Tit Posted 21April, 2015 Report Share Posted 21April, 2015 Yep. I know. I was speculating that local motors is who Michel was thinking of... Local motors is crowd sourced, not crowd funded. There is a distinct difference. They have tried some crowdfunding for other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew F Posted 21April, 2015 Report Share Posted 21April, 2015 Here's another case study. Slightly different scenario I know, but you'll get the gist. I'm involved with a small group of people who have over 100 years of combined experience in vehicle design. In between work and other commitments we've spent the best part of 5 years designing a hypercar. I've probably invested over 500 hours in this project so far. Think konnigsegg, Zonda, etc. In our business model we've estimated a capital requirement of a just over couple of million dollars to build a fully functional prototype for evaluation. The car doesn't even have a name yet. We know it simply as AAx. We're up to AA4 now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeM Posted 21April, 2015 Report Share Posted 21April, 2015 I can't see any value putting $50 or $2000 into a car that I don't own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevMcRev Posted 21April, 2015 Report Share Posted 21April, 2015 My experience of crowdfunding tells me most funds are raised in the area of pre-sales, which is great if you're producing a new product for sale. The funded is happy because they validated their idea, and through pre-orders now has the capital to make it happen. The investor is normally driven by cheaper than general release prices, early access before general release sales, exclusive versions not available for general release, etc, but at the end of the day, the reward to an early investor is usually above the value they paid. Sure some campaigns offer low-level support, like stickers, t-shirts etc, which still have a reward usually still at least of or above the investment, but some will throw a few bucks at things just because they want to see it happen. I am struggling to join the dots between this and funding a build. It does sound more like raising capital through equity in the company building the cars is something people might invest in. Good luck, can't hurt to try! I sure would if I were trying to bring a new product to existence. You never know...maybe make the kickstarter goal $1m and the investment $200K and the backer gets a car that would otherwise cost them $250K. 5 backers hits your goal, you get funded and go build your first 5 cars. You might pre-sell 20 cars. I'm in for a t-shirt though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel Posted 21April, 2015 Report Share Posted 21April, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboT Posted 21April, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 21April, 2015 Here's another case study. Slightly different scenario I know, but you'll get the gist. I'm involved with a small group of people who have over 100 years of combined experience in vehicle design. In between work and other commitments we've spent the best part of 5 years designing a hypercar. I've probably invested over 500 hours in this project so far. Think konnigsegg, Zonda, etc. In our business model we've estimated a capital requirement of a just over couple of million dollars to build a fully functional prototype for evaluation. The car doesn't even have a name yet. We know it simply as AAx. We're up to AA4 now. Would love to know more about that Steve sounds interesting and your investment projects are very real. The beauty of using p-car as a base and the mirade of components already proven and developed is that a lot of the development ax you would know has already been done. It make the entry level to development a lot more assessable, which is obviously why so many can build their own cars. Moving up to small scale production is the next step! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew F Posted 22April, 2015 Report Share Posted 22April, 2015 Would love to know more about that Steve sounds interesting and your investment projects are very real. The beauty of using p-car as a base and the mirade of components already proven and developed is that a lot of the development ax you would know has already been done. It make the entry level to development a lot more assessable, which is obviously why so many can build their own cars. Moving up to small scale production is the next step! In reality, it's more of a design study and less of an attempt at buildin cars. That would require funds in the order of who knows. Cost to develop a new platform from an existing one and get it into production can be around 700M dollars these days. But we needed to factor small run production in, to a lesser extent. It's more about selling our services as a design house. Jobs are getting harder to get. For me, I'm a stay at home designer these days. But a few of the guys still have plenty of years left. All of the modeling so far looks good, but we can't wait to see the full size prototype body in a real colour. We've done simulated dynamic testing on scale models. Full size foam model will be sent to the UK for physical wind tunnel testing. Hoping to sign an agreement with a major European engine tuner for loan of 5 engines, and another for transaxle assemblies for the driveline study. We just need to make A fit B and put it all in C. How does a mid mounted V10TT diesel hybrid coupled to an 8 speed trans (similar concept to pdk) and all wheel drive and steer sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel Posted 22April, 2015 Report Share Posted 22April, 2015 U gave m e a woodie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboT Posted 22April, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 22April, 2015 ^ what Michael said. Wow and well done. Sounds amazing. Inspirational to hear on PFA that others are trying push the boundaries as well. Would love to see more when you are ready to share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tit Posted 22April, 2015 Report Share Posted 22April, 2015 Wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
09ELF Posted 22April, 2015 Report Share Posted 22April, 2015 Lets crowd fund the development of a carbon kit (full carbon, none of this single layer carbon on glass). As part of the the funding you will receive 1 full kit. Front end - full carbon back dated wide body Carbon doors (optional) Carbon front and rear bars Metal rear arches Once its done, and as part of the funding a company will also be establised under porsheforum australia and we sell it to the yanks and poms. All profit goes to charity. