those upgrades are somewhat irrelevant and so then the “specialness” of the 6.1 comes strongly into play. Just my 2c (full disclosure, I have not driven a 6.1!)

[Skidmarks]

7 minutes ago, spiller said:

There are a number of mechanical and aesthetic differences that perhaps has the 6.2 as the better GT3, but from my understanding it’s not as night and day as say 7.1 to 7.2 or 991.1 to 991.2. Bigger brakes, stronger synchros, gearbox oil cooler, more power, revised aero are the main ones. I think this thread is more to do with the rarity of the 996.1 and it being the first of the modern lineage than its mechanical/styling superiority/inferiority compared to 996.2. My advice is if you want the best 996 GT3 get the 6.2. If you’re not doing regular track work all of those upgrades are somewhat irrelevant and so then the “specialness” of the 6.1 comes strongly into play. Just my 2c (full disclosure, I have not driven a 6.1!)

What he said.  GT3 996.2 is “better”. I’ve been lucky enough to have both in the shed at one stage.   The .2 is “smoother”.  And to be honest, not that far off the RS version in many respects.  I’ve still got the 6.1 Touring and it’s one I’d never sell (unless it was a 6.2 RS perhaps).   That it’s yellow like the  one in the launch video may have something to do with it ...

[RwGreeny]

I think the argument of the 6.2 being faster, more powerful, more capable is null and void now. They are both old cars now, thinking about there ability for outright speed and potential for lap times is missing the point. A base model 992 will show a clean pair of heels to any 996 gt3 with us amateur drivers behind the wheel. But if you factor in the experience and the way a car makes you feel. Well I think we all know which set of keys we would reach for........

10 minutes ago, RwGreeny said:

[sleazius]

49 minutes ago, Skidmarks said:

That it’s yellow like the  one in the launch video may have something to do with it ...

As sky fairy intended

[tdc911]

My belief is for the 996 GT3 Mk1 to wear the RS moniker, it needed to weigh less than the 996.1 Carrera 2. The 996 GT3 RS weighed less than the then current GT3 (996 GT3 Mk2) hence is entitled to be labelled as such.

[DJM]

Interesting - consensus is the .2 is the better car, certainly looks better to my eye (headlights, wheels, wing).  Yet the .1 is becoming the collectible one.  

Where did the brains trust land on the .1 being “last of the Weissach built cars”, I’d read a few things that suggested they all came from the same place.  The Weissach connection (being a “genuine Motorsport” built car) I thought was the big draw card that was driving values.  

I’ll never be a collector so I’ll always buy the “best” car for the money I’m looking to spend which I appreciate is a very different motivation from those hankering for a .1.

[spiller]

Don’t mean to take away from the original concept of this thread, but while we are talking 6.1 v 6.2, Chris Harris wrote an interesting piece on this very topic a number of years ago...

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-features/tell-me-im-wrong-porsche-911-996-gt3/26071

[TwoHeadsTas]

1 hour ago, spiller said:

There are a number of mechanical and aesthetic differences that perhaps has the 6.2 as the better GT3, but from my understanding it’s not as night and day as say 7.1 to 7.2 or 991.1 to 991.2. Bigger brakes, stronger synchros, gearbox oil cooler, more power, revised aero are the main ones. I think this thread is more to do with the rarity of the 996.1 and it being the first of the modern lineage than its mechanical/styling superiority/inferiority compared to 996.2. My advice is if you want the best 996 GT3 get the 6.2. If you’re not doing regular track work all of those upgrades are somewhat irrelevant and so then the “specialness” of the 6.1 comes strongly into play. Just my 2c (full disclosure, I have not driven a 6.1!)

6.1 with 6.2 6 spot front brakes is, I think, a perfect compromise.....

Disclosure - am extremely happy with my 6.1 purchase a few months ago, just can't wait to exercise it properly again when we can go out to play 🙂

[Jason A]

2 hours ago, tdc911 said:

My belief is for the 996 GT3 Mk1 to wear the RS moniker, it needed to weigh less than the 996.1 Carrera 2. The 996 GT3 RS weighed less than the then current GT3 (996 GT3 Mk2) hence is entitled to be labelled as such.

It’s difficult to weigh less, this is the start of a significant difference between the base 911 and the GT cars.

completely different drive train in both cars, different shell 4S shell, then add cage etc - tough ask.

Porsche is not known for making a car heavier than it needs to be. It still ended up being significantly faster overall- that’s the important thing.

Just my 2 cents worth 

[DJM]

Surprised that a 996 GT3 is heavier than and no faster than a 981 Cayman GTS

 

[spiller]

6 minutes ago, DJM said:

Surprised that a 996 GT3 is heavier than and no faster than a 981 Cayman GTS

 

Rigged video IMO. Put those on a proper track and the Cayman would have been left for dead. 

[RwGreeny]

21 minutes ago, Jason A said:

It’s difficult to weigh less, this is the start of a significant difference between the base 911 and the GT cars.

completely different drive train in both cars, different shell 4S shell, then add cage etc - tough ask.

Porsche is not known for making a car heavier than it needs to be. It still ended up being significantly faster overall- that’s the important thing.

Just my 2 cents worth 

You’re spot on. The Carrera 4 shell with all the extra bracing is a lot heavier than most people realise and also the metzger with attached dry sump that was coupled with the 993 GT2 derived gearbox was I think around 35ish kg heavier than the standard Carrera lump

[tdc911]

23 minutes ago, Jason A said:

It’s difficult to weigh less, this is the start of a significant difference between the base 911 and the GT cars.

completely different drive train in both cars, different shell 4S shell, then add cage etc - tough ask.

Porsche is not known for making a car heavier than it needs to be. It still ended up being significantly faster overall- that’s the important thing.

Just my 2 cents worth 

I am not saying the GT3 isn't a special car nor a big step up from the base Carrera model. What I am saying is the RS badge has always been used on models that had more power AND weighed less than their equivalent non-RS sibling.

[RwGreeny]

2 hours ago, tdc911 said:

My belief is for the 996 GT3 Mk1 to wear the RS moniker, it needed to weigh less than the 996.1 Carrera 2. The 996 GT3 RS weighed less than the then current GT3 (996 GT3 Mk2) hence is entitled to be labelled as such.

The .2 GT3 RS did not weigh less than the .2 Carrera

I think what Skids was initially trying to elude to in his great write up was that maybe At the time Porsche was trying to introduce a different naming strategy considering that the original GT3 was a direct replacement for the 993RS. Meaning that the 996.1 missed out on those two seemingly very important letters. Perhaps due to the board trying to create a new ‘legend’ with the introduction of the water cooled era

[edgy]

I know @Skidmarks mentioned leaving the race cars out of the equation... but they did in fact make a 996.1 RS, Motorsport car only sits in with GT3-R & RSR... makes you wonder why they didn’t take that and apply it to a road car... could it have been that their biggest export market (North America) could not get the car through all the red tape? Im not sure, since they never got 996.2 RS either... but I agree? They are very undervalued and mark my word, they will have their moment in the next 10 years...