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1st Porsche - independent dealer, PPI, out of state


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PFA Team

I've been dreaming of a 911 since I was a kid .... but only in the last couple of years gotten into a position to be able to make it happen. Have test driven a few and pretty settled on the 991 S for my use case - drive to work 2/3 days a week, use as a second car on weekend with 1-2 passengers that are still small enough to fit in the back if needed (though my window there is shrinking so it is a now or never proposition!) and the odd weekend away with wife. I also have full board approval for 1 track day per year provided I get some instruction! I got serious in the second half of last year and test drove a few (from 997.2 to 991.2) in my home city  but couldn't quite find the right one. Whilst I know it may be sacrilege on this forum (or the world generally) to try and make a 'sensible' call on buying a porsche - I do think the 991.1 is the right balance for me right now.

Anyhow, that's all background. I've done a lot of reading and searching on these forums over the past 12 months or so (great resource - many thanks to all the regular contributors) but am inexperienced in buying used cars, particularly at this level, and so have a couple of specific questions that I'd really appreciate any further thoughts on:

(1) Would you buy from a non-porsche dealer? It was my 3rd option to be honest, preferring a private car under warranty or an OPC car, but I have found one that looks suitable. I'm not sure if it's acceptable to name the dealer here so haven't done so. 

(2) What premium would you pay for a car covered by porsche warranty? The one I'm considering has 80,000k's over 8 years with full main dealer service history. 

(3) Is it considered acceptable to call up the dealer that has the service history and ask for info from them? Will they tell you anything? The info being currently offered is just stamps in the book etc, not full invoice history. 

(4) I have no personal mechanical knowledge so will be getting a PPI. I had thought that I would nominate my own independent mechanic to do that, but the dealer is steering me towards Porsche Center Melbourne. How would you feel about that? Do you think it is important to be able to nominate someone yourself to be sure there's no conflict or is PCM sufficiently professional to be able to be relied on despite the referral. I'm a bit nervous being interstate and PCM not having to worry about an ongoing relationship, but same applies for any interstate PPI really.

(5) If I was to go down the independent path, does anyone have any recommendations for someone in melbourne on a simple unmodified 991.1 S?

(6) It is currently unregistered, but the seller is associated with a dealer in my state and is prepared to ship to them for them to sort the registration out prior to sale. I'd obviously prefer not to have to deal with the hassle so this is attractive. Assuming I'm satisfied with final price, any reason not to do this?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Cheers.

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Be aware that buying from a "non Porsche dealer" will void any extended warranty that may have been purchased by the previous owner. 

Extended warranties can now be purchased for up to 15 years from date of manufacture so well worth considering buying a car with this warranty.  Cost approx $2500 for 2 year extension.

A lot of 991 owners have it as the extended warranty "up to 15 years extension option" came into play when a lot of 991.1 initial 3 year warranty's were about to expire. 

When you buy from a private seller, any Porsche extended warranty transfers with the car.  This also applies with a Porsche dealer as they do a full check before selling and offer a 1 year warranty which can then be extended up to 15 years.  I personally would only buy a 991 with a warranty in tact, so the one you are considering would not be covered unless you have it checked by Porsche after purchase and pay for the extension after all problems have been sorted at your expense.

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4 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

Be aware that buying from a "non Porsche dealer" will void any extended warranty that may have been purchased by the previous owner. 

Extended warranties can now be purchased for up to 15 years from date of manufacture so well worth considering buying a car with this warranty.  Cost approx $2500 for 2 year extension.

A lot of 991 owners have it as the extended warranty "up to 15 years extension option" came into play when a lot of 991.1 initial 3 year warranty's were about to expire. 

When you buy from a private seller, any Porsche extended warranty transfers with the car.  This also applies with a Porsche dealer as they do a full check before selling and offer a 1 year warranty which can then be extended up to 15 years.  I personally would only buy a 991 with a warranty in tact, so the one you are considering would not be covered unless you have it checked by Porsche after purchase and pay for the extension after all problems have been sorted at your expense.

Thanks a lot for that info. It is precisely the dilemma I'm weighing up..... can I get my head around carrying the go forward risk myself if I get enough of a discount on the up front price now, and get some reasonable independent comfort that the disaster scenario is really unlikely to occur. I'm typically a risk averse kind of person but sounds like for a car at this value I wouldn't be the only one....

