Whats for sale (in Australia ) and interesting Thread

[hugh]

1 minute ago, wangan said:

So if you've got identical cars. Say for example, the red 3.2 posted above. Lets put a price on it of 120k. For an identical UK import what would you pay? 

2 identical cars, I'd say discount is in the order of 20% as a guide. 

[MFX]

20% seems to be the norm, but it doesn't always make sense. A Hong Kong car will get the same hit as a UK car, without the implied rust issues (and there are plenty of rusty Aussie cars ).

The 'Aus Delivered' premium is not a rational one, it just is. I am happy to do my due diligence on a quality import, and save some cash. The discount will be about the same when you go to sell and while you own it, the experience is the same as an Aussie one  

[Fishcop]

21 minutes ago, hugh said:

2 identical cars, I'd say discount is in the order of 20% as a guide. 

There is a lovely UK delivered personal import 997 C4S cabriolet on CS at $80k - the next AU delivered equivalent is $120k.  So taking the CS markups and salesmanship out I'd say Hugh is spot on with the 20% discount.  It's a moot issue if it's your dream car.  But as we all know, most cars outlast their owners and get moved on at some point and trying to off load an import always seems to be a selling chore.  Unless it's a Lamborghini Miura

[symsy]

On 04/01/2021 at 09:26, MFX said:

20% seems to be the norm, but it doesn't always make sense. A Hong Kong car will get the same hit as a UK car, without the implied rust issues (and there are plenty of rusty Aussie cars ).

10-20 seems to be in most cases the unjustified hit .     Some ROW cars are just as good as ours and unconverted .  

Also some of the cars are restored as well and if not better than some of our restos.   

We have a very small DNA pool here and seems for the sake of the Aus del BS , we recycle runts of cars.

A good car is a good one and a bad  a shit fight regardless of where its delivered , especially when you are talking older cars.  History is nice but its whats happened in the last 5 years or maybe less that really counts in the mechanical realm and the last 10 years in terms of body work and rust.   

Keep a good car and at a beachside suburb for ten years  and it will present challenges in the ten years that follows , even if its Aus delivered

When you see an SC with 250-300k on it we look at it on merit yet a 996 at 160-200k seems terrible .. perspective is a funny thing that gets ruled by some fuzzy logic, that logic doesn't really get updated that often. I think if you are trying to secure resale , most are conservative but really the dollar per mile and smile is far better in an import almost always .

a fabricated govt taxation reality in my view shouldnt blur your vision if your trying to get into your first car or obtain your scarce jewel

[911]

That's exactly right. Life is short, as long as you're enjoying the car that's all that matters. 

Just got back into work today and have been reading figures regarding new cars. Costs have increased, supply reduced and therefore an overall drive in the sale price of new cars here in Aus. We'd expect a massive correction to the used car market in approx 1.5 years with very high depreciation levels, once we see the corrections from covid. That's just one aspect. I don't see any upside to classics over the next 3 or 4 years. My opinion of course. 

Knowing all this and alot of other variables, my head was telling me to wait a year or 2 before purchasing, because I'm very confident the market will drop, but at the same time, even if I lose 20 or 30%, at least I've enjoyed the car. Happy with my purchase, even if I've bought at the top!

[Dreamr]

6 hours ago, wangan said:

So if you've got identical cars. Say for example, the red 3.2 posted above. Lets put a price on it of 120k. For an identical UK import what would you pay? 

I personally wouldn't buy the UK car so I’m probably the wrong guy to ask. If I had to put a figure on it, I would say the UK equivalent would be worth maybe between $80k and $90k. I think anyone that quotes anything under 20% difference are kidding themselves. I would put it even more. The biggest issue is at resale time. There are a lot of people that “would buy a UK import” but come sale time, they are not buyers ... they have either already got a car or it’s just not the right time .. which leaves it sitting on the market for potentially a long time.

I don’t make the rules .. they are just there. I can’t reason why it works like this, it just does.

3 hours ago, wangan said:

Knowing all this and alot of other variables, my head was telling me to wait a year or 2 before purchasing, because I'm very confident the market will drop, but at the same time, even if I lose 20 or 30%, at least I've enjoyed the car. Happy with my purchase, even if I've bought at the top!

I had my air-cooled for 6 years and heard every year that they should wait till prices come down. They never did. I think you've done the right thing by just buying when you wanted a car and not trying to speculate on the market. Enjoy it and what happens, happens .. 😀

[Dalai]

1 hour ago, Dreamr said:

I had my air-cooled for 6 years and heard every year that they should wait till prices come down. They never did. I think you've done the right thing by just buying when you wanted a car and not trying to speculate on the market. Enjoy it and what happens, happens .. 😀

I bought my 3.2 coming onto 4 years ago with the same talk about it being at the top and bubble is about to burst then... If it does, the joy of owning my dream car these years far outweighs any loss of monetary value in my books! *

*84 Carrera Australian delivered bought with 178,000km and now at just over 190,000km - never selling but looking at CS I can't see losing money, in fact it's looking like I might have to up my agreed value again!

