IMS Bearing Question

[Shane911]

I have a 996 manual and have obviously heard about the issues this model can have with the IMS bearing and am wondering if anyone has had preventative maintenance done on the IMS bearing.

I have read that there are solutions in the form of a IMS retro fit (offered by dealers in the USA). Does anyone know if these are available in Australia, and if so where and approx how much does it cost?

Has anyone had this done and how did it turn out?

My car is not showing any signs of having an issue with the IMS (it has 84k kms) would you recommend get a retro fit bearing done just in case?  

 

Any other thought or commentary would be welcome.

[Joz]

Like the US both dealerships and the Independents offer the service here.

Others who have had it done locally will chime in I'm sure.

[Carrera28]

What year is your car? 

The early 996s had dual row bearings which appear to be less prone to failure?  

When was the clutch last replaced on your car?  A lot of people replace the bearing when they do the clutch.

You can get pretty much all of the options in Australia, there is no universal advice regarding the bearing as some cars had done relatively high miles with no material wear on the bearing and others have had problems early.  You will potentially find reluctance from anyone to give advice on what you should do vis a vie replacing immediately or waiting and it comes down to your budget and your appetite for risk.

When my car was serviced I had an oil fed bearing, but this is one of the more expensive options but as I was replacing the clutch the labour at least was minimal.

The local guru @MFX has posted some excellent videos on the IMS (I have linked two below)

 

[911CSR]

As you are in Sydney, Autohaus Hamilton can do them as they did mine for the previous owner. 

If you are OK to travel a little, Autowerks on the Central Coast can also do them and Simon there is awesome 

[Shane911]

3 hours ago, Carrera28 said:

What year is your car? 

The early 996s had dual row bearings which appear to be less prone to failure?  

When was the clutch last replaced on your car?  A lot of people replace the bearing when they do the clutch.

You can get pretty much all of the options in Australia, there is no universal advice regarding the bearing as some cars had done relatively high miles with no material wear on the bearing and others have had problems early.  You will potentially find reluctance from anyone to give advice on what you should do vis a vie replacing immediately or waiting and it comes down to your budget and your appetite for risk.

When my car was serviced I had an oil fed bearing, but this is one of the more expensive options but as I was replacing the clutch the labour at least was minimal.

The local guru @MFX has posted some excellent videos on the IMS (I have linked two below)

 

My Porsche is a 2001 and according to the copious amounts of information available on the internet it will almost certainly be a single row bearing (I have owned the car since 2006 and it only had 17k kms on the clock when I bought it so it is almost certainly original). The clutch has never been replaced and still feels fine.

The more I read about the options to replace the IMS Bearing the more confused I become, with some insisting that the IMS Solution with direct oil feed being the best solution and others saying that the FVD Ceramic bearing is the better option.  I have been in contact with Autohaus and they will only do the FVD ceramic fix (they don't like the IMS Solution at all) but the price they quoted is eye watering (the bearing only costs $500)  (they would replace the clutch and flywheel at the same time for the price quoted (which makes sense) 

The car is running fine but from what I read there is no warning signs that your IMS is about to fail and if it does you could be up for a new engine, but then I have also read that only about 5% of the bearings fail, so don't know if to continue to risk it and get it done when I need a new clutch.

[mal911]

Hi Shane911

Ball park figure on replacing IMS bearing up around $5000

rebuild engine on a 996 I'm guessing $50,000??????

I know which option I would be taking ASAP

Call Ralph at RPMS in Arncliffe I noticed he had 2x996s getting the IMS bearing done this week 

[Carrera28]

5 minutes ago, Shane911 said:

My Porsche is a 2001 and according to the copious amounts of information available on the internet it will almost certainly be a single row bearing (I have owned the car since 2006 and it only had 17k kms on the clock when I bought it so it is almost certainly original). The clutch has never been replaced and still feels fine.

The more I read about the options to replace the IMS Bearing the more confused I become, with some insisting that the IMS Solution with direct oil feed being the best solution and others saying that the FVD Ceramic bearing is the better option.  I have been in contact with Autohaus and they will only do the FVD ceramic fix (they don't like the IMS Solution at all) but the price they quoted is eye watering (the bearing only costs $500)  (they would replace the clutch and flywheel at the same time for the price quoted (which makes sense) 

The car is running fine but from what I read there is no warning signs that your IMS is about to fail and if it does you could be up for a new engine, but then I have also read that only about 5% of the bearings fail, so don't know if to continue to risk it and get it done when I need a new clutch.

I feel your pain.  I would also recommend talking to PRT in Brookvale to get their views and a quote.  It might also be worth talking to the VW Centre in Newcastle as the owner Peter Shelley is a Porsche guru so if you can speak with him (presuming he still owns it) he is a straight shooter.

Unfortunately the labour costs are the same as fitting a new clutch so it is expensive to fit.

The consequences of IMS Bearing failure are catastrophic so the difficulty in getting a definitive opinion  as no one wants to be the cause of you suffering engine failure.

