911 3.2 A/C Repair/Replacement

[davidtran]

Hi everyone

Few weeks ago I put my a/c on and after drivings I went to check the oil and noticed green liquid all over my engine lid and condensor. I think it would be the dye and lubricant? 

My car is late model 3.2 and I'm not sure much about the A/C. I want to keep it original I'm happy with it working the way it is. 

Do I rebuild compressor, or replace? Anywhere to source these parts in Australia? Do I replace all the a/c lines too, or just leave? Any feedback would be great from someone who knows and maybe tone it before. 

I found a few complete replacement kit with lines and new condensor in USA for almost $2.5k AUD. Not sure if it's worth to do or not. 

 

Thank you 

 

David 

[autojack]

Replacing the AC lines is a major job. I did it in order to switch to barrier hoses compatible with R134 refrigerant. If you're still using R12 and able to source it to refill your system, you may be able to keep your existing original hoses. Otherwise, R134 will leak out of the old non-barrier hoses over time.

I don't know if you can get compressor rebuild parts in Oz. I did mine with parts from Griffiths when I lived in the US.

Are you sure the leak is from your compressor, and not from a hose or the condenser?

[davidtran]

My car has R134a and it was changed out in 2016. I'm not sure exactly where leak is from. I just saw the dye all over inside of decklid above compressor and around and underneath compressor, so I assumes its from compressor. Is there a better way to confirm? 

I saw the Griffiths online and that's what I was referring to with 2.5k for the complete kit. 

Seeing as though I have r134 and maybe old lines (not sure), maybe that's why it's leaking. So maybe the complete kit is the best option. 

Not sure on the best ways to sort this out.. 

[autojack]

I don't think the dye leak is just because of the (possibly) incompatible lines. I think only the refrigerant itself could leak out through those. So you probably have a bigger leak somewhere. You may need someone to pressurize the system to figure out where it's coming from. But I would expect the dye to be concentrated near the source.

It could definitely be a compressor seal failed. But I would also wonder if one of the AC line fittings was the culprit. The condenser doesn't seem too likely unless it is visibly corroded or damaged.

Any chance you're in Melbourne? If so, I could come take a look.

[autojack]

Take a look at the hoses which run up to the engine lid condenser. Those flex every time it is opened and shut, and are known to eventually crack and fail.

[OZ930]

Wash the dye away, let it dry, give it a very short run with engine lid open and with AC on, stop and have a look for signs of dye leakage.  If you have a helper have them either watch for the leak while you start and stop the engine or other way around.

 

[911]

10 hours ago, autojack said:

I don't think the dye leak is just because of the (possibly) incompatible lines. I think only the refrigerant itself could leak out through those. So you probably have a bigger leak somewhere. You may need someone to pressurize the system to figure out where it's coming from. But I would expect the dye to be concentrated near the source.

It could definitely be a compressor seal failed. But I would also wonder if one of the AC line fittings was the culprit. The condenser doesn't seem too likely unless it is visibly corroded or damaged.

Any chance you're in Melbourne? If so, I could come take a look.

I had pretty much the same issue at the beginning of the year. Dye all over the same areas, but mainly concentrated to the bottom of the condenser itself. Had no idea about the lines needing to be upgraded for R134. I've since just stopped using my aircon for fear of making it worse. I asked a while ago about new and rebuilt compressors with no luck. 

I was reading online, to redo the system is about 15-20 hours of work and pricing in new lines with that, you probably won't get change out of $4k by the sound of things. 

Do you recommend any shops in Melbourne that can diagnose and change what's required? I had it regassed in November last year, but I think it's all leaked out. Hoping I don't need a completely new system 

Mine look pretty old, but I'm not sure if they're the original ones from new. 

 

[davidtran]

11 hours ago, autojack said:

Take a look at the hoses which run up to the engine lid condenser. Those flex every time it is opened and shut, and are known to eventually crack and fail.

I will take a look and get back. 

Can't see any crack unless really small when I looked. 

I just cleaned all the dyes with a dry microfibre cloth as best as I could? I think that's OK, or is there better way?

I remember reading a/c gas when exposed to air becomes acid. Not sure if that will damage my paint works. 

I'm unfortunately in Sydney. Would have been great to get a set of eyes, because I have no idea with a/c systems. 