I hadn't heard of acquiring a warranty after the original one expires or is terminated due to transfer though, that certainly isn't publicised clearly by Porsche. Is that a standard thing or special case/exception?

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11 minutes ago, Lazo123 said:

I'm typically a risk averse kind of person

 

Then get one that is either CPO from a Porsche centre or from a good private seller who has upheld the servicing and factory warranty. 

As an example, here is where a warranty can save you.. my father has 2016 built Macan GTS, I got a Turbo in the same delivery, last year we added 2 years warranty (up to 2021) as they 3 years expired, dad is at 30kms total, I am double at near 60k... last week the centre diff gave out in his low mile car, no questions asked, they booked it for a new transfer case with a loan car... I don't even want to know what that would cost to fork out the $$$ but my point is, its cheap insurance in the scheme of things, these newer cars are complex... There was a member here that had a nightmare of a time with an early 991 PDK car and NO warranty, I believe he got lucky with having the 3rd party dealer take it back in the end, but who wants to deal with that? 

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1 hour ago, Lazo123 said:

Thanks a lot for that info. It is precisely the dilemma I'm weighing up..... can I get my head around carrying the go forward risk myself if I get enough of a discount on the up front price now, and get some reasonable independent comfort that the disaster scenario is really unlikely to occur. I'm typically a risk averse kind of person but sounds like for a car at this value I wouldn't be the only one....

I hadn't heard of acquiring a warranty after the original one expires or is terminated due to transfer though, that certainly isn't publicised clearly by Porsche. Is that a standard thing or special case/exception?

Example 2.  The PMS in my car packed up.  I believe from other forums that it is a common problem (991 and 981 and some Macans).  Cost to replace $5000.  Replaced under warranty no problem.  Best insurance I have ever had. 

Extended warranty is transferred if bought privately or through a Porsche dealer.  There has been much talk about it on PFA (search extended warranty) but extended warranty voided if bought through a non Porsche dealer.  If you buy a car less than 15 years old you can get the warranty re-established but Porsche must check the car first and you need them to rectify the problems so as the car is up to scratch.  This would be less of a worry if the car has been continually serviced by Porsche since new.  Best advice is to buy one with warranty still in place. 

1 hour ago, edgy said:

There was a member here that had a nightmare of a time with an early 991 PDK car and NO warranty, I believe he got lucky with having the 3rd party dealer take it back in the end, but who wants to deal with that? 

Worth reading this experience.  He bought a 991 just like you are considering.  PDK was nackered.  $30,000 plus to repair.  Non Porsche dealer did not really help apart from band-aid fixes that did not fix the problem which was, a new transmission was required.  Someone here will be able to share the link I am sure.

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11 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

Worth reading this experience.  He bought a 991 just like you are considering.  PDK was nackered.  $30,000 plus to repair.  Non Porsche dealer did not really help apart from band-aid fixes that did not fix the problem which was, a new transmission was required.  Someone here will be able to share the link I am sure.

This is the relevant thread: 

 

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I would pay a premium for a car with a Porsche warranty, how much it's worth to you is your decision but I think if you are willing to wait you can probably find a car from a private seller with a warranty for less than a non-Porsche dealer without a warranty as they have to make a margin.

While I know many people like to 'self insure' their cars, I drive my cars around 15,000km's a year (mostly spirited driving or long road trips) and enjoy the peace of mind putting km's on it with no worries about things breaking, some engine sound I think I can hear or anything like that. After fixing a few issues the warranty repairs have probably exceeded the cost of the warranty also which is nice.

Regarding your question about calling the place which has serviced the car, I think it's fine to call and ask about the car. When I recently sold my 981s the buyer called up the dealer and they reassured him it was a good car, serviced on time and under warranty so he purchased the car without an inspection, I also called the dealer on the 987.2 I just purchased and no problems. If there is an issue with disclosing information you can ask them to call the seller to get permission.

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Thanks all. It's very interesting to see pretty uniform views here that warranty is essential. I hadn't expected that.

I guess where i had been coming from is that there is a $25k+ value that seems to be attributed to the warranty, so if you take the worst case scenario of a $30-$40k remediation cost, you have no doubt had a hugely annoying and frustrating experience, but all in all you're out $10k or so give or take.  Then you try and mitigate the risk further by getting the PPI and combine that with the fact that generally these problems are few and far between with Porsche and you start to wonder if you're best pocketing the difference now and taking the risk on....!

