Impartial 928 summary article

[tazzieman]

http://totalcarmagazine.com/classicandbeloved/2013/03/28/porsche_928_s4/

 

Worth a read if you're hetero 928 , bi or "not yet committed"

 

 

 

they are huge, albeit very good, toys for huge, good boys

[f3nr15]

Here's a period comparo with the BMW 850i (V12) from Car & Driver 1992 -

 

[Russ]

I did laugh at impartial!

 

all this 928 content is making me consider a 928 as a comfortable daily driver to work and back... :|

[f3nr15]

More 928 love - Bruce Buchanan posted this as a response to a thread on the landshark oz Yahoo group, hope he doesn't mind me reproducing it here - it's just a nice insight into an expert's opinion on an often-times maligned car -

 

EDIT: Oops, just saw that you've already immortalised this in your other thread, tazzieman!

 

 

 

...the Porsche 928 , we are lucky to be living at this very point in time , because you may like me purchase a 928 of some version 

 

The 928 ( any version ) was always a low volume production GT car with lots of exotic materials used as standard & being a car from deep last century , its very much a car you can dismantle & repair lots of individual components , where as on most / all this century cars a lot of the individual components , like Auto transmissions , power steering components , ball joints , engines are for the most part not repairable in the way last century cars were ( that time we grew up with has disappeared in this century ) , thats just how it is 

 

Plus like the  944 / 951 / 968 / 911 from last century , they are not too old as to not being able to source parts & the big plus is a 928S4 ( for example ) purchased that is in very nice cosmetic condition ( meaning not in desperate need of a repaint ( too much Australian sun over 27 years ) & nice to very nice interior ( again not sun destroyed ) is very inexpensive to buy when one considered how expensive they were brand new & how exotic these engineering masterpieces are , particularly when you dismantle one for the first time & see first hand the over the top expensive engineering / cost that Porsche invested in these very high in human labour to assemble GT cars 

 

Things to think about in regards to the 928/S/S4/GT/GTS }

 

A ) like the 944 / 951 / 968 , the 928 ( all ) have a near perfect weight distribution ( front & rear ) , this is because the Alloy V8 engine was pushed back in the engine bay ( no gearbox behind it ) , T Tube drive to the transaxle trans at the rear , even the battery is at the rear , but this is where the similarity stops with the 944 series , the 928 ( all ) because the cost new was so much more ,Porsche put a lot more exotic materials into the car which leads to }

 

All alloy front guards & bonnet ( engine lid ) , both doors are completely made of alloy , inner & outer sections of the door plus the window frame ( the whole thing ) , you don't see this to often on a last century car 

 

C ) The front and rear upper suspension arms are Forged alloy ( not cast but forged ) & made by Fuchs of Germany ( no other Porsche received this over the top engineering ) , the front suspension lower control arms are massive box section alloy ( these lower suspension arms are the strongest suspension arms I have ever seen in my entire life in regards to cars sold to the public ( yet nearly none knows about this engineering )

 

D) The brakes fitted as standard on the 928S ( 1986 year type onwards ) are massive Brembo alloy 4 piston callipers on the front ( huge vented discs )  & rear brakes are Brembo alloy 4 piston callipers & large ( for rear) vented discs & ABS standard ( 86> )  , first Porsche to get ABS standard , it wasn't until 1990 ( 964) did the 911 series & the 944 series received ABS as standard , however the 944 series did have ABS as an expensive option from the 1987 year type , the 911 had to wait until the 964 arrival to get ABS 

 

E ) The 928 ( 1977/78 ) was the first Porsche to get a non rustable/ safety ( plastic fuel tank ) as standard , the 944 series got this from 1986 , but the poor old 911 had to wait until the arrival of the 964 in 1990 to get a much more safer fuel tank 

 

F ) The 928 is the only road car sold to the public that the front & rear wheels barely change in their camber as you raise one up onto a hoist , meaning when we put a 944 . 951 . 911 , 964 , 993 , 996 , 997 , 986 , etc etc up into the air ( on a hoist ) the rear wheels on the models mentioned above go through a lot of camber change , this is not desirable in the perfect world , meaning pushing a car hard on a bumpy country road & gaining into a corner one goes in too fast & at the same time you hit the brakes ( just for a second in desperation as we all do ) & naturally the car rides over an imperfection in the road surface ( bump ) and as the rear wheel / tyre is being pushed sideways ( because we are going way too fast ) the wheel / tyre looses contact with the road for a split second & the large neg camber ( under load) is now released & in a quarto of a second the camber has changed to positive = instant tyre slip & you have just found the limit of the car in that situation & you may make it or you may not make it 

If you can reduce this tendency ( camber change ) + add some toe in changers ( Weissach rear axle ) only found on the 928 series , Porsche was so proud of this design they named it after their famous Research centre .

