General thoughts on the 964

[Norm]

I wondering what the general thought is of the 964, both the 2 and the 4?

I like the clean lines, which in my opinion are in keeping with the original design of the car. And although I have never driven one, I like the thought of some creature comforts such as power steering, yet it's still a relatively simple car in that it is air cooled.

It was my plan to buy one and I wanted the 2 but very few for sale and in the end out of my budget.

I've since come to notice there isn't as much discussion about them. It's either earlier models up to the eighties or 993 and newer. Why is that? Is it because there doesn't appear to be as many around? Do people not like the 4? Is the handling not as good since its the first model with coil springs?

I'm keen to hear.

[Russ]

I love the design of them, they're like an impact bumper with all the plastic stuff to bring them 'up to date' (like a Mk1 golf cabrio we had in Australia in 93 with all the stuff to make it updated) and the first working air conditioning in a 911

 

i'd have one in a heart beat, but it'll be interesting to see what happens with values (I think they'll be staying where they are, if not going up)

[Kerry]

Hey Norm,

 

My 964 is an absolute beauty. OK, its an RS, but none the less, it looks like my 75 911, but is a whole lot surer-footed. I think a good clean 2 or 4 would be a sound investment, as well as an absolute pleasure to drive and polish.

I remember chasing a fellow member in his 964 4 up and then down a certain ski resort mountain (in the summer) and he certainly gave me a run for my (considerably more) money... ie: C4 = no slouch!

 

2c worth...

 

Kerry

[clutch-monkey]

class leader in my run group uses a 964. they are pretty damn good.

[Norm]

Is it then, that many weren't imported into Australia?? Most seem to be 4's and rest automatics, although there's a blue one on carsales at the moment for a reasonable price.. 

[clutch-monkey]

the 4's are not my thing at all.
were these released during a depression? would explain low numbers.

i think also people who own them don't tend to let them go..

[T-Man]

All the 4's are manual only.

I understand that the 4WD system is rather complex and requires deep pockets to repair should it start to fail.

Nonetheless, I have driven with a couple of 4's and I've been left hugely impressed in the agility and traction f the cars.

[wasserkuhl]

The C2 Version of the 964 is probably the hardest to find, but worth the search and wait.

 

The C4 did indeed have a complex 4WD system that came direct from the 959, which means that when they do go wrong they are rather expensive to put right. That said the C4 is still a lovely car and you just need to budget for regular maintenance and the possibility of an expensive repair. I feel that the premium asked and paid for a C2 probably equates to a C4 Plus any repair bills.

 

The 964 was the first version of the 911 to do away with Torsion bar suspension and as such it does ride and handle better than its predecessors. It is of course relatively heavier as well.

 

Early 964's (1989 and some 1990 Build) had issues with cylinder to crankcase sealing which resulted in some serious oil leaks. It appears that by now most have been repaired, however it is worth noting this issue and looking for evidence of this repair or factory recall in any propsective cars history.

 

Another item that can fail is the dual distributor drive belt, which can result in some expensive damage. There was a factory retro fit of a vent tube to exit ionic gas from the distributor(which was the cause of the rubber drive belts deterioration and eventual failure).

 

An Australian deleiverd C2 will of course be hard to find, noting that there are less 964's for sale than 993's at the moment.

 

Carsales yields only 1 C2 Manual :

 

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Porsche-911-Carrera-1990/SSE-AD-1130985/?Cr=1

 

Which reads and looks like a nice car. Noting the engine rebuild and clutch replacement as a bonus. It does have high km's however, buying on condition should mittigate any concerns here. The price asked is really quite attractive as well, with recent similar examples asking over 60k.

 

Whats wrong with the 964? Nothing really, it is just the first step of the 911 on its journey to become modern. Some say that it is heavier and less involving than the earlier cars. Having driven a couple of examples I still found them to be a very exciting car to drive with great driver involvement. Its nice to have an A/C system that works as well.

 

It is a must that if you were to have a 964 that you put Cup 1 wheels on it as it transforms the car and gives it a far more 'porsche' essence.

 

The blue one above is definitely worth a look.

[StevepGT3]

Hey Norm,

 

My 964 is an absolute beauty. OK, its an RS, but none the less, it looks like my 75 911, but is a whole lot surer-footed. I think a good clean 2 or 4 would be a sound investment, as well as an absolute pleasure to drive and polish.

I remember chasing a fellow member in his 964 4 up and then down a certain ski resort mountain (in the summer) and he certainly gave me a run for my (considerably more) money... ie: C4 = no slouch!

 

2c worth...

 

Kerry

Have to agree Kez I was right behind you on that one and was surprised how fast the supposed bad handling and understeering c4 was up and down the hill. At no stage did I will him to get his finger out.

[Danny]

interesting top, can someone answer this for me?

Whenever ive searched for a 964 on car sales i can never find a 1992 or 93 coupe for sale. There is a turbo for sale at the moment but i never seem to find a naturally aspirated coupe beyond 1990. Thoughts?