It is a pretty scary story in that other thread though - poor SJL couldn't have done anything else other than buy direct from the OPC and I suppose therein lies the lesson.

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Not sure I follow the $25k value attributed to a warranty math. You should only really be paying the $2-3k premium that the actual warranty costs.

FWIW:

(1) no issue with PCM and independence. They have the kit to ppi it properly, they can access all the service records online and validate that someone hasn’t just stamped a book from the parts department which is becoming more commonplace with so called IMS bearing replacements, they have the $30k PEWIS scanner that will check all the ecu stuff). Not saying Nurburgring guy is not good, but you can’t neat going to the OEM. They owe the dealer nothing.

(2) just brought a P car from non P Car dealer. Hated every minute of it. If something goes wrong you will be on your own.

(3) dealer tried to sell me a factory warranty which I am 99% certain is a 3rd party warranty, not the same as PCA warranty

(4) google PCA extended warranty, Porsche Brighton have a pretty good explanation of how it works, the transferability, the exact cost to extend and the cost to reinstate once it has lapsed

(5) recommend getting 1-2 years pca warranty as trainer wheels until you build up the confidence to take them off. It’s peanuts on a $130k car and will retain the confidence of the board. Telling her you have a $20k transmission problem will make it your first and last Porsche if no warranty.

(6) these are not rare cars. While the money is no doubt burning a hole in your pocket, just wait until a Porsche dealer has a p approved 991.1.

(7) there was a tidy blue 991.1 with caramel interior at Porsche Sydney last week, it came with books and warranty. Looked very tidy

(8) get a car with the PCA warranty in place. There is some cost in maintaining the coverage , I.e. servicing at OPC, but if you have to reinstate the warranty you need to satisfy PCA that all scheduled works have in fact been completed. You run the risk the PO requested certain expensive things he considered not essential we’re not completed which is impossible to identify based on service book stamps alone.

(9) if after all this you insist on charging ahead please make sure the contract is explicit about who owns the car while being transported to qld. If it gets scratched, over revved or damaged did you own the car and they were just arranging transport on your behalf, or do you take ownership in Brisbane once registered. Be explicit (I have a p car currently on a transporter and in hi end sight I would have liked to be a bit more specific on these issues). 

(10) if you do buy from an OPC, insist as condition of the sale that they track down / print off all the physical service history from the PCA system as for what ever reason no one keeps this stuff anymore. This stuff is essential to give the next buyer confidence it has been serviced properly.

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Thanks a lot 550Spyder. That $25k is just my estimate of extra price vendors are asking for on the warranted cars, maybe I've misvalued some other variables though, especially if as you suggest you can subsequently buy the porsche warranty from an OPC if the car checks out. Seems a really material jump to me, hence my temptation to go the other way. Even at Porsche prices I'd like to think you can do a lot of work for that much cash saved. But I am hearing the advice here loud and clear - don't risk ruining your porsche experience for the $25k peanuts. 

Thanks for the reminder that they're not rare. It's easy to get caught up in the excitement of being ready to push the button but I know you're right. Particularly given I'm pretty flexible on spec....

29 minutes ago, NBTBRV8 said:

I know where there is a nice 991.1 GT3 for sale with warranty :)

As much as I love the idea in theory, the GT3 probably doesn't suit my use case as well.... plus i'd never get approval from the boss for it! 

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Hi - just to close the loop on this, someone bought this car today (it stood out price wise against the other listings if you could get past the warranty point), but it wasn't me! Decided to wait for the perfect car with the perfect seller..... at least for the next few months whilst I still have patience!

Thanks for all the thoughts and advice.

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Re the GT3 suggested by @NBTBRV8.  When you have posted a few more times, you will notice that members never pass up an opportunity.  It's a good car though the GT3.  Red, well looked after and you will regret it later that you did not buy it.😀😀

On a serious note though. Good decision to wait.  I am sure we will all now send you examples of good cars we have seen or know of.  Out of interest what is your budget and what are your must have specs?  We know your first must have already is "Still under warranty" 😂 but what is next?  Colour, Manual, PDK etc?