1 hour ago, 911 said:

I had pretty much the same issue at the beginning of the year. Dye all over the same areas, but mainly concentrated to the bottom of the condenser itself. Had no idea about the lines needing to be upgraded for R134. I've since just stopped using my aircon for fear of making it worse. I asked a while ago about new and rebuilt compressors with no luck. 

I was reading online, to redo the system is about 15-20 hours of work and pricing in new lines with that, you probably won't get change out of $4k by the sound of things. 

Do you recommend any shops in Melbourne that can diagnose and change what's required? I had it regassed in November last year, but I think it's all leaked out. Hoping I don't need a completely new system 

Mine look pretty old, but I'm not sure if they're the original ones from new. 

 

Yes seems very expensive. Not sure if it worth the cost unfortunately. 20 hours seems like long time to just change hoses. That's going to be a big job. 

[autojack]

It's not 20 hours and $2-4k just for the hoses, that's closer to the time and cost for a full system upgrade, which is what I did. Hoses alone would be a couple of hours, I did them with help from a friend to feed them through some of the tight areas.

I've never had a dye leak but I'm sure your cleanup was fine. Never heard about the gas turning to acid, I wouldn't worry. I had a leak from my compressor and my paint is fine.

I definitely recommend reading some of the AC system information on the Griffiths site, it helps a lot with understanding both the general principles and Porsche specific details of operation, as well as some of the limitations of the original 911 system. But if you've been satisfied with the performance of your existing setup, I wouldn't jump into doing a major upgrade. I did one on my system because I wanted it to perform well in hot weather when I moved to Oz. But in practice I'm not using the car that often on hot days. Still, when I do, I'm grateful that it works, and works well. I get vent temperatures just below 2C.

One thing I learned from Griffiths is that you should run the system regularly, even when it isn't needed, because doing so circulates the lubricant through everything and helps prolong the system's life.

4 hours ago, 911 said:

I had pretty much the same issue at the beginning of the year. Dye all over the same areas, but mainly concentrated to the bottom of the condenser itself. Had no idea about the lines needing to be upgraded for R134. I've since just stopped using my aircon for fear of making it worse. I asked a while ago about new and rebuilt compressors with no luck. 

I was reading online, to redo the system is about 15-20 hours of work and pricing in new lines with that, you probably won't get change out of $4k by the sound of things. 

Do you recommend any shops in Melbourne that can diagnose and change what's required? I had it regassed in November last year, but I think it's all leaked out. Hoping I don't need a completely new system 

Mine look pretty old, but I'm not sure if they're the original ones from new.

If you were going to do an AC system upgrade, you would want to find a shop that has done them in the 911. I don't know anyone here offhand. If you just want to diagnose the leak, any competent AC tech could do that. I've used Rob's Auto Elecs in Brunswick for my daily drivers. And I had the 911 system charged up at Complete Automotive in Burwood, on someone else's recommendation. Try one of them if convenient to you.

Regarding R134 conversion, here's some info on that: https://griffiths.com/ac-system-help-introduction/r134a-vs-r12/

If someone just changed the charge ports and pumped it up with R134, they really didn't do an adequate conversion. It's more involved than that, even if you don't do hoses.

[911]

1 hour ago, autojack said:

It's not 20 hours and $2-4k just for the hoses, that's closer to the time and cost for a full system upgrade, which is what I did. Hoses alone would be a couple of hours, I did them with help from a friend to feed them through some of the tight areas.

I've never had a dye leak but I'm sure your cleanup was fine. Never heard about the gas turning to acid, I wouldn't worry. I had a leak from my compressor and my paint is fine.

I definitely recommend reading some of the AC system information on the Griffiths site, it helps a lot with understanding both the general principles and Porsche specific details of operation, as well as some of the limitations of the original 911 system. But if you've been satisfied with the performance of your existing setup, I wouldn't jump into doing a major upgrade. I did one on my system because I wanted it to perform well in hot weather when I moved to Oz. But in practice I'm not using the car that often on hot days. Still, when I do, I'm grateful that it works, and works well. I get vent temperatures just below 2C.

One thing I learned from Griffiths is that you should run the system regularly, even when it isn't needed, because doing so circulates the lubricant through everything and helps prolong the system's life.

If you were going to do an AC system upgrade, you would want to find a shop that has done them in the 911. I don't know anyone here offhand. If you just want to diagnose the leak, any competent AC tech could do that. I've used Rob's Auto Elecs in Brunswick for my daily drivers. And I had the 911 system charged up at Complete Automotive in Burwood, on someone else's recommendation. Try one of them if convenient to you.