[JustJames]

As somebody has already said, the world was in a depression during the 964 era.  After the yuppie boom of the mid to late 80's, the world (and Porsche) went through lean times in the '90's.

 

Add to that, the 964 is perceived to fall into a bit of a dip in terms of desirability.  It's predecessor, the 3.2 Carrera is the ultimate incarnation of the first series of 911's.  And its successor, the 993 has the cachet of being the last aircooled 911 series.  So the poor 964 falls into a gap between them.

 

Correctly priced air cooled cars seem to sell quickly.  The only reason I can find for this is that people who want an air cooled 911 know exactly what they want, and are specific in terms of their requirements.  I think - and you will hear the swooshing sound of a sweeping generalisation - that many people who buy a water cooled 911 are people who are looking for a performance car, and have a wider choice set that includes M BMW's, AMG Merc's and S/RS Audis.

[wasserkuhl]

interesting top, can someone answer this for me?

Whenever ive searched for a 964 on car sales i can never find a 1992 or 93 coupe for sale. There is a turbo for sale at the moment but i never seem to find a naturally aspirated coupe beyond 1990. Thoughts?

 

I too have noticed this. I would have to suspect that there were very few post 1990 964's sold new by Porsche. It can only be verified by an enquiry with Porsche Australia on the exact numbers brought into the country.

 

I do know that, for example, BMW Australia had alot of E34 M5's that they were still selling as new cars in 1991 that had 1989 Build Dates.

 

So it is entirely possible that Porsche Australia bought a 'Job Lot' of 1989 and 1990 964's and then sold them over a 3 Year Period.

 

As James has mentioned, this particular period was during the end of a Labor Party being in power for some 14 Years, which was also the tail end of the 'recession we had to have'......... 

 

These cars sold in low numbers accross the board for the early 90's, right up until the introduction of the 996.

 

Sorry about the off topic rant, I am in the Midle of reading "The Australian Moment" which is a great commentary on Australian Economics by George Megalogenis.

 

Worth a read.

 

Anyway, Buy a 964 Manual C2, you wont regret it...

[Norm]

Well I'm settled with my 87 Carrera now, and more than happy. I was just curious because I, as we all do, keep an eye on the Porsche market.

I remember and felt the economic pain of that time, so I'm inclined to agree that it's simply low numbers that were bought in an sold in this country at the time. I guess this will keep their value up for the luck ones that do own one.

Nevertheless a helpful and informative thread!

[Simonoz]

Norm

You're getting some fine advice here from the PFA brains trust.

I reckon when buying a 964, simply buy on condition regardless of the derivative.

The 4wd system is very robust.

Its also very advanced (read expensive to repair now) for the time.

The later 993 and onwards systems became progressively simpler, which equates to cheaper, but not necessarily better.

I recall Warwick McKenzie who ran the Porsche drive days for years, had a Carrera 4 and loved it because of its technical superiority.

He and I had a lengthy conversation regarding the suspension set up needed to get the best from the 4wd system.

It would be worth finding out his advice if thats your direction.

If you found a really good 4 and set it up properly you would have a wonderful characterful car to enjoy.

I would always buy a 2 because unless its a turbo thats what i like.

That puts me in the majority, and as the collective rule the pricing, 2's are dearer.

But if I was you, I'd snap up a really good 4 and run rings around the 2's in the rain!

[Russ]

yeah I personally would still buy a 4 just for the rain abilities!

[Peter M]

Norm,

I'm in the market for an air cooled 911 and have been studying up!

Just to add to the above, the low sales of the 964 was an worldwide issue, not just in Australia. The other issue was that the competition had moved on too with the release of the Honda NSX for example. Consequently the 993 had to be a leap forward rather than just another incremental change and that model is often referred to as having saved the company from bankruptcy.

I tried to attach a PDF that shows a graph of how grim things were for Porsche in the early 90's but it's too big! Essentially the sales had fallen from around 25,000 per year in the mid 80's to less than 5,000 in 1991 and even less in 1992.

Yes, I like that blue 964 C2 too!

[hugh]

(The Boxster played a large role in saving Porsche too).

[withers]

That blue one is gorgeous!

If memory serves me correct Porsche only bought 17 964 Cabriolets into Australia. I did quite a bit of research as I nearly bought one. That's not many at all.

They (964s) seem to sell slowly too, a tip coupe c2 will sit around for months if its over the $40k mark. Manuals go fast if in good nik.

I drove a few 964s and found them to be a lovely balance between old and new! I prefer the look of the 964 over the 993. Stunning looking car saw a white one today and nearly walked into a lamp post looking at it

[Peter M]

A nice white one like this one? http://www.pcv.com.au/PorscheClubs/pc_victoria/pc_main.nsf/web/B88867B527091D58C1257B5600312F57#pagetop

It's been for sale for quite a while. Can't recall the km's though.

