Was talked out of buying a boxster by Porsche Mechanic

[_Tony]

Have been looking at various options in my search to buy a porsche and one of those was an early model boxster S.

 

I came across a 2000 model manual boxster S with about 73,000km and first impressions, looked in very good condition and drove well. 

 

I called a reputable porsche mechanic to get a PPI done and to say the least, he was scathing as far as boxsters were concerned. In a nutshell he told me he has had many boxster clients with numerous issues IMS problems aside, i would potentially be up for big $$$. He did not rate the motors at all given the work he has done on them.

 

He went onto say he would never purchase one himself.

 

Given what he told me, i was put off to say the least and have cancelled the ppi at this stage. 

 

I know pelican have this article on the various issues: http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Boxster_Tech/13-ENGINE-Common_Engine_Failures/13-ENGINE-Common_Engine_Failures.htm

 

But was wanting some feedback here as to how accurate this really is and whether i may be taking too much of a risk getting something of that era. I know a few members on here own these, so interested in peoples experience and thoughts

 

 

 

 

 

[tazzieman]

Well the Pelican list is long and scary and enough to put me off these toys. I like to be in control of my $!

Let's hear from the long term owners - what's your annual maintenance bills averaged over the years?

Then compare that to any other modern car of the same age.

Almost every brand seems to have it's weakness(es).

"The Golf's been recalled Frank"

[Russ]

I've been told a similar thing by a mechanic, with a bunch of engines in for repair/rebuild/replacement

 

I've never had any personal experience though

 

[T-Man]

That is the first time I read the Pelican article Tony.

There are a number of very satisfied Boxster owners on this forum and it would be interesting to hear their feedback.

I must ask though......It's a long way from looking for a 993!!

[Caver]

Well, a lot of those issues, D sections, cracks, porosity were sorted out with the updated 2.7 litre engine in 2000.

 

IMS remains a low risk and most buyers schedule in a replacement of the bearing around clutch time.

 

I purposely went for a Boxster no earlier than 2003 as there were other changes made, mainly to the body and suspension, that were desireable.  I find that the running costs and service costs are less than my Subaru Forester.  Insurance is slightly higher.

 

Depends on your attitude to risk, however, I wasn't put off by the potential problems and have a definite plan for changing the IMS in due course.

[_Tony]

That is the first time I read the Pelican article Tony.

There are a number of very satisfied Boxster owners on this forum and it would be interesting to hear their feedback.

I must ask though......It's a long way from looking for a 993!!

It is a long way off a 993. My ideal would be a manual 993, but have to wait a bit longer to get one given the price point. I think I've come to the conclusion I want a manual over a tip 993. I thought something more affordable in the interim would be nice.

[_Tony]

Well, a lot of those issues, D sections, cracks, porosity were sorted out with the updated 2.7 litre engine in 2000.

IMS remains a low risk and most buyers schedule in a replacement of the bearing around clutch time.

I purposely went for a Boxster no earlier than 2003 as there were other changes made, mainly to the body and suspension, that were desireable. I find that the running costs and service costs are less than my Subaru Forester. Insurance is slightly higher.

Depends on your attitude to risk, however, I wasn't put off by the potential problems and have a definite plan for changing the IMS in due course.

Thanks, were there any other improvements on te motor from 2003 on?

I actually test drove a 2003 at one point and thought it was actually more responsive than the earlier models Ive tried (2000/2001 models)

[withers]

Have been looking at various options in my search to buy a porsche and one of those was an early model boxster S.

 

I came across a 2000 model manual boxster S with about 73,000km and first impressions, looked in very good condition and drove well. 

 

I called a reputable porsche mechanic to get a PPI done and to say the least, he was scathing as far as boxsters were concerned. In a nutshell he told me he has had many boxster clients with numerous issues IMS problems aside, i would potentially be up for big $$$. He did not rate the motors at all given the work he has done on them.

 

He went onto say he would never purchase one himself.

