Tesla autopilot fatal crash

[Carrera28]

What if there are no white lines?

When it slows "when you approach another car " is that as you come up from behind? What if you want to overtake? You then need a longer run up.

Sounds stupid to me.

if there are no white lines it warns you that active steering is not available and since your hands are on the steering wheel its no big deal.

why a need for alonger run up, same principle as normal cruise control?

If you are overtaking on a single carriageway, you indicate, then turn the steering wheel, take your right foot put it on the accelerator and accelerate, then once past the car you indicate again, turn the steering wheel and take your foot off the accelerator and active cruise control takes over.  No different to what you do with normal cruise control.

if you are overtaking on dual carriageway, simply indicate and pull out as you would normally, car does not slow down stupidly distant to cars so you can overtake easily.  If you get too close the car slows down, but as soon as you pull out it speeds up and it is not sluggish in the way it accelerates.  Definitely superior to normal cruise control since you would have had to slow down ie take it off cruise control manually and reset.

The Tesla requires both hands on the wheel too and you have to acknowledge a bunch of disclaimers about how to use it, that it's in "beta" etc before even being able to enable it (i.e. Cars ship with it turned off).

Very sad but seriously even if this kept happening at the rate per kilometer travelled that this first accident comes in at, statistically we would all be much safer, and that's today not when this tech improves over time. Side note: There were over 3,000 other motoring fatalities in the world today, should we start a thread and lose our shit over each of those too? ?

Main question I have is whether this points towards them needing to adopt lidar in their system which I understand some others are using but Tesla don't. 

Tesla does not require hands on steering wheel while it is in active cruise control

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/semi-autonomous-cars-compared-tesla-vs-bmw-mercedes-and-infiniti-feature-2015-tesla-model-s-p85d-page-5

check the picture in this article.  Hands are required if auto pilot is not engaged.  Originally you didnt even need to be in the drivers seat.  I read an article about someone getting caught in Hong Kong or China (i dont remember which I am sorry) with the autopilot on sitting in the backseat.  Tesla has updated the software since.

 

[tazzieman]

My solution , heartily endorsed by the two young guys manning the Japanese tuner parts shop I was in this afternoon , was that every new driver should drive a Series Land Rover for a week. If they didn't have an accident , they passed. Otherwise they had to wait another 6 months .

I'm not really worried about how the LR would perform. But it would be a tremendous teacher.

[firstone]

Maybe the car thought the human was a threat (wanker) and eliminated him. ? 

Seriously. 

Pay attention whilst driving.

[Raven]

They should let the car loose around parliament house  plenty of wankers it could eliminated there ........................

Edited 1July, 2016 by Raven

[Dreamr]

So .....

After all of the banter over the last 2 pages .....

how many of you are going to retrofit this system in your classic Porsches? (or Land Rover in Tazzie's case)      

[Tips]

my Merc has the active as Carerra28 describes. 

It has its usefulness at times but also can be a PITA.  Whilst its not quite the Tesla level of automation its great on the motorway in peak hour. I drive the M2/bridge in Syd each day and traffic can be stop start and plenty of distractions so its a good back up but certainly would not dream of totally relying on it.  I would never dream of being so distracted that I wasn't watching the road or had hands on the wheel. 

Where its a PITA is the false alarms you get, particularly on a bend as it can pick up a road signs or a parked car and it will start to apply the brakes when you don't want them. I now have it switched off an just use cruise control.   Lane departure was worse that got turned off within a week.  Its also saving my brake wear as the ML is heavy and chews through pads and rotors so the unnecessary braking also kills the pocket. 

 

 

 

[TrevMcRev]

From Tesla... "This is the first known fatality in just over 130 million miles where Autopilot was activated. Among all vehicles in the US, there is a fatality every 94 million miles. Worldwide, there is a fatality approximately every 60 million miles."

https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss?utm_campaign=Blog_063016&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social

So Autopilot is actually more successful at not killing it's "drivers" than human drivers...

[sandy468]

From Tesla... "This is the first known fatality in just over 130 million miles where Autopilot was activated. Among all vehicles in the US, there is a fatality every 94 million miles. Worldwide, there is a fatality approximately every 60 million miles."

https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss?utm_campaign=Blog_063016&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social

So Autopilot is actually more successful at not killing it's "drivers" than human drivers...

129,500,000.00 miles probably on the test tracks

[Redracn]

I would not sat that at all. The tesla should only be compared with modern cars with state of the art driver assistance systems and safety devices. There are plenty of rubbish cars in the US that do not even have ABS and are far less safe in an accident(passengers more likely to die) that would drag the statistic down. In fact I am surprised that the tesla is not really that much better than the all american average. But of course a statistic on one incident is not valid as one more death soon and the tesla will be well below the US all car average. As it stands tesla should hang their heads in shame. I also doubt teslas are driven in challenging road conditions in autopilot. I bet the instructions are to only engage it in near ideal conditions. Seems like cheery picking to me.?

[JWM]

Umm, by that logic I think we should compare to the stats of people who've had accidents while not even looking out the window while they drive? ?