[Rossnall]

I'm by no means an expert, but at first glance, both cars in the links above seem quite nice, the only thing being the blue one's drivers seat seems a bit worn. Personally I'd consider both, but I'm not in the market yet.

[f3nr15]

interesting top, can someone answer this for me?

Whenever ive searched for a 964 on car sales i can never find a 1992 or 93 coupe for sale. There is a turbo for sale at the moment but i never seem to find a naturally aspirated coupe beyond 1990. Thoughts?

 

It took me three years (and a few PPIs) to find my '93 C2 - having followed the 964 market for years, I can tell you that in the past there's been a separate buyer's market for the late model C2 manual coupes. Perhaps because of the 964 RS factor, so they've always sold quickly after being advertised, and usually for a premium. My car came on to the market at $75K two years ago when Babalouie's '93 C2 coupe was advertised for $88K. Neither of us paid the asking price, but I know that mine wasn't far off. Then the 991 came out a few months later and all the prices took a tumble, although I've barely seen a late C2 manual coupe for sale since.

 

On my maiden voyage, I was almost horrified at how refined it felt compared with my '76 911. I almost wanted to give it back. That quickly dissipated over the next few rides when I realised that I wasn't actually fighting the car in turns, waiting for the tractor take-up when changing gears, struggling with archaic mechanical flaps for heating, or hearing the car's bones rattling over bumps. The day that I finally got my nerve up to put my foot down, any lingering doubts simply melted away 

 

It's a great car. It's not the oldest and rawest, or the newest and fastest, but the quintessential balance. To me, it was the final evolution of the classic 911, whereas the 993 was the transition to the modern. The visual cues from the driver seat are the same as what has come before - the interior layout, the analogue gauges, the torpedo tubes - but the quality of the components was the highest reached in these cars. Each 964 took 120 hours of assembly including a lot by hand, compared with 76 hours for the 993.

 

The driving feel is sublime - still a tail-happy light-weight car. Yes, heavier and more refined compared to the mid-years and SCs, but all in proportion - the idea of having that angry 3.6 in a less planted torsion-bar car gives me mini heart attacks.

 

So, all-in-all, very worthy of consideration if you're in the market for an air-cooled 911. I'd also have a targa, a cab, and a wide-body anniversary model in a heart-beat, but only because I've already got my C2 coupe 

[withers]

After Peter description above I think they become more popular!

Great stuff Peter

[Norm]

I agree! Well written Peter. I think the the 964 could well be the next classic.

[FlatSix]

The 964 does suffer from a bit of middle child syndrome but I think they are making a comeback of late. I have had mine for a year now and my only complaint is the A/C. While the A/C works much better than any previous 911 the 964 system is over-engineered and therefore expensive to repair. Other than that it's an absolute pleasure to drive.

[911barber]

It took me three years (and a few PPIs) to find my '93 C2 - having followed the 964 market for years, I can tell you that in the past there's been a separate buyer's market for the late model C2 manual coupes. Perhaps because of the 964 RS factor, so they've always sold quickly after being advertised, and usually for a premium. My car came on to the market at $75K two years ago when Babalouie's '93 C2 coupe was advertised for $88K. Neither of us paid the asking price, but I know that mine wasn't far off. Then the 991 came out a few months later and all the prices took a tumble, although I've barely seen a late C2 manual coupe for sale since.

 

On my maiden voyage, I was almost horrified at how refined it felt compared with my '76 911. I almost wanted to give it back. That quickly dissipated over the next few rides when I realised that I wasn't actually fighting the car in turns, waiting for the tractor take-up when changing gears, struggling with archaic mechanical flaps for heating, or hearing the car's bones rattling over bumps. The day that I finally got my nerve up to put my foot down, any lingering doubts simply melted away 

 

It's a great car. It's not the oldest and rawest, or the newest and fastest, but the quintessential balance. To me, it was the final evolution of the classic 911, whereas the 993 was the transition to the modern. The visual cues from the driver seat are the same as what has come before - the interior layout, the analogue gauges, the torpedo tubes - but the quality of the components was the highest reached in these cars. Each 964 took 120 hours of assembly including a lot by hand, compared with 76 hours for the 993.

 

The driving feel is sublime - still a tail-happy light-weight car. Yes, heavier and more refined compared to the mid-years and SCs, but all in proportion - the idea of having that angry 3.6 in a less planted torsion-bar car gives me mini heart attacks.

 

So, all-in-all, very worthy of consideration if you're in the market for an air-cooled 911. I'd also have a targa, a cab, and a wide-body anniversary model in a heart-beat, but only because I've already got my C2 coupe 

"It's a great car. It's not the oldest and rawest, or the newest and fastest, but the quintessential balance. To me, it was the final evolution of the classic 911, whereas the 993 was the transition to the modern"

 

the above quote describes the 964 well, I'de like one next to my sc anytime..