 

[911]

I know prices have held up, but I think things are different this time and I'm saying this even though I've bought.

I'll try break it down quickly. Let me start by saying this is not financial advice. Just my opinion working in economics.

The Federal Reserve is leading everyone believe that they're printing money, so you will go out and spend money and consume. This in turn drives property prices, classic cars, shares etc up, because everyone believes inflation is coming, but if you really look into what the FED is actually doing, they are not printing at all!
Quantitative easing is when the FED goes into the market and buys bonds from the banks to push down interest rates, people naturally think the FED prints money and gives them money to spend on things like classic cars, stocks for example to stimulate the economy.
They don't though! The FED issues bank reserves, this is not cash and it cant be spent, so it's an asset swap for the banks. i.e. give the FED their treasuries and in return get bank reserves.
NOTHING changes on their balance sheet.
It's actually a very neat trick that makes Joe blow think this will end in disaster and inflation is coming, so I better buy stocks or property now, because inflation will drive up the prices. It encourages stimulation of the economy without inflation.
When the FED finally gets permission to print money, which will take an act of congress in US, then we have to worry. For now the Federal reserve act forbids printing money, they just have everyone thinking that's what they're doing.

In layman's terms. Everything has been pushed up lately due to this. Stock market, classic cars, property etc. All because people think our currency is actually going to devalue. I.e it's better to have money invested, because cash will be worth less. In actual fact, we're realistically going to be fighting against deflation (similar to Japan's economy).

In my opinion, we are close to the top if not right at the top for classic cars, along with quite a few other assets. There might be another 6 months, or even longer, but a correction is inevitable.
I think everyone who's bought into cars thinking only on an investment basis is in for a bit of suprise!

Once they realise the holding costs are actually costing them more than what they're making we will see a dip, sooner or later.

I'm in my 60's, so for me I'm not looking to invest in my 911 for a financial return. For me it's all about enjoying the car. When it comes time to sell, if I sell at a loss, so be it. We have been very lucky over the last 20  years to be making money on P-cars. It's been a bonus, it should never be an expection.

Here's an interesting vid on QE if anyone's actually interested.

 

[Nicko82]

I am in the market for a 3.2 coupe or maybe a wide body Targa. Maybe an SC as well. Must be RHD otherwise open to look at most. If anyone is thinking of selling or knows of one that is available, please PM me.

[WGA]

11 hours ago, wangan said:

I know prices have held up, but I think things are different this time and I'm saying this even though I've bought.

I'll try break it down quickly. Let me start by saying this is not financial advice. Just my opinion working in economics.

The Federal Reserve is leading everyone believe that they're printing money, so you will go out and spend money and consume. This in turn drives property prices, classic cars, shares etc up, because everyone believes inflation is coming, but if you really look into what the FED is actually doing, they are not printing at all!
Quantitative easing is when the FED goes into the market and buys bonds from the banks to push down interest rates, people naturally think the FED prints money and gives them money to spend on things like classic cars, stocks for example to stimulate the economy.
They don't though! The FED issues bank reserves, this is not cash and it cant be spent, so it's an asset swap for the banks. i.e. give the FED their treasuries and in return get bank reserves.
NOTHING changes on their balance sheet.
It's actually a very neat trick that makes Joe blow think this will end in disaster and inflation is coming, so I better buy stocks or property now, because inflation will drive up the prices. It encourages stimulation of the economy without inflation.
When the FED finally gets permission to print money, which will take an act of congress in US, then we have to worry. For now the Federal reserve act forbids printing money, they just have everyone thinking that's what they're doing.

In layman's terms. Everything has been pushed up lately due to this. Stock market, classic cars, property etc. All because people think our currency is actually going to devalue. I.e it's better to have money invested, because cash will be worth less. In actual fact, we're realistically going to be fighting against deflation (similar to Japan's economy).

In my opinion, we are close to the top if not right at the top for classic cars, along with quite a few other assets. There might be another 6 months, or even longer, but a correction is inevitable.
I think everyone who's bought into cars thinking only on an investment basis is in for a bit of suprise!

 

 

The forthcoming correction to which you refer arrived in Europe 18-12months ago. Prices dropped dramatically and have pretty much stayed there since. To give you an idea, I recently sold a 997.2 GT3 RS with only 15,000kms on the clock for $20,000 euro less than what it owed me. I am just about to sell my absolutely pristine 964 RS and will lose around 30K euro compared to what I bought it for 5-6 years ago. Standard 964s are holding well as are 88-89 wide body 3.2s. But most others are not.