The Weissach rear axle design is in effect a mechanical 4 wheel steering system ( I think Mazda paid Porsche a patent right to use a less expensive form on the RX7 , the 928 rear axle design rectifies the tendency of road cars with road car suspension bushings ( when pushed hard while cornering ) to understeer , meaning the weissach rear axle stops this under these conditions + very little camber change ( front or rear) = extreme road cornering possible without even causing a mild sweat  ( with decent tyres of course & shocks in good order ) 

In fact in those odd occasions where one goes way too deep into a corner while thinking this corner is not the one that gets tighter & tighter , then you realised you were thinking of the wrong corner , well in the same year model 911 & particularly a same year model 911 Turbo ( say 1980's anything ) you are in deep deep deep shit 

But in the 928 almost nothing really happens except for a mild 4 wheel slide , you can even make it worse in a 928 & use the brakes in mid corner ( not recommended in any car ) but the 928 just copes with it & you say to your'e self = gee I am a great driver 

And if the said 928 has a LSD ( limited slip diff ) its even more impressive , but if its worn ( like any LSD ) you don't get the impressive benefit 

 

But thats why I like the old 911 Turbo , its a widow make in tees hard road cornering conditions , I think they ( 911 Turbo > 1989 ) of the Kawasaki 750 Mach IV two strike triple I had for two years back in the mis 1970's , its that nervous feel and poet band that bike had reminds me so much of the 1970's & 1980's 911 Turbo's 

 

Thats the funny thing about the 928S4 ( example ) its almost too good , its level of stability was way way way way ahead of the competition it was in another league 

 

Then I could talk about the incredible Recaro seats that only the 928 got , then I could talk about the perfect correct legs straight ahead & not pushed to one side like the 911 got in R / H / D 

 

Then I could talk about the amazing potential of the interior ventilation & A/C

 

Then I could talk about the amazingly heavy ( read extremely safe ) occupant cell ( this is where all the weight is )

 

Then I could go on for hours about the magnificent alusil Mahle in Germany made engine crankcase , just like the 944 etc 

 

But I can't go on .I have run out of time

 

Regards

Bruce Buchanan

Buchanan Automotive

[tazzieman]

I did laugh at impartial!

 

all this 928 content is making me consider a 928 as a comfortable daily driver to work and back... :|

My manual with old 915 g'box 911 was bought as a comfortable daily drive. And it is.

The 928 is a different flavour ; you feel like the chauffeur and owner rolled into one!

Often I play "eeny meeny" in the mornings.

Sometimes I take the landrover , but it's not a comfortable drive 

[f3nr15]

Another positive review, from today it seems...

http://www.scotsman.com/motors/reviews/porsche/one-million-years-gt-1-2657059

[MB911]

I've always like the 928 and seriously looked at a 928S4 as a possibility when I bought my 944S2.  The car was then a daily driver so the cost of the extra fuel and all the rumors of running costs pointed me to the 944 instead. 

 

I know that no Porsche is cheap to own and you should always buy the best one you can afford to avoid paying later in repairs, but what has been the experience of the "Landshark" owners with regard to running / ownership costs? How would you rate a 928S4 as a daily driver in 2014? 

 

Now how do I convince my wife that two Porsche's are so much better than one and that a 928 would do nearly the same job as my dual cab ute day to day   I think I'm dreaming lol

[tazzieman]

Mark . there's not much to add to what has been said before. In summary :

 

1. They are Porsches ; bargain buys are fraught with risk , especially if you have no mechanical skills

2. By & large they are rust free : usual exceptions - salty climates , bad repairs

3. They are fairly complex , handbuilt cars that have many components - disassembly can be prolonged

4. The engine is similar to that of a 944 , only there are twice as many bits thus if the TB skips a tooth or two , twice the cost to repair.

5. Like all alloy engines , they require frequent coolant changes to prevent block corrosion and radiator clagging. This is no different to any alloy engine , and in fact the Porsche ones were made of an especially resilient alloy. Which is why you pay more for Porsches in the first place.