 

Given what he told me, i was put off to say the least and have cancelled the ppi at this stage. 

 

I know pelican have this article on the various issues: http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Boxster_Tech/13-ENGINE-Common_Engine_Failures/13-ENGINE-Common_Engine_Failures.htm

 

But was wanting some feedback here as to how accurate this really is and whether i may be taking too much of a risk getting something of that era. I know a few members on here own these, so interested in peoples experience and thoughts

Removed my comment as it added no value to this thread.

[Niko]

 

 

GOBSMACKED......I have had my 2001 S for 5 years and had no real dramas at all.

 

Apart from Digi Mouth who has had a bad run in his early Box I haven't heard of too many complaints on them.

 

Second professional opinion required.    

[withers]

 

 

GOBSMACKED......I have had my 2001 S for 5 years and had no real dramas at all.

 

Apart from Digi Mouth who has had a bad run in his early Box I haven't heard of too many complaints on them.

 

Second professional opinion required.    

 

A really good friend of mine bought a brand new 2000 986 S, err in 2000.  In the 13 years he owned the car it NEVER missed a beat. He put about 160,000km on the clock and apart from routine maintenance never had to spend a cent on his car. It was 100% reliable. On the outset of my starting my Porsche journey I asked him about cost of maintenance, he averaged spending around $800 per year on this car.

 

I drove it before he traded it in on his latest 'supercar'  and it drove like a new car.  It was in superb condition inside and out.

 

Had the timing been different, his car would probably have been in my garage!

 

Like the quote from Niko I added to my post -  I think you file this away in the back of your mind as 'extreme advice'  file it alongside 'worst case scenario' and 'sees the worst of this model of Porsche'    teeheeee 

[Caver]

Thanks, were there any other improvements on the motor from 2003 on?

I actually test drove a 2003 at one point and thought it was actually more responsive than the earlier models Ive tried (2000/2001 models)

 

Aimr75, yes, there were upgrades in 2000 and again in 2003.

 

Early engines had a small number of failures, due to cracked or slipped cylinder liners, which were resolved by a minor redesign in 2000.  Capacity was increased from 2.5 litre to 2.7 litre.

 

In 2003, the big change was adoption of Porsche's VarioCam variable intake-valve timing system, still another gift from big-brother 911. This contributed to modest increases in both power and fuel economy, but did less for torque. The 2.7-litre engine now claimed 228 horsepower, up 11. The S-model's 3.2-litre added eight ponies to reach 258.  So you are correct in your comment about extra responsivness.

 

In addition, the soft top was changed to include a glass rear window, plus one extra roof support hoop.  A glove compartment was introduced, Boot lids were electrically operated, updated steering wheel, reworked exhaust pipe and air intakes, front and side indicators were changed from amber to clear and rear indicators to translucent gray, bumpers were changed to a more defined chiselled appearance.  I also recall reading somewhere that the 'S' suspension package from a prior model was retained as the base model suspension.

 

So, in my humble opinion, if you are seeking a good Boxster, I would strive to get a 2003 model or later.  There are plenty around and quite a few with less than 100,000 kms on the clock.  Prices in Sydney vary from 28k - 40k.  "S" badge still command a premium and are a little harder to find.  Personally, I didn't want a "S", quite happy with the non badge.  The drive is exhilarating every time.  There are no situations on the roads where you can fully exploit the capabilities of the car legally, hence my satisfaction with the base model.  As a trade off, there are benefits with fuel consumption.

 

I plan to have the IMS bearing replaced at 100,000kms along with the clutch.

 

Doish and I have had many discussions around the differences between Boxsters and 911s.  Although he's definitely a 911 man, he respects the look of my car because when the roof is down, you get a brillant roadster look.

 

I rather suspect that the advice given by your Porsche mechanic was slightly biased, unbalanced and scared you unnecessarily.

 

My 20 cents worth.

[withers]

I also want to add aimr - I 100% know where you are coming from. In the end tho, I bought the newest Boxster, with the lowest km and the best possible service history I could find for my money.

