Camshafts

[Cheshire Cat]

Hello gentlemen, since I`m "building" a RS Inspired project and started an ITB EFI setup, the time comes to my engine as well. So, which camshaft profile would you recommend  for a aggressive street/possible racing demands? So far will leave the 3.0 ltr as it is but will go 3.2 and more CR with time. And where to grind\buy a set in Australia? 

Thanx in advance.

[Skidmarks]

GE60. Then focus on flowing heads and a great set of pipes. Anything bigger and its unruly. I used this approach on my 2.8 MFI and it yields 315 hp. There's a fair bit of nice gear in that motor but the basics stay the same. 

[Cheshire Cat]

GE60. Then focus on flowing heads and a great set of pipes. Anything bigger and its unruly. I used this approach on my 2.8 MFI and it yields 315 hp. There's a fair bit of nice gear in that motor but the basics stay the same. 

thanx mate. Anywhere in here to grind mines?

[Skidmarks]

thanx mate. Anywhere in here to grind mines?

PM me your mobile number and I'll give you a call and help you spend money!!

In fact, I may have a set I pulled out of another car. 

[SimonN]

GE60's are good, and you will love them in the 3.0l. When you go up to 3.2l they will feel less "cammy" and will give you a nice band from about 3250 rpm and a good mid range. If you were building a 3.2 now, you might be tempted to go for something a bit more aggressive., but that wouldn't be so good for the 3.0.

[Cheshire Cat]

GE60's are good, and you will love them in the 3.0l. When you go up to 3.2l they will feel less "cammy" and will give you a nice band from about 3250 rpm and a good mid range. If you were building a 3.2 now, you might be tempted to go for something a bit more aggressive., but that wouldn't be so good for the 3.0.

so far I haven't even converted my mechanical injection to efi so...

 

[SimonN]

I just posted something on another thread about this. I am a huge fan of programmable ECU's having done some mapping in a former life and, contrary to forum gossip you see, it can make a huge difference. I know of standard 3.2's running Motec and proper headers that are making in the region of 275-280 bhp. Of course, those are the high compression cars, but it is still a good bang for buck. And the great thing is, if you do more to the motor (cams, heads etc), you simply remap.

[Cheshire Cat]

I just posted something on another thread about this. I am a huge fan of programmable ECU's having done some mapping in a former life and, contrary to forum gossip you see, it can make a huge difference. I know of standard 3.2's running Motec and proper headers that are making in the region of 275-280 bhp. Of course, those are the high compression cars, but it is still a good bang for buck. And the great thing is, if you do more to the motor (cams, heads etc), you simply remap.

so, probably you could advice me a few things. 

The plan is to put together ITB's om EMS EM80 ecu. Or something similar with price per stuff ecu. 

But I have 3.0 sc '82, eventually will do the ports and cams and 3.2, but so far - to make it a bit smoother and tiny bit more powerful. 

[SimonN]

TBH, I am just getting my head back into this space and updating my knowledge, but I knew people who had success with EMS on other cars and i believe it is relatively easy to get to know. I just had a very quick look at the documentation which looks reasonably good. But the key is, if you are going to play yourself, is what do you think of the documentation, and what other support mechanisms are there? Are there decent forums? And if you really get stuck, is there some pro you can turn to who can then map it.

The other factor that led me down the Motec route was the availability in the UK of a ready made, Porsche specific harness. When considering the EMS, you might want to check on how long there generic harness is and where you are going to mount the ECU. Will you need to extend the harness, and if so, can they do it for you.

Without having done any due diligence, I really like the sound of the X-Faktory kit which uses the Megasquirt because they sell it with a basic map, and for the newbie, getting a base unit set up so the car actually runs at all can be one of the harder parts. In the end, before you commit, you need to be sure you understand what you are trying to do and how you are meant to achieve it. So long as you do that, the rest will happen over time as you learn more from practical experience. So long as you aren't stupid and test carefully as you go, you shouldn't do too much harm. It's the guys who dive in too quickly, get the system set up far too lean or rich and then cane the arse off the car that get into trouble.

[Cheshire Cat]

TBH, I am just getting my head back into this space and updating my knowledge, but I knew people who had success with EMS on other cars and i believe it is relatively easy to get to know. I just had a very quick look at the documentation which looks reasonably good. But the key is, if you are going to play yourself, is what do you think of the documentation, and what other support mechanisms are there? Are there decent forums? And if you really get stuck, is there some pro you can turn to who can then map it.