[Turra]

13 hours ago, wangan said:

I know prices have held up, but I think things are different this time and I'm saying this even though I've bought.

I'll try break it down quickly. Let me start by saying this is not financial advice. Just my opinion working in economics.

The Federal Reserve is leading everyone believe that they're printing money, so you will go out and spend money and consume. This in turn drives property prices, classic cars, shares etc up, because everyone believes inflation is coming, but if you really look into what the FED is actually doing, they are not printing at all!
Quantitative easing is when the FED goes into the market and buys bonds from the banks to push down interest rates, people naturally think the FED prints money and gives them money to spend on things like classic cars, stocks for example to stimulate the economy.
They don't though! The FED issues bank reserves, this is not cash and it cant be spent, so it's an asset swap for the banks. i.e. give the FED their treasuries and in return get bank reserves.
NOTHING changes on their balance sheet.
It's actually a very neat trick that makes Joe blow think this will end in disaster and inflation is coming, so I better buy stocks or property now, because inflation will drive up the prices. It encourages stimulation of the economy without inflation.
When the FED finally gets permission to print money, which will take an act of congress in US, then we have to worry. For now the Federal reserve act forbids printing money, they just have everyone thinking that's what they're doing.

In layman's terms. Everything has been pushed up lately due to this. Stock market, classic cars, property etc. All because people think our currency is actually going to devalue. I.e it's better to have money invested, because cash will be worth less. In actual fact, we're realistically going to be fighting against deflation (similar to Japan's economy).

In my opinion, we are close to the top if not right at the top for classic cars, along with quite a few other assets. There might be another 6 months, or even longer, but a correction is inevitable.
I think everyone who's bought into cars thinking only on an investment basis is in for a bit of suprise!

Once they realise the holding costs are actually costing them more than what they're making we will see a dip, sooner or later.

I'm in my 60's, so for me I'm not looking to invest in my 911 for a financial return. For me it's all about enjoying the car. When it comes time to sell, if I sell at a loss, so be it. We have been very lucky over the last 20  years to be making money on P-cars. It's been a bonus, it should never be an expection.

Here's an interesting vid on QE if anyone's actually interested.

 

Thanks for explaining this so thoroughly. I didn’t need that 20 minutes of my life anyway. The thread says “what’s for sale.....” not why are some people prepared to take risks when others are not?” That’s all the oxygen I am going to give yours and others lengthy diatribes on the economy, foolishness, geography and your philosophy. Get back to the subject of what’s for sale or let the thread die FFS. 

[DJM]

Always fascinates me that the Porsche community is so fixated on trying to predict future values but most of us daily drive late model cars that depreciate like a rock (Audi being my favourite....) and no one seems to care.  Worrying about depreciation ruins the ownership experience of any asset IMO.

[JLD]

36 minutes ago, DJM said:

Always fascinates me that the Porsche community is so fixated on trying to predict future values but most of us daily drive late model cars that depreciate like a rock (Audi being my favourite....) and no one seems to care.  Worrying about depreciation ruins the ownership experience of any asset IMO.

As a buyer, I quite like depreciation. As a seller, not so much

[wilson59]

1 hour ago, Turra said:

Thanks for explaining this so thoroughly. I didn’t need that 20 minutes of my life anyway. The thread says “what’s for sale.....” not why are some people prepared to take risks when others are not?” That’s all the oxygen I am going to give yours and others lengthy diatribes on the economy, foolishness, geography and your philosophy. Get back to the subject of what’s for sale or let the thread die FFS. 

Well said . Thanks 

[Dreamr]

3 hours ago, Turra said:

Thanks for explaining this so thoroughly. I didn’t need that 20 minutes of my life anyway. The thread says “what’s for sale.....” not why are some people prepared to take risks when others are not?” That’s all the oxygen I am going to give yours and others lengthy diatribes on the economy, foolishness, geography and your philosophy. Get back to the subject of what’s for sale or let the thread die FFS. 

What happened here mate .. get out on the wrong side of the bed this morning??

You should be ashamed at this response! .. what gives you the right or even the thought pattern that says that it’s OK to berate someone that is involved in this community?

Do you think that this is the first thread that has ever gone off topic?

I personally don’t really understand what he was talking about, nor did I read his comment in its entirety ... but I would NEVER EVER put someone down for getting involved in a discussion on a public or even a private forum. Different story if he was trying to sell Mixmasters on a Porsche forum

Feel free to not “waste” your 20 minutes reading it and as far as I’m concerned, you certainly shouldn’t waste yours or my time responding in such a down putting manner.

You should be ashamed for your response! Feel free to offer an apology to @wangan .. or not .. whatever helps you sleep at night.