 

I could have been banging on about a 964 for years and never had the guts to purchase one or crapping on about wanting a car exactly like RussR's Targa.. but in the end, I made a decision to go with what I thought would be the best buy for me - despite all the noise out there.  Now whilst that noise is in the back of my mind (IMS) I'm treating my car very well - ie I don't drive it for 5 mins to the shops like I did my old cars. I walk or ride the bike or I don't go to the shops!! I warm her up and I let her cool down a bit in the garage. I try to give her a good rev everytime I drive her to get that oil splash.

 

Obviously I can't talk about maintenance, reliability etc  as it's far too soon. 

 

So far I'm stoked with my car.  And it's not an S  and it doesnt go fast in a straight line - but the handling, the sound, the fun going thru the rev ranges is just brilliant and that steering!  This car is every bit a Porsche and its not about speed in a straight line - its a drivers car and a sports car. 

 

What I'm saying is - you either decide to save for that 993 Manual or you bite the bullet and put a Porsche in the garage now and enjoy it!

 

 

[Coastr]

Mechanics love to tell scary stories - it gives them gravitas and makes them look wise and trustworthy.  A mechanics advice is definitely more useful than internet advice.  Most people in most industries will do the same.  When it comes to premium brands people especially like to point out issues.

 

The truth is you can only get a true picture with large scale accurate data.  And that just doesn't exist, although the JD Power surveys in the US are quite instructive.  And in 2002, the Boxter came in no 2 behind the Z3 for 1998 model vehicles.  In 2006, they released the results of the 2002 models, and Porsche came in 2nd behind Lexus.

 

So the truth is that some Porsches have problems, and these get highlighted because of the schadenfreude involved.  The mechanic wouldnt buy a Boxster, but then I bet he wouldn't buy a Z4 or an SLK. or a S2000 for that matter.  Asking them what they would buy is instructive, because usually they say their pet car, one for which they have developed a blindspot.

 

Buy with your eyes open and buy with a contingency fund ready.  This applies to any used car.

[Niko]

Good comments Coastr

[SteveT]

I am only a short term Boxster owner also. Mine has been well, mine, for just over 3 months. I have put a little over 5,000 k's on the clock and loved every single metre of them. I had a service done when I first bought her as it hadn't been done for about 18 months. Mine is still a low k's car being a 2007 model that now has 33,500 on the odo. No issues at all from mine, I don't expect any but I do realise it is actually a sports car and stuff goes "boing" sometimes. Possibly. I did get a nice letter from Porsche last night advising that they have reduced parts prices across that board for cars under 15 years old by 25% so happy with that if I do need something fixed.

 

And sometimes I drive it like I stole it  

 

My humble opinion, make up your own mind. There are horror stories about all makes and models, I had a Golf with a DSG that was being weird, previously a bullet proof car in most people's minds but ask a dealer how much the car is worth with DSG. Not much as they are prone to failure and exy to fix. And NOTHING beats driving a Porsche with the roof down on a sunny day. No, not even that! A nice top down blast lasts soooo much longer!

[JustJames]

The interwebz have a lot to answer for.

 

On the plus side, it's easy to find out what a car's Achilles heel is.  On the minus side, reports of death are often somewhat exaggerated.

 

Is the M96 engine flawed?  Yes it is.

 

Is it so flawed as to make the cars something to avoid at all costs?  Heck no.

 

As per a previous thread, the failure rate was something like 3-10% depending on which version of the IMS bearing the car left the factory with.  And a ceramic bearing upgrade cuts that risk down to near enough zero.

 

Many good posts in this thread from people who live with these cars and have gone in with their eyes open.

[withers]

The interwebz have a lot to answer for.

 

On the plus side, it's easy to find out what a car's Achilles heel is.  On the minus side, reports of death are often somewhat exaggerated.

 

Is the M96 engine flawed?  Yes it is.