6. The main service items are the TB and water pump. Many enthusiasts tackle this themselves , but it is not a Barina - and expect to have to replace more parts. Having said that , 5-6 years is the interval , plus tension checks (later cars have auto tensioners and aftermarket ones are available). In later cars (S4) the thrust plate must be checked for movement (creep) - a quick check , and the crankshaft thrust bearing "issue" is in Bruce Buchana's opinion more related to use of improper oil (too thin , synthetic etc)

7. Like any old car (youngest one is 19 years old now) there will be issues of wear and tear ; no different to other Porsches and classics. Even the 996 911 and 986 Boxster is nearly 20 years old...

8. because they were so well put together , a complete restoration is only the province of the extremely fat-walleted enthusiast. As yet they do not press the "collectability" button (which is great news for us wanting a reliable everyday classic supercar!)

9. They are "renowned" for electrical problems , but no more than any other car of similar ilk and I suspect many issues have arisen because of salty/damp climes.

10. Brakes , tyres etc are no more expensive than a modern cars - and possibly cheaper if you shop around. Exception might be the later GTS models. But e.g. I just sourced a pair of slotted front brake discs (made in W. Germany) for <$300 delivered.

 

 

So as a daily drive? Brilliant (though mine is auto , and lazy instant power makes for relaxed progress - mate has 5 speed and drives it daily...) They are strong and understressed drivetrains and with the coolant/oil/TB services go for many many kms without problems. Even then , when well maintained engines are stripped (head gaskets eventually rot as in all cars) , there is virtually no wear in many of the components.

 

Maintenance records are very important , total km not so important. Genuine Porsche parts and some OEM parts can be pricey but there are some big aftermarket suppliers , well used by Rennlisters and others keeping these cars alive.

 

Don't buy one that needs repainting , or has a tatty interior. A cherished example is worth the wait - think of it an Aston or Ferrari of the same era - and expect similar resto costs. An S4 is more complex and would be expected to cost more to operate than an earlier one with K Jetronic and 16 valve non-interference head. If you live in hot climate and sit in traffic , working AC is a must ; a much better system than the old 911s of course.

 

Economy is pretty good (5L older style V8) and is dependent upon driving habits. It's hard not to put your foot down!

 

Yes they are great daily drives and in the twisties I can push much harder , especially in the wet , than my 911 (which is no slouch). But the driving experience is very different, for many reasons.

 

As I've said elsewhere, I am in a position where I can buy a modern Porsche but for some strange reason , perfectly content with my currently dailies - and at the mo' the 928 is the favourite child. For a car designed in the 70s , it ticks boxes no other cars can get near. "No other car as luxurious is as fast , no other car as fast is as luxurious" etc etc. Fast , reliable and you could also say - cheap. The impossible triad!

 

But get a PPI...

 

PS I ditched the 20 year Landcruiser habit for sports cars - with not a single regret

[f3nr15]

I've always like the 928 and seriously looked at a 928S4 as a possibility when I bought my 944S2. The car was then a daily driver so the cost of the extra fuel and all the rumors of running costs pointed me to the 944 instead.

I know that no Porsche is cheap to own and you should always buy the best one you can afford to avoid paying later in repairs, but what has been the experience of the "Landshark" owners with regard to running / ownership costs? How would you rate a 928S4 as a daily driver in 2014?

Now how do I convince my wife that two Porsche's are so much better than one and that a 928 would do nearly the same job as my dual cab ute day to day I think I'm dreaming lol

Hi Mark,

I bought my 928 GTS as a daily driver when I started work in Auckland at the beginning of the year.

I am a 911 fanatic, and my fondness for the air-cooled ones is no secret. So you have to believe me when I say, the 928 is an amazingly brilliant and capable GT car.

Actually they only suffer from the same problem as the 964 once did, and that is a public misconception that because they are cheap to buy, they should be cheap to maintain. And when unwitting budget buyers realised that they weren't at all cheap to maintain after years of neglect, they developed a reputation of being "unreliable".

Of course, now that the 964 is experiencing a resurgence, suddenly we aren't hearing any more stories about lack of reliability, and that's because people are willing to spend time and money on the required maintenance.