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel Posted 22April, 2015 Report Share Posted 22April, 2015 still got a woodie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboT Posted 22April, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 22April, 2015 still got a woodiewell hold still and we can wrap some carbon fibre around that bad boy and Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 22April, 2015 Report Share Posted 22April, 2015 Why leave the rear arches metal? Why not a full quarter panel and roof panel in carbon (that's what singer does). Make it a full kit that can convert a cab or targa into a coupe as well. They'll fly out the door. The only charity it needs to support is 'save the old Porsches' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboT Posted 22April, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 22April, 2015 Why leave the rear arches metal? Why not a full quarter panel and roof panel in carbon (that's what singer does). Make it a full kit that can convert a cab or targa into a coupe as well. They'll fly out the door. The only charity it needs to support is 'save the old Porsches' unfortunately the sticking point might be the lack of old porsches.... Carbon panels are one thing. Carbon roofs, pricy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevMcRev Posted 22April, 2015 Report Share Posted 22April, 2015 unfortunately the sticking point might be the lack of old porsches.... Carbon panels are one thing. Carbon roofs, pricy Don't know... I think carbon roofs will be a pittance compared to the price gap between cabs and coupes... I've been seriously looking at sticking a roof on a cab/targa. I figure if you're gonna be hotrodding the sh*t out of it anyway, what's the difference. In some models at the moment a cab can be had for $20-30K less than a coupe...that should buy a lot of roof. If it's carbon - great!, fibreglass - good, steel - well that's all the expensive coupes are anyhow...so that's just fine too! Also solves the lack of base stock issue...not too many cab/targas selling within hours of listing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel Posted 22April, 2015 Report Share Posted 22April, 2015 unfortunately the sticking point might be the lack of old porsches.... Carbon panels are one thing. Carbon roofs, pricy In the overall - really? COVIN could surely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboT Posted 22April, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 22April, 2015 Don't know... I think carbon roofs will be a pittance compared to the price gap between cabs and coupes... I've been seriously looking at sticking a roof on a cab/targa. I figure if you're gonna be hotrodding the sh*t out of it anyway, what's the difference. In some models at the moment a cab can be had for $20-30K less than a coupe...that should buy a lot of roof. If it's carbon - great!, fibreglass - good, steel - well that's all the expensive coupes are anyhow...so that's just fine too! Also solves the lack of base stock issue...not too many cab/targas selling within hours of listing. You guys know of any one that could build a cf roof? The issue as I understand it is the cost and enginnerring that would need to go into cf that is used as a structural piece like a roof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clutch-monkey Posted 22April, 2015 Report Share Posted 22April, 2015 There is a guy in Melbourne who does roofs for other cars, and a few mobs overseas does roof skins. Several track 911s started out as cabriolets and were converted to coupe, for the extra bracing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 22April, 2015 Report Share Posted 22April, 2015 If you watch the singer videos where he goes into detail, he talks about how the carbon roof is bonded to the car. There isn't that much bracing in a roof - if you look at a bare one underneath its mostly skin. Similarly the c-pillars on a Porsche coupe aren't that big. It's the tensile strength of the steel that gives the coupe the rigidity - if you stand on the roof of one it would easily dent. As carbon fibre is stiffer than steel someone who knew what they were doing could produce a quarter panel/roof set that would give lightness at the rear of the car, extra stiffness and a lower centre of gravity. If that cost $20k it's peanuts compared with having to find a decent donor coupe in the first place. And imagine how horn it - roof would look in bare carbon like an M6. For more things like this read through the thread on pelican where the guy is restoring a 959 which used composite panels including the roof and quarters. Those guys read up and learnt how to replicate that technology, and arguably carbon fibre production is better known now than Kevlar composites. The new 7 series is going to be a combined carbon/aluminium frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clutch-monkey Posted 23April, 2015 Report Share Posted 23April, 2015 With track cars I guess it's less of an issue- you'd have a roll cage anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboT Posted 23April, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 23April, 2015 If you watch the singer videos where he goes into detail, he talks about how the carbon roof is bonded to the car.There isn't that much bracing in a roof - if you look at a bare one underneath its mostly skin. Similarly the c-pillars on a Porsche coupe aren't that big. It's the tensile strength of the steel that gives the coupe the rigidity - if you stand on the roof of one it would easily dent.As carbon fibre is stiffer than steel someone who knew what they were doing could produce a quarter panel/roof set that would give lightness at the rear of the car, extra stiffness and a lower centre of gravity. If that cost $20k it's peanuts compared with having to find a decent donor coupe in the first place. And imagine how horn it - roof would look in bare carbon like an M6.For more things like this read through the thread on pelican where the guy is restoring a 959 which used composite panels including the roof and quarters. Those guys read up and learnt how to replicate that technology, and arguably carbon fibre production is better known now than Kevlar composites. The new 7 series is going to be a combined carbon/aluminium frame.I am going to do more research on this as i am sure it is possible. I think Singer are just doing the flat bits not the pillars so the end result is effectively decorative/rain shield, not structural. The others you talk about are a million dollar car or a high volumne production car. Anything is possible, but i am not sure yet whether the figures will stack up on a low volume production, but will look into this and let you know if we manage to make this happen.Also remember the cheapest Cabs on calessales right now are $40K. So plus your $20 roof and all of the additional labour to install it and you are more that the current cost of a complete car (when you can find them admittedly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboT Posted 23April, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 23April, 2015 With track cars I guess it's less of an issue- you'd have a roll cage anyway?Had a good chat to Autohaus yesterday. They have seen a massive decline in people wanting to spend money on track cars. The money involved is amazing (they talked about $60K per event after you have spend $250k building the car!). So whilst having a roll cage option might be an option, there doesn't seem to be a market for a track car of the quality we are thinking and to be honest the performance numbers will never be there compared to a GT3 or suped up Caymen. No, what we are imagining is a lux road car, so all standards need to meet those of normal road cars unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clutch-monkey Posted 23April, 2015 Report Share Posted 23April, 2015 I have a roll cage in some of my road cars- the bracing and protection is worth it. 60k per event, you'd be thinking of targa Tasmania maybe.. Not normal track events. Even Bathurst historics is less than a tenth of that iirc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboT Posted 23April, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 23April, 2015 I have a roll cage in some of my road cars- the bracing and protection is worth it. 60k per event, you'd be thinking of targa Tasmania maybe.. Not normal track events. Even Bathurst historics is less than a tenth of that iircI am talking Cup car races and the like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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