The other factor that led me down the Motec route was the availability in the UK of a ready made, Porsche specific harness. When considering the EMS, you might want to check on how long there generic harness is and where you are going to mount the ECU. Will you need to extend the harness, and if so, can they do it for you.

Without having done any due diligence, I really like the sound of the X-Faktory kit which uses the Megasquirt because they sell it with a basic map, and for the newbie, getting a base unit set up so the car actually runs at all can be one of the harder parts. In the end, before you commit, you need to be sure you understand what you are trying to do and how you are meant to achieve it. So long as you do that, the rest will happen over time as you learn more from practical experience. So long as you aren't stupid and test carefully as you go, you shouldn't do too much harm. It's the guys who dive in too quickly, get the system set up far too lean or rich and then cane the arse off the car that get into trouble.

Well, I could tell that the question about the harness is quite useful, so I have wrote them about it. The rest - I tried the software, so far I kinda like it don`t have much experience in this though. Forum is pretty empty, but the whole process is similar to any other normal standalone ECU so, I believe I could sort it out. They replying for emails once in a while. And yes, the "pro" factor was the key one. I reckon I`ll try to build the start up map but the proper tuning will be executed by some pro. 

Megasquirt was on the table but... But I`ve heard quite a few times that the "pros" aren`t keen to tune them. Right now I`m on the stage of obtaining all the info, parts etc, will start the whole thing slowly right after I`ll have 90% of parts and some wisdom

[SimonN]

I think you are taking a very sensible approach. FWIW, I wouldn't go with the megasquirt personally, but for some, it is less intimidating and easier than a "pro" set up. If you can get your head around a full pro system and you work slowly and methodically, it will pay off in the long run. It really isn't a "black art" because there is real science (targets) to aim at. It needs patience and takes time, and the chances are that over time, you will learn how to improve all sorts of areas of the map. Unlike experienced mappers, you have to learn a bit by trial and error but that is OK so long as you don't go out and thrash the car until you are really happy with the map. If you are sensible, short term settings that aren't quite there aren't going to do any real harm. Of course, if you are dramatically over fueling, you can get bad bore wash or under fueling can burn valves, but only if you drive hard when you shouldn't. Good luck an keep us posted.

[Cheshire Cat]

I think you are taking a very sensible approach. FWIW, I wouldn't go with the megasquirt personally, but for some, it is less intimidating and easier than a "pro" set up. If you can get your head around a full pro system and you work slowly and methodically, it will pay off in the long run. It really isn't a "black art" because there is real science (targets) to aim at. It needs patience and takes time, and the chances are that over time, you will learn how to improve all sorts of areas of the map. Unlike experienced mappers, you have to learn a bit by trial and error but that is OK so long as you don't go out and thrash the car until you are really happy with the map. If you are sensible, short term settings that aren't quite there aren't going to do any real harm. Of course, if you are dramatically over fueling, you can get bad bore wash or under fueling can burn valves, but only if you drive hard when you shouldn't. Good luck an keep us posted.

Thanx Simon, I`ll update my thread in a "Project" named 911 RSi (if you`re interested) as soon as will have anything to update

[Pfitz911]

Whats wrong with MS3 ??? Plenty of guys have used this in some high horsepower motors!!

Im just about to get an efi itb kit that uses MS3

[Cheshire Cat]

Whats wrong with MS3 ??? Plenty of guys have used this in some high horsepower motors!!

Im just about to get an efi itb kit that uses MS3

Nothing

"But I`ve heard quite a few times that the "pros" aren`t keen to tune them" quote

[Mike D'Silva]

On 10/10/2016 at 3:23 PM, Cheshire Cat said:

Hello gentlemen, since I`m "building" a RS Inspired project and started an ITB EFI setup, the time comes to my engine as well. So, which camshaft profile would you recommend  for a aggressive street/possible racing demands? So far will leave the 3.0 ltr as it is but will go 3.2 and more CR with time. And where to grind\buy a set in Australia? 

Thanx in advance.

Which cam did you choose in the end?

 

[Cheshire Cat]

6 hours ago, Mike D'Silva said:

Which cam did you choose in the end?

 

I haven`t decided yet, was keen to 911S ones then started moving towards GE80 profiles but seems like I`ll start thinking about the cams after my heads will be reconditioned and ported, with the flow numbers I`ll be able to get some custom made ones for my setup. 