 

Is it so flawed as to make the cars something to avoid at all costs?  Heck no.

 

As per a previous thread, the failure rate was something like 3-10% depending on which version of the IMS bearing the car left the factory with.  And a ceramic bearing upgrade cuts that risk down to near enough zero.

 

Many good posts in this thread from people who live with these cars and have gone in with their eyes open.

 

Whilst the interwebz do cause hysteria as far as these cars go, in this case it was a Mechanic. I also spoke to a few P mechanics that gave me similar advice.  Some of them don't rebuild these M96 engines and don't like them. 

 

You aren't going to recommend what you can't fix yourself!

[tazzieman]

 Some of them don't rebuild these M96 engines and don't like them. 

 

 

Just wondering , who does rebuild them , and at what cost (used to be said a new engine was cheaper)?

Here's the type of work involved http://www.hartech.org/docs/buyers%20guide%20web%20format%20Jan%202008%20part%204.pdf

[withers]

Just wondering , who does rebuild them , and at what cost (used to be said a new engine was cheaper)?

Here's the type of work involved http://www.hartech.org/docs/buyers%20guide%20web%20format%20Jan%202008%20part%204.pdf

 

I know of a few that do like Phil Hearn and Autoart in Preston. But that's what I found out when doing some research  ie talking to these mechanics.  One of these mechanics spoke well of the M96 and the other was realistic in saying they see quite a few that do need rebuilding (of which they do do).  Maybe Spencer Harrison too? I can't remember..  I'm sure many know more than I do.

 

Autoart said on average budget $10,000 - 15k for a rebuild. Thats what I was told when asking about a 996. 

 

As we know, whipit had his engine rebuilt so mechanics are out there doing them. 

[TrevMcRev]

In my experience mechanics often have opinions like this somewhere around the brand they work on day in day out.

 

I think there has to be a bias, it comes with the territory.

 

Like if you are an oncologist, you probably see so many patients with cancer.

 

They don't get to see all the healthy people as well to balance out their their bias.

 

The mechanic who sees or hears of 3-10 failures doesn't see the other 90 odd happy motorists who don't have a problem!

[tazzieman]

My brother took his new 10 yr old Alfa to a crusty old mechanic yesterday. Asked him if he worked on Alfas.

Guy snaps "not if I can help it "

[Caver]

Airm75....you've got to look at this one....very low kms.....

 

http://www.carsales.com.au/dealer/details/Porsche-Boxster-2003/AGC-AD-14112905/?Cr=4

 

Just come on the market.  Knock 'em down a few grand for the IMS replacement!!!!  Very good price IMHO.

 

If I didn't have a car already, I'd be all over this one.

[_Tony]

Wow very low k's.. I just put a deposit on a 3.2 today subject to a ppi though! If it doesn't pan out I'm certainly still open to looking at boxsters. Loved how the '03 boxster S drove when I tried it

[Niko]

Airm75....you've got to look at this one....very low kms.....

 

http://www.carsales.com.au/dealer/details/Porsche-Boxster-2003/AGC-AD-14112905/?Cr=4

 

Just come on the market.  Knock 'em down a few grand for the IMS replacement!!!!  Very good price IMHO.

 

If I didn't have a car already, I'd be all over this one.

Nice find, Caver..   Good luck with yours Tony

[oldblade]

This is from experience unfortuneatly

I bought a 99 2.5 in 01 and had many years of great motoring but in 07 while driving normally I hear clunk clunk clunk the end

Engine gone at 130k ims failure now at the time not many people in the world had this issue so I got a second hand engine from PRT and it was a ripper the issue was that the car was now a third car cause during the time of repair we needed a car so I bought a new bmw for my wife to drive

After the engine was replaced it fan great but I started having issue aafter issue and it got to a point where we wwre scared to drive it

I spent so much money on it but it was never right and it finally got traded on our new boxster traded it with 137k and the ims failed on the drive to the dealeeship so I lost even more money

If anyone wants more details pm me