Here are some links that may help or confuse:

https://lnengineering.com/products/the-definitive-guide-and-faq-for-porsche-ims-bearings.html

http://pedrosgarage.com/Site_2/IMS_Guardian.html

I personally favour the oil fed kit as the concept of a bearing that is always lubricated strikes me as the best solution, and is what my mechanically minded friends felt was the best solution. 

However, that is only a personal opinion (remember opinions are like BMWs, everyone has one!!) from someone who had to make decision in a confusing environment and the most over engineered solution seemed to my mind to provide most peace of mind.  

A replacement motor is a likely to be $15k minimum and could be significantly more.

If you have the funds I personally would do the reading, watch the Youtube videos and pick the one you feel most comfortable with and have fitted by well known shop.  At the end of the day from what I understand it will not negatively impact your motor and it may prevent a catastrophe. 

Plus if you ever need to sell your car it will be easier to sell if it has had one of the options fitted.  Some of the options come with a sticker which you put on the inside of engine cover to show the relevant product has been fitted (make sure you mechanic does this as it will help to prove its fitted)

3 minutes ago, mal911 said:

Hi Shane911

Ball park figure on replacing IMS bearing up around $5000

rebuild engine on a 996 I'm guessing $50,000??????

I know which option I would be taking ASAP

Call Ralph at RPMS in Arncliffe I noticed he had 2x996s getting the IMS bearing done this week 

Plus if you have a blown motor the car is worth effectively close to zero so suddenly your asset is worth close to zero and will be difficult to sell.

[Shane911]

28 minutes ago, mal911 said:

Hi Shane911

Ball park figure on replacing IMS bearing up around $5000

rebuild engine on a 996 I'm guessing $50,000??????

I know which option I would be taking ASAP

Call Ralph at RPMS in Arncliffe I noticed he had 2x996s getting the IMS bearing done this week 

I was quoted $7k for the FVD IMS ceramic bearing, and replacing the clutch and fly wheel.

[mal911]

9 minutes ago, Shane911 said:

I was quoted $7k for the FVD IMS ceramic bearing, and replacing the clutch and fly wheel.

I guess it seems like a lot of money for something thats out of sight out of mind.

Over the last 15 years I found Ralph to be very competitive with his pricing and talks no BS

Like Carrera28 said.. everyone has an opinion or a BMW😀

Let your finger do the walking

[Carrera28]

25 minutes ago, Shane911 said:

I was quoted $7k for the FVD IMS ceramic bearing, and replacing the clutch and fly wheel.

Labour for fitting mine was around $1,650, but at time of decision to fit a solution the car was already in bits so I suspect this is probably closer to $2k (or maybe more?)

Clutch, Dual Mass Flywheel, clutch fork and clutch pivot ball was around $2,800 (standard clutch not a heavy duty clutch with lightened fly wheel)

Plus the IMS Solution costs which depend on what you go with and whether you source it yourself.

Plus oil costs, my car has expanded sump so that's 12 litres of oil which for fully synthetic is well over $100

Got to say I was shocked when I saw $7k but going through my invoices  I can definitely see where the $7k cost comes from.

But for that price you get peace of mind and a brand new clutch, since it seems you are mechanically sympathetic with your clutch should therefore easily give you another you another 75,00kms plus of worry free motoring.

Without a dual row bearing in the car I personally would not be inclined to take the risk.

[MFX]

The single row bearing you have is the one that is most prone to failure, although the odds are still well in your favour that it will be fine. Both my 996 and 986 with dual row bearings with well over 100k kms were fine. 

The 'solution' is much more expensive and still people with it have had failures so it is not fool proof. I personally think just replace the bearing with one of the upgraded versions, every time you change your clutch is probably the best you can do. Nothing is 100%, but it is not worth losing too much sleep over.

One of the ways to monitor it is to regularly change the oil, and pull open the oil filter to have a look for any metal particles. It is not fool proof, but it can give you a bit of fore warning.

In my experience the bearings alone cost just over $1k, and there is a fair amount of labor to replace. Pulling the gearbox is not my favourite job although tip's have it worse as I believe the engine has to come out too to replace it.

I only did it because it was something to put in a video and it also adds value to the car/makes the car easier to sell when that time comes. It has been discussed before but the $5k ish cost is generally balanced as around $5k added value to the car so it is not wasted money.

It is up to your risk tolerance, but for me I would monitor the oil filter and replace it when you do the clutch.

[Jim45]

I had mine replaced recently by EMD at Caringbah. Paul is an ex Porsche head Technician so I trust his judgement.

I only did it as I needed a clutch otherwise I was happy to run the original bearing.

But it's done and will stop the haggling if I ever sell it!

I went with one EMD recommended - https://www.europeanpartssolution.com/ims-oil-feed-modification

As part of the IMS update he also includes RMS along with fluids etc.

No problems so far or difference to oil pressure.

 

[tomo]

Yep have too agree oil fed solution is the go ,Less moving parts and plenty of oil getting pumped in.

[Joz]

It’s really another insurance for piece of mind..

Somethings in life need to be insured.

[Sherpa]

21 hours ago, mal911 said:

I guess it seems like a lot of money for something thats out of sight out of mind.