Edited 2July, 2016 by JWM

[Airhead]

Still sounds stupid to me.

[Redracn]

Umm, by that logic I think we should compare to the stats of people who've had accidents while not even looking out the window while they drive? ?

Yep that would be a valid comparison of driverless cars . Even if they dont have an autopilot?

[tazzieman]

I read a survey that something like 19% of pilots have woken up to a snoring co-pilot . So autopilot can be good , then again not being able to quickly -1/100th of a second best human reaction time - turn off autopilot if it unexpectedly fails may be a perpetual design flaw.

It's a sort of unhappy Jetsons future

[Redracn]

Perhaps an ejector seat for when the autopilot dumps its oil?

[tazzieman]

Perhaps an ejector seat for when the autopilot dumps its oil?

An automatic ejector seat that detects an idiot behind the wheel , or a super cool vintage mechanical gadget that locks on to the texting mode of the millenial "smart"phone?

 

[LeeM]

 No wonder it took Symsy 7 years to finish the DB. Ejector seats are a bugger to fit!

[DJM]

my Merc has the active as Carerra28 describes. 

It has its usefulness at times but also can be a PITA.  Whilst its not quite the Tesla level of automation its great on the motorway in peak hour. I drive the M2/bridge in Syd each day and traffic can be stop start and plenty of distractions so its a good back up but certainly would not dream of totally relying on it.  I would never dream of being so distracted that I wasn't watching the road or had hands on the wheel. 

Where its a PITA is the false alarms you get, particularly on a bend as it can pick up a road signs or a parked car and it will start to apply the brakes when you don't want them. I now have it switched off an just use cruise control.   Lane departure was worse that got turned off within a week.  Its also saving my brake wear as the ML is heavy and chews through pads and rotors so the unnecessary braking also kills the pocket. 

 

 

 

I have a '16 Q7 with similar radar cruise, lane change warning tech.  I've found it useful at times but PITA more often. It gets spooked by weird stuff. Ive already had a couple of cases of weird, uncalled for emergency braking and tugging at the wheel trying to spit me off the road when it got confused.  Audi don't allow it to be fully turned off as far as I can tell - I'd be happier without it and I won't be investing in self driving tech any time soon. 

Edited 2July, 2016 by DJM

[tazzieman]

There are some interesting comments from Tesla owners on various T forums. Of course , some apologists and the promises of things will get better. But along the lines that it is not like aircraft autopilot at all. More like 

My '73 LRover shows a nasty tendency to home back to its natural habitat when I take a country corner at a certain velocity. We do not use the word "speed" in the series LR community. And they cannot be made to oversteer.

 

[Coastr]

I'd be happy just to have more cars equipped with radar guided cruise control and for everyone to use it.

i did about 500kms of driving on the weekend and the constant lane changing you have to do because of everyone varying in speed by 2-5 kmh is infuriating.  When the same people pass you 5 times even though you are locked on cruise you have to wonder why they can't push that little button on the dash, sit a safe distance behind and just wait for the destination to show up.

[tazzieman]

i did about 500kms of driving on the weekend ...... wonder why they can't push that little button on the dash, sit a safe distance behind and just wait for the destination to show up.

You thereby convert driving into motoring . What a pity there aren't more trains. Or indeed in Tas , any.

[ANF]

You thereby convert driving into motoring commuting. What a pity there aren't more trains. Or indeed in Tas , any.

[TrevMcRev]

Another perspective..

https://medium.com/abundance-insights/upside-of-teslas-autopilot-641f67f45497#.3nd41ge2u

 

[Redracn]

Another perspective..

https://medium.com/abundance-insights/upside-of-teslas-autopilot-641f67f45497#.3nd41ge2u

 

Looks like a case of owner denial.  How dare the technology be blamed!

Of course the technology can be blamed just as we blame drivers. The software programmers should be held accountable. i.e. If they stuffed up the train signaling causing an accident there would be nowhere to hide for them or their bosses. 

He finds it really helps because it "keeps me in the lanes when I’m groggy or distracted.   "

With that attitude he should not be allowed on the roads. 

He also has no grasp of statistics.

[ANF]

Saying that the crash rate of the autopilot Telsa is lower than the national average is no indication that the car is any safer. By the shear fact that it is an average means that some will be higher and some will be lower. Not sure that anyone is tracking brand of car vs miles travelled vs deaths? I would say that the luxury euro brands would have a much higher average. Also one recorded death from one brand is not enough data to quantify or justify anything.

Agree if you are driving while "groggy or distracted" you are a dopey idiot and should be taken off the road!

Me, I'll keep to my Porsche/ Mercedes/ Volvo and drive with the proper care and attention that is required!

Edited 11July, 2016 by ANF

[JWM]

Two weeks later and I'm still not sure I really understand the furore to be honest... Tesla tell you it's a driver assistance system, not a driver replacement system, and despite assertions in the thread, you must have your hands on the wheel for it to work. Someone used it wrong (treating it like a replacement), and they crashed... I'm yet to hear a sensible explanation of why this is different to any other sort of accident caused by someone using a machine in a way it wasn't intended...