Regarding R134 conversion, here's some info on that: https://griffiths.com/ac-system-help-introduction/r134a-vs-r12/

If someone just changed the charge ports and pumped it up with R134, they really didn't do an adequate conversion. It's more involved than that, even if you don't do hoses.

That's great to know. 

I have a feeling repco did the conversion, as there's a sticker under my decklid mentioning r134a and repco, which doesn't give me alot of confidence. 

I had a look at griffiths website and found what looks like a kit upgraded to R134a for rhd. Something like that might be the best way to go with regards to my system which has leaked twice after regassing with r134a and it was pressure tested too, both times, so I'm not sure what the go is. Makes no sense to me. It was working perfectly a few months ago and I had the same issue with the dye all over the engine bay. Haven't turned it on since. 

https://griffiths.com/product/porsche-911-ac-compressor-upgrade-kit-1984-89-rh-drive/

Would buying that be my best option? Sorry, I have no idea when it comes to aircons. I might have to read up on the links you've given above. 

[autojack]

Griffiths also mentions R134 o-rings. If those weren't replaced, I wonder if those are failing at your hose connection points.

If you want to consider a Griffiths system, I suggest you contact him directly for advice. If he helps you spec the parts first, he will give you a better price than if you just order without talking to him first. He can be a little bit gruff, but he's helpful and the unquestioned expert about the 911 AC systems.

I'm very happy to meet up in person and show you my installation and explain in more detail. I'm in Carlton North.

[911]

49 minutes ago, autojack said:

Griffiths also mentions R134 o-rings. If those weren't replaced, I wonder if those are failing at your hose connection points.

If you want to consider a Griffiths system, I suggest you contact him directly for advice. If he helps you spec the parts first, he will give you a better price than if you just order without talking to him first. He can be a little bit gruff, but he's helpful and the unquestioned expert about the 911 AC systems.

I'm very happy to meet up in person and show you my installation and explain in more detail. I'm in Carlton North.

If I were to guess, I'd say I was running the original o-rings.

I'll contact him and let him know what's happened and see what he recommends.

I'll send you a message.

[Peter M]

The oil leak you have described is from the oil seal in the front of the air compressor behind the pulley.

It a reasonably straight forward fix, I’ve done two to date in an XJ6 and a 911.

These Nippon Denso compressors have been used in many vehicles and are generally reliable and long lasting.  Just need new seals occasionally.

You can buy replacement compressors but I like to reseal them so they look original.

As for refrigerant I’ve converted my current 911 to Hychill 30 and it is so much better than my first 3.2 that I converted to r134a. Hychill also avoids to need to replace all the hoses as it runs at lower pressure that r134a.

I also like Hychill as I can gas it myself and a charge seems to last forever and performs well to the point where I need to be careful not to freeze the evaporator by having the thermostat set to low.

The most important aspect is to increase airflow and not worry about really low vent temperatures.  Ie Strongly consider additional vent area.

[davidtran]

7 hours ago, autojack said:

It's not 20 hours and $2-4k just for the hoses, that's closer to the time and cost for a full system upgrade, which is what I did. Hoses alone would be a couple of hours, I did them with help from a friend to feed them through some of the tight areas.

I've never had a dye leak but I'm sure your cleanup was fine. Never heard about the gas turning to acid, I wouldn't worry. I had a leak from my compressor and my paint is fine.

I definitely recommend reading some of the AC system information on the Griffiths site, it helps a lot with understanding both the general principles and Porsche specific details of operation, as well as some of the limitations of the original 911 system. But if you've been satisfied with the performance of your existing setup, I wouldn't jump into doing a major upgrade. I did one on my system because I wanted it to perform well in hot weather when I moved to Oz. But in practice I'm not using the car that often on hot days. Still, when I do, I'm grateful that it works, and works well. I get vent temperatures just below 2C.

One thing I learned from Griffiths is that you should run the system regularly, even when it isn't needed, because doing so circulates the lubricant through everything and helps prolong the system's life.

If you were going to do an AC system upgrade, you would want to find a shop that has done them in the 911. I don't know anyone here offhand. If you just want to diagnose the leak, any competent AC tech could do that. I've used Rob's Auto Elecs in Brunswick for my daily drivers. And I had the 911 system charged up at Complete Automotive in Burwood, on someone else's recommendation. Try one of them if convenient to you.

