$30,000 for a new engine?

[enjin33r]

I'd welcome some insight

After many years' hard use, and I mean very hard, my Carrera started making unhappy noises. I've no complaint, it lasted far longer than I had expected to.

The engine is out, dismantled, and everything is really tired. I expected a bill of around $12,000.00 to $15,000.00 to restore it. Instead, I'm looking at a quotation of $24,000.00 to take it back basically to standard, and add another $6,000.00 if I want cams, 3.4 conversion, decent valve springs and porting.

Perhaps I'm out of touch, so I would appreciate insight and suggestions

[jnr356]

seems excessive,must be alot of carnage

i'd get a 2nd opinion,try giving spencer at harrisons rrr a call on 03 9758 1411

[Spence]

You need to let us know exactly what is being done for the 24K but to me it sounds about right for a thorough rebuild, new P&Cs, heads recoed, valves, rod bolts, studs, cams, split case new big end bearings etc, ie, not just a top end. Sorry but $12,000.00 to $15,000.00 is unrealistic.

[enjin33r]

the quotation includes pistons, sleeves, all main bearings, big end and intershaft bearings and gears, all seals, all chains, guides, - lock, stock and barrel from top to bottom, and about 80 hours labour

is 80 hours reasonable and what is a reasonable hourly rate?

[PCM911T]

80 hours to build an engine? That's 2 weeks full time! I'd follow the lead above to Spencer Harrison or seek other quotes. Also look at an Excellence Magazine, it could be cheaper to import a rebuilt engine from the US. I have another forum friend who just imported a 2.5 RSR engine from the US (airfreight) for $25,000. Excludes installation costs of course.

[Spence]

If money is an issue and you don't want to go the whole hog you do have options.

The 3.2 is a very strong engine, I would highly doubt you would need to crack the case at all unless it needs a reseal.

I've never seen a 3.2 crank fail and people run them to crazy hp figures, there is daily driver 3.2 going around with 800hp, has been for about 10 years and has never had the case opened.

Often 3.2 piston and barrels can be reused, have them professionally measured to see if they're within spec, the may just need a clean up and new rings.

Your heads will no doubt need doing, valve guides are a 3.2's weakness, shop around and send them off or look for some re-coed ones, they often come up for sale, for example:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/new-zealand-australia/524126-3-2-heads.html

Cams will need replacing more than likely but they're not expensive.

Shops will more than likely suggest new replacement parts for everything, it's easier for them and they make a cut.

Do your research, Pelican Part's engine rebuilding forum is a wealth of knowledge:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/

You'll also find a lot of info in their 911 forum, sign up and search for 3.2 rebuilds, there is also an Australian section, ask for recommended shops.

Often you will find great deals on re conditioned heads, new P&Cs, Cams etc in the Classifieds too.

Sorry Moderators, it looks like I am pushing Pelican Parts Forum, it's just had to dismiss when it comes to these cars.

If you get really stuck, shoot me a PM and I'll give you a buzz, I know a fair bit about the 3.2.

Spence

[jnr356]

Shops will more than likely suggest new replacement parts for everything, it's easier for them and they make a cut

Spence

i find this comment offensive,not all repairers are like that

[Spence]

I said 'more than likely' and I didn't mean it in a negative way, I own a business too and know that if I was in the same position I would rather just replace everything with new, I wouldn't want to be wasting my time reconditioning or waiting for reconditioned parts to come back.

[enjin33r]

thanks for the input and suggestions;

I've found that it is possible to buy new or nearly new engines from reputable people in the USA for $21,000 - $25,000

at this price I would be buying a 3.8 with cams, and direct to head throttle bodies - 300 - 350 hp

In germany Albert has 3.2 engines, rebuilt, for 8,250 euro, say around $14,000

see http://www.albertweb.de/fahrzeugkatalog/911/911-motor/911-carrera-32-l-at-motor3.html

the prices I've been given include new rods, lineboring the block which is out of true, new barrels, pistons and cams so all in all, it does seem to be reasonable after all. Thank you all for your input.

[Spence]

thanks for the input and suggestions;

I've found that it is possible to buy new or nearly new engines from reputable people in the USA for $21,000 - $25,000

at this price I would be buying a 3.8 with cams, and direct to head throttle bodies - 300 - 350 hp

In germany Albert has 3.2 engines, rebuilt, for 8,250 euro, say around $14,000

see http://www.albertweb.de/fahrzeugkatalog/911/911-motor/911-carrera-32-l-at-motor3.html

the prices I've been given include new rods, lineboring the block which is out of true, new barrels, pistons and cams so all in all, it does seem to be reasonable after all. Thank you all for your input.

Just really double check these shops you're tinking about on Pelican, there are a few very shady operators, search 'motor meister' for some nightmare stories. There are some shops that do amazing work like, Super Tec : http://www.supertecperformance.com.

The problem is warranty, what happens if the engine lets go 20km down the road? This happened to a friend who imported 2 boat engines recently, both spewed oil on the first run, the shop claimed they were fine when they left... Even if a shop backs up a warranty and you have an issue during the break in period, how will they help you?

One other proint to remember is, a 964/993 based 3.8 is not a direct bolt in, requires a fair amount of work. It would also need an engine management system and some time over here being tuned on a dyno with our fuel and atmospheric conditions. You would also need to get any replacement engine through RTA, a 3.2 swap wouldn't be too hard, anything modified would be a total pain in the ass, your 3.8 swap would require an engineers certificate, upgrading of the brakes to whatever the model of the car was the engine came out of. Also getting it through sound tests and emissions would require you to modify a 964/993 exhaust system as it wont fit your car or fabricating a system. Your car will also be worth a lot less when it comes time to sell it if the numbers don't match up.

