reso18 Posted 2August, 2020 Report Share Posted 2August, 2020 On 31/07/2020 at 11:15, Steve996 said: Interested in this thread. Are you able to share indicative pricing? LN Engineering list their bottom end 3.8 upgrade for the 996.2 3.6 at ~$5k USD. Is Hartech cheaper than that? An interesting comparo on some different approaches to making the 6.1 more fun (probably equally as applicable to the 6.2): https://rpmtechnik.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/mag06_compressed.pdf Hartech where cheaper only because of shipping. And there 'rebuild kit' they put together for me was also cheaper and used oem porsche parts. they also organised pickup of the block on there end. The 3.9L Liners/Pistons/pins etc came in at 4500 GBP. All up the 3.9L conversion, Rebuild kit, updated IMS shaft and everything needed to rebuild my engine came in at 8,017 GBP which Google tells me is around 14,500 AUD. 7 hours ago, philipk said: I will be ringing Greg Bailey in the morning about the upgrade /rebuild.and I will put an update onto the forum. Any other questions anyone wants me to ask? Highly recommend Greg Bailey. Awesome bloke and is very knowledgeable on the m96 engine. Steve996 and White_996 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipk Posted 3August, 2020 Author Report Share Posted 3August, 2020 13 hours ago, reso18 said: Hartech where cheaper only because of shipping. And there 'rebuild kit' they put together for me was also cheaper and used oem porsche parts. they also organised pickup of the block on there end. The 3.9L Liners/Pistons/pins etc came in at 4500 GBP. All up the 3.9L conversion, Rebuild kit, updated IMS shaft and everything needed to rebuild my engine came in at 8,017 GBP which Google tells me is around 14,500 AUD. Highly recommend Greg Bailey. Awesome bloke and is very knowledgeable on the m96 engine. Fantastic,thanks for that info. How long ago did you do your rebuild? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reso18 Posted 3August, 2020 Report Share Posted 3August, 2020 I finished the rebuild a couple months ago. Since then the car has completed around 2,000kms of faultless driving. I had abit of guidance on the engine overhaul from Greg himself, super helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipk Posted 3August, 2020 Author Report Share Posted 3August, 2020 3 hours ago, reso18 said: I finished the rebuild a couple months ago. Since then the car has completed around 2,000kms of faultless driving. I had abit of guidance on the engine overhaul from Greg himself, super helpful. Thanks, my problem is I can build a house but I cannot rebuild a Porsche engine!! I have to pay for labour as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipk Posted 3August, 2020 Author Report Share Posted 3August, 2020 Spoke to Greg, very nice helpful guy. Here is the run down. He gave me 4 Options. 1. 997 3.6 Motor 80k km swap $12k for engine and approx $3k labour stripping parts from my engine,electrics,k &n intake etc Lets say $15/16k 2. Rebuild my motor $20k max but he does not think it need a total rebuild. Heres hoping. 3 Hartech 3.9litre rebulid of my engine approx $30k 4. 4.0 litre upgade approx $40k. In his words rebuild mine. The upgrades do not make that big a differance for what I need. I am thinking rebuild mine, buy some new wheels tyres for track days,maybe a little bit of suspension work and have some fun! I feel keeping the original motor is the best thing to do, even though it is a water cooled!! matching numbers will me nice! Taffy, michel, JV911 and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merv Posted 3August, 2020 Report Share Posted 3August, 2020 These straightened financial times suggest some prudence and the second option may be the most sensible, especially with some warranty on the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTY Posted 3August, 2020 Report Share Posted 3August, 2020 Stick to the rebuild of the original motor at least the car will be matching numbers if nothing else plus the rebuild will make it more sellable down the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipk Posted 3August, 2020 Author Report Share Posted 3August, 2020 I have decided option 2 will be best. Dalai, Steve996, Dave997S and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st3ve Posted 4August, 2020 Report Share Posted 4August, 2020 What sort of pistons/bore is with option 2? It seems this is the most tricky part of the m96 refurbishment. Thin alusil bores, cantilevered top and bottom, prone to scoring/ovalling/cracking... a difficult part to breathe new life into. If I understand correctly, the two main players bore the original liners away completely. Australian engineers have historically been brilliant at just this sort of thing - fixing something locally that is too expensive/difficult to send back or buy new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffy Posted 4August, 2020 Report Share Posted 4August, 2020 I have seen Greg’s work first hand on rebuilds and he knows his stuff on the m96/7s. Even doing the bore increase to a car here in the UK does not stack up $ wise for me. Good luck with the build, a fresh engine is always a nice thing to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merv Posted 4August, 2020 Report Share Posted 4August, 2020 9 hours ago, st3ve said: What sort of pistons/bore is with option 2? It seems this is the most tricky part of the m96 refurbishment. Thin alusil bores, cantilevered top and bottom, prone to scoring/ovalling/cracking... a difficult part to breathe new life into. If I understand correctly, the two main players bore the original liners away completely. Australian engineers have historically been brilliant at just this sort of thing - fixing something locally that is too expensive/difficult to send back or buy new. True Steve. Swapping out worn components for new ones can't always do