Regarding R134 conversion, here's some info on that: https://griffiths.com/ac-system-help-introduction/r134a-vs-r12/

If someone just changed the charge ports and pumped it up with R134, they really didn't do an adequate conversion. It's more involved than that, even if you don't do hoses.

Thank you for that. 

I had a look and did a bit of reading and it looks like it's no point running r134 with factories standard hoses because they will leak and very quickly compared to r12, which is maybe what's happend to me? 2 months or so sounds quite quick though. The factories hoses are not barrier hoses, so not sealed well enough for r134 and I don't think you can even get OEM hose anymore anyway. 

So I'm thinkings that minimum would be to get a seals kit for compressor and upgrade all hoses? Nothing else I can think to do? 

4 hours ago, Peter M said:

The oil leak you have described is from the oil seal in the front of the air compressor behind the pulley.

It a reasonably straight forward fix, I’ve done two to date in an XJ6 and a 911.

These Nippon Denso compressors have been used in many vehicles and are generally reliable and long lasting.  Just need new seals occasionally.

You can buy replacement compressors but I like to reseal them so they look original.

As for refrigerant I’ve converted my current 911 to Hychill 30 and it is so much better than my first 3.2 that I converted to r134a. Hychill also avoids to need to replace all the hoses as it runs at lower pressure that r134a.

I also like Hychill as I can gas it myself and a charge seems to last forever and performs well to the point where I need to be careful not to freeze the evaporator by having the thermostat set to low.

The most important aspect is to increase airflow and not worry about really low vent temperatures.  Ie Strongly consider additional vent area.

Thanks for that. How come everyone upgrades to the r134. I've never heard or read about the hychill on the forums. Wouldn't that makes more sense seeing as you can keep OEM hoses and do it yourself?

In front of condesor where bolt is there was a little green dyes so maybe you are right about the leak in that spot. 

What do you mean about addings more ventilations, as in for the condensers? 

Finally what is involved in upgrading to hychill30? Easier/harder, more expensive than r134? 

 

Thank you 

[Peter M]

David

If you mean the nut in the middle of the compressor pulley, yes that is also an indicator the front seal is leaking.

I upgraded my first 3.2 to r134a because that’s what everyone does.  After being disappointed with the results (plus the huge cost and time involved in replacing just about everything!) I did more research and HyChill Minus 30 sounded promising.

Also the cost of doing r134a regasses is expensive and I discovered I could buy my own vacuum pump, gauges and a canister of HyChill for about the same cost.

I have been impressed with it in my current 3.2 and also converted a mid 90’s Jag as well.

There have been some good AC upgrade threads on PFA over the last 10 years and I suggest this would be a good place to start.

As for vents, there is insufficient dash vent area on these old cars to be as good as they could be.  Even with the bigger vents in the MY86 onward cars aren’t as good as they promise to be.

I installed some additional under dash vents on my ‘85 which I think worked better than the larger standard vents on my ‘88.  I think my next mod should be to add more vent area.  It also annoys me that the standard centre vents can’t be directed left or right far enough.

Be warned I can talk about this topic for days!

Other advantages to going HyChill is that you don’t need to install a over/under pressure switch like you do going to r134a.

To convert you current AC would just require a new receiver/dryer, vacuum it down and then just add the HyChill.  HyChill have info on their website on how to do this.

[autojack]

It doesn't seem like you should need to re-gas the system very often. Like I would expect it to go years between recharges. My system was charged six years ago and is still fine.

[davidtran]

3 minutes ago, Peter M said:

David

If you mean the nut in the middle of the compressor pulley, yes that is also an indicator the front seal is leaking.

I upgraded my first 3.2 to r134a because that’s what everyone does.  After being disappointed with the results (plus the huge cost and time involved in replacing just about everything!) I did more research and HyChill Minus 30 sounded promising.

Also the cost of doing r134a regasses is expensive and I discovered I could buy my own vacuum pump, gauges and a canister of HyChill for about the same cost.

I have been impressed with it in my current 3.2 and also converted a mid 90’s Jag as well.

There have been some good AC upgrade threads on PFA over the last 10 years and I suggest this would be a good place to start.

As for vents, there is insufficient dash vent area on these old cars to be as good as they could be.  Even with the bigger vents in the MY86 onward cars aren’t as good as they promise to be.