I don't mean to be a downer but you gotta factor these things in.

[jnr356]

exactly,

if something goes wrong warranty can get real messy

[Guest vas930]

Yes dont rush it. You can buy from the States as I have done in the past. But that was for an 800hp Pro Stock engine that you just cant get in Aust. For something stock or close to local build/backup is a huge advantage. If it was me,get someone local to have a good look first. eg Spence. Loui G ect. If you import and things go bad it can all become a nightmare. Just saying. Good Luck with it. Vas.

[PCM911T]

Enjin33R any progress? A final thought if not - contact John Shingleton 911 Registrar with the Porsche Club NSW thru their website. He might be able to advise on reputable shops in Sydney. You should also know that he is the retired MD of Jaguar Rover Australia, owns two 911s and is very active around the classic race scene worldwide.

[Spence]

Yes dont rush it. You can buy from the States as I have done in the past. But that was for an 800hp Pro Stock engine that you just cant get in Aust. For something stock or close to local build/backup is a huge advantage. If it was me,get someone local to have a good look first. eg Spence. Loui G ect. If you import and things go bad it can all become a nightmare. Just saying. Good Luck with it. Vas.

Hey Vas, the poster is in Syd, I'm in Melbourne.

Bob Whyms has a good reputation up there: http://www.bwaauto.com.au/

Would love to see your 930 at some stage too, I'm big into turbos, I have a GT35 hanging off the back of my 911.

[Guest vas930]

Hey Vas, the poster is in Syd, I'm in Melbourne.

Bob Whyms has a good reputation up there: http://www.bwaauto.com.au/

Would love to see your 930 at some stage too, I'm big into turbos, I have a GT35 hanging off the back of my 911.

[Guest vas930]

Yes sorry Spence got a bit lost. Hope it works out for him. As for my turbo, its in getting a new paint job and gen external resto. Hope to have it back in about a week. Only had this one for six weeks but looking for someone to look after it,servicing ect. Maybe you can help me out. Think you may have done some good work for my old mate Barney Hogan?

[enjin33r]

thanks for all the input and collective wisdom, much appreciated.

The decision is to rebuild my original engine with decent rods (Carillo or Pauter, any input welcome) and 3.4l pistons and barrels (Mahle with Mahle pistons or Nickies with JE pistons)

Possibly go to twin plugs with electronic ignition, maybe using 3.0l heads for better gas flow

Chuck the original throttle body and the rather questionable plenum set up and replace it with individual throttle bodies direct to head.

Maybe incorporate a 993 plenum with variable length inlet

I already have SSI headers and free flow exhaust, might sell my ones and go up one size

Has anyone installed direct to head throttle bodies here yet?

Are there any ideas about which cams to use?

So that little lot will probably blow the budget right out of the water . . . . .

Your ideas and suggestions are most welcome thanks

[Spence]

Yes sorry Spence got a bit lost. Hope it works out for him. As for my turbo, its in getting a new paint job and gen external resto. Hope to have it back in about a week. Only had this one for six weeks but looking for someone to look after it,servicing ect. Maybe you can help me out. Think you may have done some good work for my old mate Barney Hogan?

Sorry I don't know who Barney Hogan is, I'm not Spencer Harris if that's what you think, we just share the same first name! As far as shops go I have been toa lot of them in Melbourne and my favourite by far is Nine Plus, ask for Stuart, noting is too much trouble and no BS. I do my work myself, these cars are very simple...

[Spence]

thanks for all the input and collective wisdom, much appreciated.

The decision is to rebuild my original engine with decent rods (Carillo or Pauter, any input welcome) and 3.4l pistons and barrels (Mahle with Mahle pistons or Nickies with JE pistons)

Possibly go to twin plugs with electronic ignition, maybe using 3.0l heads for better gas flow

Chuck the original throttle body and the rather questionable plenum set up and replace it with individual throttle bodies direct to head.

Maybe incorporate a 993 plenum with variable length inlet

I already have SSI headers and free flow exhaust, might sell my ones and go up one size

Has anyone installed direct to head throttle bodies here yet?

Are there any ideas about which cams to use?

So that little lot will probably blow the budget right out of the water . . . . .

Your ideas and suggestions are most welcome thanks

You really need to work out what your power goals are, how you want your engine to behave ie where the power etc is to come in and what you're going to be doing with it, just street, street track etc.

If you're really after some decent power you can't go past turboing. You could build a reliable daily 400hp-500hp 3.2 turbo that behaves pretty much the same as your car does now for a lot less $ than a 400hp NA engine that would be quite a lumpy beast to use day to day.

Some notes:

•Individual throttles are only really needed once you get some extreme flow happening, a lot more than some different heads and 3.4 P&Cs.

•SSIs are too small for anything over 3.0, they're not great on 3.2s, ebay them...

•The 3.2 intake is good for over 800hp, it's not a restriction here, same goes with the throttle body, extrude honing it will balance it out a bit if you want improvements there.

If you want a serious engine built, give Michael Harris a call: http://www.promotive.com.au/, he's a nice guy.

[Guest vas930]

My mistake Spence. You are welcome to check out my turbo if I can look at yours.I will take your advice and talk to Stuart if he is a good turbo man. Again sorry for the mixup,this happens when you get old!

[Spence]

My mistake Spence. You are welcome to check out my turbo if I can look at yours.I will take your advice and talk to Stuart if he is a good turbo man. Again sorry for the mixup,this happens when you get old!

haha, no problem! Let me know when it's finished!