the job properly or at a reasonable price. However, I found when getting the rebuild of my 68 2.0L done that there is a dearth of good engineers in QLD who can do the crucial boring, shaping and other modifications to heads, barrels, valve seats, cranks, etc. Mine had to go to Melbourne for some work and fortunately there was one elderly engineer with the expertise on the metal work here in Brisbane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st3ve Posted 4August, 2020 Report Share Posted 4August, 2020 36 minutes ago, Merv said: True Steve. Swapping out worn components for new ones can't always do the job properly or at a reasonable price. However, I found when getting the rebuild of my 68 2.0L done that there is a dearth of good engineers in QLD who can do the crucial boring, shaping and other modifications to heads, barrels, valve seats, cranks, etc. Mine had to go to Melbourne for some work and fortunately there was one elderly engineer with the expertise on the metal work here in Brisbane. Spot on, I trimmed my previous post to remove the bit bemoaning the fact that most such engineers are dying out and only baristas, hairdressers, computer games designers, social media influencers etc are following in their wake... As a noob, I thought I should avoid offending any baristas, hairdressers, computer games designers or social media influencers who may be present. These skills are (still) out there, but often hard to locate or simply aren't taking on work. I know of two guys specifically in Sth Brissie who are absolute guns at exactly the work you needed done above, but they are not 'on the Porsche radar', don't advertise and are full up working on their own niche stuff. They're also probably both getting toward/into their 60's (which I'm finding is not as old as I used to think it was!) and as I mentioned there's no obvious successors. I started out as a machinist, and can bore a hole and turn up a sleeve. But going from that to refurbishing an M96 crankcase to go hard for another 250,000km or more are two different things, and there would be a lot of design and understanding required to come up with a reliable solution such as what Hartec has done. Anyway, what I was interested in is what piston/bore solution is included in Philip's 'Option2' above. Is someone doing full liner replacements in Oz, that would be great to know. I'm new to the Porsche scene but had never heard of Greg Bailey, checking out the website that's some amazing stuff! Merv and michel 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipk Posted 5August, 2020 Author Report Share Posted 5August, 2020 2 hours ago, st3ve said: Spot on, I trimmed my previous post to remove the bit bemoaning the fact that most such engineers are dying out and only baristas, hairdressers, computer games designers, social media influencers etc are following in their wake... As a noob, I thought I should avoid offending any baristas, hairdressers, computer games designers or social media influencers who may be present. These skills are (still) out there, but often hard to locate or simply aren't taking on work. I know of two guys specifically in Sth Brissie who are absolute guns at exactly the work you needed done above, but they are not 'on the Porsche radar', don't advertise and are full up working on their own niche stuff. They're also probably both getting toward/into their 60's (which I'm finding is not as old as I used to think it was!) and as I mentioned there's no obvious successors. I started out as a machinist, and can bore a hole and turn up a sleeve. But going from that to refurbishing an M96 crankcase to go hard for another 250,000km or more are two different things, and there would be a lot of design and understanding required to come up with a reliable solution such as what Hartec has done. Anyway, what I was interested in is what piston/bore solution is included in Philip's 'Option2' above. Is someone doing full liner replacements in Oz, that would be great to know. I'm new to the Porsche scene but had never heard of Greg Bailey, checking out the website that's some amazing stuff! Sorry but I did not get down to piston/bore solutions. The discussion was more what are my options. As I said he gave me 4 which is great! He also said whole engine may not need redoing but I think at 240k a few things will need doing!! Greg said he just rebuilt his own 2004 3.6 engine to stock so he knows what to expect. He said once he has the motor out and apart he will know! I guess I decide then how far the rebuild goes. Only other issue now is going more than 5km from home in the next 6 weeks to deliver the car to him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoHeadsTas Posted 5August, 2020 Report Share Posted 5August, 2020 47 minutes ago, philipk said: Sorry but I did not get down to piston/bore solutions. The discussion was more what are my options. As I said he gave me 4 which is great! He also said whole engine may not need redoing but I think at 240k a few things will need doing!! Greg said he just rebuilt his own 2004 3.6 engine to stock so he knows what to expect. He said once he has the motor out and apart he will know! I guess I decide then how far the rebuild goes. Only other issue now is going more than 5km from home in the next 6 weeks to deliver the car to him! Meet half way? Anyhow think Motor Repairers are OK to travel, perhaps he can collect from you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st3ve Posted 6August, 2020 Report Share Posted 6August, 2020 On 05/08/2020 at 11:17, philipk said: Sorry but I did not get down to piston/bore solutions. The discussion was more what are my options. As I said he gave me 4 which is great! He also said whole engine may not need redoing but I think at 240k a few things will need doing!! Greg said he just rebuilt his own 2004 3.6 engine to stock so he knows what to expect. He said once he has the motor out and apart he will know! I guess I decide then how far the rebuild goes. Only other issue now is going more than 5km from home in the next 6 weeks to deliver the car to him! Thanks for the info, it would be interesting to hear how you get on and what methods are used. Sympathies for the movement restrictions, it's a diabolical situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911CSR Posted 30September, 2020 Report Share Posted 30September, 2020 I'd be extremely interested to see how this is progressing and any updates.. I am considering a rebuild of my 2003 C4S so this is right where i am... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st3ve Posted 30September, 2020 Report Share Posted 30September, 2020 The $10k bump in price for the Hartec 3.9 is understandable since it would imply sending the crankcases to the UK, six super duper liners and a new set of pistons. Yet another $10k for the 4.0lt is presumably a stroker crank as well for that money? Doesn't make sense otherwise since the cost of pistons and crankcase work would be similar whether it be 3.9 or 4.0 on the same stroke. It would be interesting to know what piston/bore work is included in the 'Option2' you mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911CSR Posted 5October, 2020 Report Share Posted 5October, 2020 Do you know what sleeves he is going to use? Flat 6 / LN Engineering use the Nikasil "Nikkies", however a Google search says there is a place in Victoria "Electrosil" that can also Nikasil coat bores etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTP Posted 19January, 2021 Report Share Posted 19January, 2021 Electrosil (L M Electroplating) in Greensborough, Melbourne replated our cylinders. Their new Nikasil plating started flaking off after 160 hours of use – I guess this would be the equivalent of about 12,000 kilometres. We had an hour meter not an odometer. Looking around the net, it seems that Nikasil is supposed to be coated thinly and gets brittle if too thick. The photo attached of our failed cylinder looks to me to be a very thick layer of Nikasil. Electrosil would not refund the job but did offer to do the replating again. The super hard Nikasil (Nickel Silicon Carbide) flakes created an enormous mess inside our engine so I wouldn’t risk it again. The Nikasil would have just ended up thicker anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D'Silva Posted 20January, 2021 Report Share Posted 20January, 2021 1 hour ago, RTP said: Electrosil (L M Electroplating) in Greensborough, Melbourne replated our cylinders. Their new Nikasil plating started flaking off after 160 hours of use – I guess this would be the equivalent of about 12,000 kilometres. We had an hour meter not an odometer. Looking around the net, it seems that Nikasil is supposed to be coated thinly and gets brittle if too thick. The photo attached of our failed cylinder looks to me to be a very thick layer of Nikasil. Electrosil would not refund the job but did offer to do the replating again. The super hard Nikasil (Nickel Silicon Carbide) flakes created an enormous mess inside our engine so I wouldn’t risk it again. The Nikasil would have just ended up thicker anyway. Curious what that cylinder is from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian in buddina Posted 20January, 2021 Report Share Posted 20January, 2021 potentially lots of work for you, @Mike D'Silva in water cooled motors. There must be a way of “economically” locally rebuilding these motors... Mike D'Silva 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTP Posted 20January, 2021 Report Share Posted 20January, 2021 The failed Nikasil re-plating job is from a German Limbach L2400 motor which is basically a Type 25 VW WaterBoxer with the water shrouds machined off and air cooled cylinders and heads installed. Limbach also make a L2000 2 litre based on the VW Type 1 motor. They have horrendously expensive Nikasil cylinders. A lot of people rebuild their Limbach motors with VW cast iron cylinders but the case and heads need some machining and the compression ratio checked & adjusted. In the VW world there are heaps and heaps of different sized air cooled cast iron cylinders / piston kits. If you could get the correct case flange size it might be possible to machine the other end to fit your Porsche heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merv Posted 20January, 2021 Report Share Posted 20January, 2021 That seems to be poor customer service. I see that LN Engineering now make the parts for water cooled motors (or have been for some time). I got a set of pistons and barrels from them for my 68, 911 and they were superb. No cheap however https://lnengineering.com/products/parts-and-upgrades-for-porsche-boxster-cayman-and-911-engines/m96-engine.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTP Posted 20January, 2021 Report Share Posted 20January, 2021 IMPORTANT: Please don't get LN Engineering and L M Electroplating (Electrosil) mixed up. Different companies. My failed Nikasil replating job was done by L M Electroplating which trades as Electrosil In Greensborough, Melbourne . Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911CSR Posted 21January, 2021 Report Share Posted 21January, 2021 On 20/01/2021 at 15:44, Merv said: That seems to be poor customer service. I see that LN Engineering now make the parts for water cooled motors (or have been for some time). I got a set of pistons and barrels from them for my 68, 911 and they were superb. No cheap however https://lnengineering.com/products/parts-and-upgrades-for-porsche-boxster-cayman-and-911-engines/m96-engine.html I have ordered pistons and liners from LN for my 996. The reviews of their stuff has always been top quality, and maybe explains the price. Merv and Steve996 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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