I installed some additional under dash vents on my ‘85 which I think worked better than the larger standard vents on my ‘88.  I think my next mod should be to add more vent area.  It also annoys me that the standard centre vents can’t be directed left or right far enough.

Be warned I can talk about this topic for days!

Thank you for quick replies. 

Would it be a bigger headaches for me converting from my r134 to hychil30, rather than converting from the r12 that you did to hychill, or is it the same thing really. 

If hoses remain the same, would it just be connections and maybe doing a seal kit on the compressor to ensure it is working good?

Sorry for the questions. I'll read a bit on forum, but I haven't got much knowledges about the hychill30

1 minute ago, autojack said:

It doesn't seem like you should need to re-gas the system very often. Like I would expect it to go years between recharges. My system was charged six years ago and is still fine.

Then that means something is not right. Maybe because my car sat for long time seals dried up. Maybe they passed the pressure tests when regas but just gave up now I'm thinking. It was interesting reading about the barrier hoses and the r134. I wonder how long r134 lasts in stnadards OEM hose compare to Griffiths hoses. 

[Peter M]

It doesn’t matter if it is R12 or r134a. Just carefully run a ultraviolet light over each joint to check for leaks (assuming you have fluro dye in the system already) and repair any leaks first along with rebuilding your compressor.

it’s also a good ideal to do any evaporator, condenser or evaporator fan modifications or replacements at the same time to avoid having to regas.

I also strongly recommend adding a fuse to the front condenser fan as these can seize and cause wiring to short out in the frunk.

[davidtran]

I have already installed the fuse luckily. I got it from the member on this forum which was great. 

I will have a look at it soon, but most likely at next service. 

Is it OK to just leave it and not turn it on for 10 months. I know they need to be ran to works well, but it's just easier to do it with the servicing. 

Thank you 

[Peter M]

Yes, no problem.  Sounds like it’s already lost pressure anyway.

[911]

On 11/04/2024 at 17:00, Peter M said:

Yes, no problem.  Sounds like it’s already lost pressure anyway.

Noticed after a drive this morning that I still had a leak on the compressor even after wiping it down the last time I drove it a few weeks ago, while running the A/C. Didn't turn the A/C on this time, only the heater, so I'm not sure why it leaked? Maybe the seal is just that far gone that the compressor doesn't need to be running for it to seep out. 

Given the location of the dye maybe the leak is coming from that front seal on the compressor that you mentioned @Peter M?

I would have thought there'd be some dye around the bolt right at the front of the.compressor if that be the case, but nothing.

Providing this is the case, would you bother changing out the lines, or just have the compressor resealed? Some of my lines look original (very white). 

Also what is the best way to clean up the dye? Just a dry, or damp cloth? Not sure if it's corrosive or anything. Doubt it being inside a a/c system, wouldn't make too much sense. 

[Peter M]

Ross

That puddle looks like it’s coming from the shaft seal.  Even when the compressor is not working the system is still under some pressure.

I would suggest you degrease the area and see if it reappears.  Do you also have a spray of oil across the underside of the engine lid from the oil leaking onto the back of the pulley?

The nut just holds the clutch on so it’s a pretty tortuous route for the oil to follow so does not always become wet when the seal leaks.

[911]

32 minutes ago, Peter M said:

Ross

That puddle looks like it’s coming from the shaft seal.  Even when the compressor is not working the system is still under some pressure.

I would suggest you degrease the area and see if it reappears.  Do you also have a spray of oil across the underside of the engine lid from the oil leaking onto the back of the pulley?

The nut just holds the clutch on so it’s a pretty tortuous route for the oil to follow so does not always become wet when the seal leaks.

Thanks Peter. I wiped it down with a damp cloth, it's only on the areas you can see in the photo this time. The first leak sprayed all over the bottom of the decklid. Maybe not enough pressure left in the system for that this time. 

I might hold out until next service to get it resealed towards the end of the year. The workshop, said they usually send them out to be rebuilt.

Would you bother with the lines? Or just reasel it giving the location of the leak. I might see if they can reseal it and just add connections for the hychil30 moving forward. 

[Peter M]

Me, I would put a seals kit through the compressor, replace the receiver/dryer, replenish the lost oil from completing the first two tasks and regas with HyChill Minus 30.  No special connections required.