Here is a nice one for example.  Fully loaded with all the good bits.  Includes warranty, books and a bargain at $150K.  Perfect colour too.  Actually I like it that much I may go look at it

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2013-porsche-911-carrera-s-991-auto/SSE-AD-6548977/?Cr=1

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Thanks Lucky Phil. Really appreciate your thoughts.

I agree that one is just about perfect and is on the short list, though I haven't yet contacted the seller. The only reason it's not 100% perfect to me is no paddle shifters. From what I've read that seems to be a pretty simple post acquisition fix though.

Interesting you say colour is perfect - I test drove a white 991.1 GTS about 6 months ago in my last serious look but wasn't sure about the colour - though it may just have not been well looked after. Apart from general dullness, one thing that really looked off to me were the stoneguards (not sure if thats the right description - but plastic sheets on the body in front of the rear wheels). They looked off-white/yellow against the paint work that was still white. I've seen the stats that show white as far and away the most popular colour in 911s though so that's why I just wondered if it was a bad example. It's the main reason I haven't contacted the seller - I'm not sure I'd buy it without seeing it in person myself and I'm not able to get down to Melbourne any time soon.

Otherwise for me - perfect spec is pretty flexible but would centre around a 911.1 S coupe with sports chrono and exhaust. Prefer paddles, but assume i can fix later. Couldn't care less about sunroofs, seat heaters and other mod-cons and interior aesthetic things - to be honest my wifes volvo has better versions of all that stuff and it is nothing to do with why I want this car!

There's actually a couple of others within 10k of that one with the same sort of ideal spec. It's just that the one that sold was advertised at 130k and when I spoke to the dealer was clearly negotiable though I never made a formal offer. It has basically the same spec as well (more miles (80k) and agate grey but otherwise same on the points that matter) and I guess it has anchored me to the idea that the right price is something more sub $130k.

Maybe I'm dreaming though....

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1 hour ago, Lazo123 said:

Thanks Lucky Phil. Really appreciate your thoughts.

I agree that one is just about perfect and is on the short list, though I haven't yet contacted the seller. The only reason it's not 100% perfect to me is no paddle shifters. From what I've read that seems to be a pretty simple post acquisition fix though.

Interesting you say colour is perfect - I test drove a white 991.1 GTS about 6 months ago in my last serious look but wasn't sure about the colour - though it may just have not been well looked after. Apart from general dullness, one thing that really looked off to me were the stoneguards (not sure if thats the right description - but plastic sheets on the body in front of the rear wheels). They looked off-white/yellow against the paint work that was still white. I've seen the stats that show white as far and away the most popular colour in 911s though so that's why I just wondered if it was a bad example. It's the main reason I haven't contacted the seller - I'm not sure I'd buy it without seeing it in person myself and I'm not able to get down to Melbourne any time soon.

Otherwise for me - perfect spec is pretty flexible but would centre around a 911.1 S coupe with sports chrono and exhaust. Prefer paddles, but assume i can fix later. Couldn't care less about sunroofs, seat heaters and other mod-cons and interior aesthetic things - to be honest my wifes volvo has better versions of all that stuff and it is nothing to do with why I want this car!

There's actually a couple of others within 10k of that one with the same sort of ideal spec. It's just that the one that sold was advertised at 130k and when I spoke to the dealer was clearly negotiable though I never made a formal offer. It has basically the same spec as well (more miles (80k) and agate grey but otherwise same on the points that matter) and I guess it has anchored me to the idea that the right price is something more sub $130k.

Maybe I'm dreaming though....

Stoneguards seem to do that with age - we had a seal grey 987, and the same happened.  Relatively easy replacement.  Also, steering wheel switcheroo to flappy paddles is also a reasonably easy change over, just $$$ for the wheel and reprogramming - $2500-$3k I think??.  Certainly agree a flappy paddle is great with the PDK - that was one of my requirements when we got our 981.  I was surprised how many hadn't been optioned that way.  Certainly more preferable than the multi-function wheel too. 

***Edit - here's a recent thread on the subject  ***

 

I love a white car too, had white dailies for last 15 years, just out of one at the moment.  I wanted a white 981 but seeing as it is my wife's car she had the say, so it ended up as dark blue.  Also, beggars can't be choosers when it comes to 1st gen 996 GT3's I had to take what was available which was silver.....

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