Over the last 15 years I found Ralph to be very competitive with his pricing and talks no BS

Like Carrera28 said.. everyone has an opinion or a BMW😀

Let your finger do the walking

I second this. Ralph is a no BS mechanic and pretty pragmatic in his approach.

He did my car’s IMS 5 years before I bought it. I believe he only recommends the “Solution” using an oil-fed bushing. Because that’s the only one that’s a permanent solution to the issue.

I sleep better knowing it’s done.

[Peter M]

22 hours ago, MFX said:

The 'solution' is much more expensive and still people with it have had failures so it is not fool proof.

Jeff,

How could the IMS Solution fail? The oil line becoming detached and the engine seizing after it has pumped all it's oil out?

[MFX]

9 minutes ago, Peter M said:

Jeff,

How could the IMS Solution fail? The oil line becoming detached and the engine seizing after it has pumped all it's oil out?

I have heard second hand reports of it failing. No first hand experience myself so I am not sure how it happened or how credible it is, but nothing is perfect. 

[Rajvosa]

I am in Perth

had a Porsche specialist do FVD bearing, new clutch, flywheel, oil/air separator valve, service and paid $6500. 
 

i had dual row bearing and car had 138kms. Clutch started to slip and bearing that came out was very very close to giving up. Mechanic gave me couple of weeks before it failed ! 

[Tips]

3 hours ago, Rajvosa said:

I am in Perth

had a Porsche specialist do FVD bearing, new clutch, flywheel, oil/air separator valve, service and paid $6500. 
 

i had dual row bearing and car had 138kms. Clutch started to slip and bearing that came out was very very close to giving up. Mechanic gave me couple of weeks before it failed ! 

😱 mine went in to Autohaus on Friday for the same reasons, clutch slipping, weeping oil separator so throwing the kitchen sink at it.

3 hours ago, MFX said:

I have heard second hand reports of it failing. No first hand experience myself so I am not sure how it happened or how credible it is, but nothing is perfect. 

Jeff AH told me they are now also checking the tension guides as there are reports from overseas these have been failing. Apparently one goes and the off set pressure in the new bearing can cause a failure. Again second hand but they tell me currentlt 50% of the tensioners they test fail the spring compression rating so the replace them when doing the IMS. I am waiting to see what the verdict is on mine next week as it adds $800 to the bill 🙄

[tomo]

A Good read about the Ims solution.

https://www.callasrennsport.com/blog/the-ims-solution

[Zelrik911]

12 hours ago, Tips said:

😱 mine went in to Autohaus on Friday for the same reasons, clutch slipping, weeping oil separator so throwing the kitchen sink at it.

Jeff AH told me they are now also checking the tension guides as there are reports from overseas these have been failing. Apparently one goes and the off set pressure in the new bearing can cause a failure. Again second hand but they tell me currentlt 50% of the tensioners they test fail the spring compression rating so the replace them when doing the IMS. I am waiting to see what the verdict is on mine next week as it adds $800 to the bill 🙄

Does this mean that the engine has to come out so the Tensioners can be done on the workshop bench?

This tensioner theory does make sense to me as pressure tensioners are a short-life item on many engines. Porsche SUV v8s also have tensioner blockage issues.

[tomo]

Some info

https://blog.fcpeuro.com/porsche-996-911-timing-chain-kits-symptoms-product-review

[MFX]

6 hours ago, Zelrik911 said:

Does this mean that the engine has to come out so the Tensioners can be done on the workshop bench?

This tensioner theory does make sense to me as pressure tensioners are a short-life item on many engines. Porsche SUV v8s also have tensioner blockage issues.

The tensioners are super simple in a 996 and can be done with the engine in. You need to remove them to change the IMS bearing and all you need to do is lock the crank at top dead centre and lock the cams, then they just unbolt. If you had the correct tools and a hoist you could change them all out in an hour easily.

[Shane911]

On 12/03/2022 at 17:38, Peter M said:

Jeff,

How could the IMS Solution fail? The oil line becoming detached and the engine seizing after it has pumped all it's oil out?

This is the reason Autohaus gave me for why they refuse to fit the "IMS Solution" they say that the oil line from the filter to the IMS bearing is unprotected and could easily come off or be damaged just by driving over rough road, then you loose all your engine oil and could wreck the engine.

[Peter M]

15 hours ago, Shane911 said:

This is the reason Autohaus gave me for why they refuse to fit the "IMS Solution" they say that the oil line from the filter to the IMS bearing is unprotected and could easily come off or be damaged just by driving over rough road, then you loose all your engine oil and could wreck the engine.

Thanks Shane.

While I'm no fan of Raby, I don't think he would be foolish enough to design an oil line that would hang down lower enough to be snagged on a rough road.

So I turned to Google Images for the truth (!) and found:

Mmmm, looks pretty safe to me and with a little bit of work it could be tucked and secured to further reduce the possibility.

I still think I would go IMS "Solution" for my 996.  There is a reason roller/ball bearings are almost never used for cam drives due to their sensitivity to torsional vibration which is inherent when driving cams.