 

[Mike D'Silva]

1. I'm looking at 1 of these...

2. .475/.440 280°/262° 256°/238° 464/465 N/A   05-401 $963.00 + core 05-402 $1179.00

   ▼ .476/.450 284°/270° 264°/248° 120/104 N/A   05-261 $963.00 + core 05-262 $1179.00

[Cheshire Cat]

What kind of setup you have Mike?

Btw I have a set of pistons with 9.3CR for alusil cylinders if you need.

[Mike D'Silva]

Mr Cat, 

3.0 Carrera motor.. with 40mm itbs and efi from rasant performance. I have nikasil cylinders so cannot use your pistons. I am leaning toward a set of CP pistons in either 9.5 or 10.5:1. I have been advised that the 464/465 cam will likely be the best cam to work with my 40mm throttle bodies and should give me good torque and midrange. I know some people use JE but some folks over in the US have advised that off the shelf JE are not that reliable for fit. Looks like I will be rebuilding my motor again.. damn it.

 

[88-ben-88]

FWIW, I am currently collecting parts for a 3.0sc rebuild, but have ported heads being rebuilt, CP Carrillo  95mm 10.5:1 pistons,  SSI's and Monty 2 into,  MS2 based efi and Triumph ITBs, EDIS crank fire single plug (seriously want twin plug but have been assured 10.5:1 is ok) and have chosen a Dougherty DC35. Car is a stripped road going SC for track use. I may be a little conservative on the cam but time will tell... 

[Mike D'Silva]

 

7 hours ago, 88-ben-88 said:

FWIW, I am currently collecting parts for a 3.0sc rebuild, but have ported heads being rebuilt, CP Carrillo  95mm 10.5:1 pistons,  SSI's and Monty 2 into,  MS2 based efi and Triumph ITBs, EDIS crank fire single plug (seriously want twin plug but have been assured 10.5:1 is ok) and have chosen a Dougherty DC35. Car is a stripped road going SC for track use. I may be a little conservative on the cam but time will tell... 

Ben

is this the same Ben I have been emailing? Why the DC35? Where did you buy your CP pistons?

 

[Peter M]

7 hours ago, 88-ben-88 said:

FWIW, I am currently collecting parts for a 3.0sc rebuild, but have ported heads being rebuilt, CP Carrillo  95mm 10.5:1 pistons,  SSI's and Monty 2 into,  MS2 based efi and Triumph ITBs, EDIS crank fire single plug (seriously want twin plug but have been assured 10.5:1 is ok) and have chosen a Dougherty DC35. Car is a stripped road going SC for track use. I may be a little conservative on the cam but time will tell... 

That should be a hoot to drive!

I was only charged 600 bucks extra to have my heads fitted for twin plugs while they being reconditioned so don't dismiss it as being too costly - actually anything less than a grand for these engines is a unfortunately rare bargain!

I haven't energised the second plug yet and am running 10.3:1.  That will come in Stage II when I go CoP's.

[88-ben-88]

2 hours ago, Peter M said:

That should be a hoot to drive!

I was only charged 600 bucks extra to have my heads fitted for twin plugs while they being reconditioned so don't dismiss it as being too costly - actually anything less than a grand for these engines is a unfortunately rare bargain!

I haven't energised the second plug yet and am running 10.3:1.  That will come in Stage II when I go CoP's.

So when you say you haven't energised the plug yet, are you saying that there is simply a 'dead' spark plug sitting in the lower plug hole?

[Zelrik911]

On 10/12/2016 at 10:36 PM, Cheshire Cat said:

Nothing

"But I`ve heard quite a few times that the "pros" aren`t keen to tune them" quote

With all these aftermarket ECUs you must accept that you will end up doing a whole lot of retuning yourself.

The more you learn about what you are doing, the less you will rely on (or trust) "the pros" . Pros will already have a cosy relationship with a ECU supplier and dont want to move out of their comfort, or profit zone.

There is heaps of advice & help worldwide for the open source ECUs (such as MS2 &/or MS3) - people swap tips & maps all the time on US & UK forums like Pelican; which is directly related to your 911. A local Pro may have experience tuning Wolf ECUs on Subaru s, but his help is probably not what you want, or could afford, anyway.  

[Peter M]

1 hour ago, 88-ben-88 said:

So when you say you haven't energised the plug yet, are you saying that there is simply a 'dead' spark plug sitting in the lower plug hole?

Yes.