[symsy]

May I suggest a worthy Porsche investment strategy , buy as many as you can, sample them all if possible, buy as early as you can in life , because as you get older,  for some weird reason it seems much harder to get the exciting tingles in the body and the horsepower/dollars needed to lift the corner of the mouth to a big cheesy smile seems to increases significantly.

The governments will come and go and the dollar will rise and fall, the house markets will always be trying to overtake that strategic decision you made to buy a car, but I suggest just press that accelerator harder and it will be come a distant thought.

How do I know this , I have facts , I have all the data , my 25 year 993  investment chart  $247k in , nearly sold out at 140k , nearly sold out in a crisis at 80K,  merger and acquisition 1 and 2 (2 divorces ) car/stock was revalued by 50% downwards. Current position today .. ooh maybe $247 ...  P/E Petrol/Excitement ratio still strong , GO pedal that scares me is still working.  Dividends - Well what can I say the  cars still winking at me when I look back at it and smiles when I open the garage door.

Profit and Investment , were two new additional measuring words added at some point in the Porsche enthusiast ownership dictionary , maybe it should have just been left  at Enjoyment

[firstone]

Hey Steve, I get that wink and smile from mine too. Thought i was crazy. 😃

Your white turbo has it in spades though eh.

I'm 25k into a 3.2 boxster, depreciation to probs 17 on a good day. Can't see me selling it really. Porsche make a fabulous drivers car.

 

[Turra]

Sorry I should have added a couple of smiley face emojies. My bad. 🙂 🙂 .... oh and check this out - is it fair value?

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/1985-porsche-911-carrera-manual/SSE-AD-6968005/?Cr=0

 

 

[KGB]

It’s fair value if you want to put it in a glass case and sell it for $350k in 15 years...but that’s ‘investment’ not Porsche ownership.

Nice ‘get out of jail’ too btw! 😂😇🤣😳💰😤👅

[Dreamr]

8 minutes ago, Turra said:

Sorry I should have added a couple of smiley face emojies. My bad. 🙂 🙂 .... oh and check this out - is it fair value?

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/1985-porsche-911-carrera-manual/SSE-AD-6968005/?Cr=0

 

 

Yeah .. so should have I .. 😐😐

In answer to your question .. no. Don’t see value there. Grossly overpriced.

[Turra]

Haha!, thanks @KGB

I really like the forum, particularly looking at the technical threads. Like everything though, you do have to decide how much time you can give to so many different platforms. I like the buy and sell as sometimes you see cars that you hadn't picked up on, sometimes opinions and technical thoughts about those cars is valuable. I don't mean to be rude, but am considered fairly "cut-through" by some people. If someone is offended by that, I guess I am sorry - sort of. It might make them think a little about what they are posting next time also though and build value in the valuable Porsche community we all enjoy so much. Unfortunately, if you subscribe to something, you get EVERYTHING, thats how it is. Thats how I am. If you don't like it, you can't switch it off though. 😞 Soz, not my platform. Sorry for wasting 90 seconds reading my response 😘 

[Dreamr]

12 minutes ago, Turra said:

Haha!, thanks @KGB

I really like the forum, particularly looking at the technical threads. Like everything though, you do have to decide how much time you can give to so many different platforms. I like the buy and sell as sometimes you see cars that you hadn't picked up on, sometimes opinions and technical thoughts about those cars is valuable. I don't mean to be rude, but am considered fairly "cut-through" by some people. If someone is offended by that, I guess I am sorry - sort of. It might make them think a little about what they are posting next time also though and build value in the valuable Porsche community we all enjoy so much. Unfortunately, if you subscribe to something, you get EVERYTHING, thats how it is. Thats how I am. If you don't like it, you can't switch it off though. 😞 Soz, not my platform. Sorry for wasting 90 seconds reading my response 😘 

That was so much nicer ... see, you do have it in you 😅

Just for the record .. nothing personal here. Still happy to meet up sometime and go for a drive. Just don’t see the need for down putting comments .. from anyone!

Here’s hoping we can stay friends .. 

[cafe_racer]

$90k for an import LHD to RHD conversion. 2.2 911E. Guess that answers a bit around the import discount.  Personally I think it’s a good buy at $90k! 

[hugh]

If the pandemic has taught me anything, its that Americans love posting their own youtube "opinion" infomercials as if they are a credible and reliable source of information. PFA has been the one place I've been able to escape from the SM BS that seems to have taken over everywhere else. 

 

8 minutes ago, cafe_racer said:

$90k for an import LHD to RHD conversion. 2.2 911E. Guess that answers a bit around the import discount.  Personally I think it’s a good buy at $90k! 

98.5k + buyers premium. 

[Philbee]

Just glad to see a happy ending to the banter above... nice one boys!! 👍