So, what does that mean for you? Don't buy a 928 as a cheap Porsche - buy it as an undervalued expensive Porsche. 928s of any given era SHOULD cost as much or more than the 911s of that era, and that also applies to maintenance.

In my case, I found a relatively low km car with completely documented service history, clean PPI, and then budgeted an extra 10K up front for my OCD plus age-related wear plus any deferred maintenance.

As it turns out, I've had the independent Porsche shop do a full service, timing belt and water pump, new engine mounts, replace the missing rear fender liner ($1K for the liner alone), and then chase up some niggles over time that resulted in the fuel lines being replaced, vacuum lines and junction being rebuilt, alternator being rebuilt, etc etc all to the tune of ~ NZ$8K. After this outlay, I don't anticipate anything other than scheduled servicing for years, however.

Consequently the car has been running like a tank. Ultra reliable in all weather, all traffic, everyday.

The driving experience is polar to the 964; the steering and road feel is heavy at low speeds, but turns into a ballistic missile with your foot down, and the sound is just intoxicating :-)

I wouldn't own a 928 as a manual, just as I wouldn't own a 964 as an automatic; in my view they are perfect complementary cars, each with a specific design and purpose in mind. Actually, I feel a little guilty in saying I'd be hard pressed to choose one over the other at the moment.

Finally, even the 928s are becoming a little thin on the ground, compared to the smorgasbord of previous years, and values of the later model cars are up and up in the US.

[MB911]

Thanks very much for all the excellent information. I've certainly been watching the market a bit and looking at what 928's are going for. 

 

I love the 944, but after owning 5 different Australian and American V8 cars I have the V8 bug again. 

 

We'll see what the future holds, but they definitely have my attention, the right car could sway me. The way that 911 prices have gone I could have the 944 and 928 for the same money as a 3.2 Carrera (obviously a bit more in maintenance costs). 

[tazzieman]

Hi Mark,  my equation was simple , and my wife now sees my logic.

 

Calculate depreciation on a newer car , and things like establishment fees on new purchases, and the fact that new cars are heavy and absolutely chew through expensive tyres and brake components. Then add modern car service costs and insurance.

 

Once a sound 928 is properly sorted , there can be money in your pocket for years to come , compared to the biggest swindle on earth - "low" new car prices followed by exorbitant dealer-dependency & service costs.

 

Plus you get to drive something unique on today's roads, superbly made and ultimately valuable. Many guys have owned a 928 for 20-30 years. There isn't anything that can replace the experience. Smart people know this.

 

I did look seriously at an Aston DBSV8 for that gentleman's express experience , but the overall package made no sense in hard clinical monetary terms.. It would have been an emotional purchase along the lines of a classic Ferrari buyer. And frankly new cars do nothing for me emotionally. Weird to some ,  but true. But any vintage guitar player will tell you the same. (another vice of mine..)

 

Now I must get back into the shed and work on renewing the shark's bearings and brakes. Will then be good for many years...

 

Sorry to fan your inner classic flame 

[MB911]

I couldn't agree with you more Taz on the new versus classic. 

 

A little while ago my wife said "why not sell the Porsche and buy a newer sports car like a new BRZ or new HSV?"  My feeling were very much the same as yours. Nice cars, I looked at the new Clubsport and top of the line BRZ, but they just didn't make me want to buy them.

 

They were fantastic cars, but the thought of losing $10k - $20k in the first few years of depreciation is a bit sickening. They are just too plastic, just missing something, no soul. My 944 still smells exactly the same as it did when it was new, it's just hard to explain how nice and how cool that is every time you get in the car. 

 

Porsches, it's a sickness I'm sure of it

[Coastr]

One of the things I got with my car was a book of all the contemporary road test articles from 1980/81.  This makes for supremely enjoyable reading as road testers - even when a 911 SC was brand new - puzzling over the ventilation controls, finding the gear change long-in-throw and notchy, the AC being a little ordinary and noticing a tendency to tramline.

 

Of course by 1980 everyone was asking when the 911 would be put out to pasture and let the 928 take over.  In that vein, here are two notes from the August 1980 issue of Car and Driver, one by the well-known David E Davis.

 

 

 

 

I guess that attrition never took out the die-hard traditionalists, and the 928 went on to be made for a further 15 years.  I suppose in the long run, there was room enough for both types of buyer?

 

It's just a shame that the traditional 928 buyer is now looking at a Cayenne or a Panamera - for the 928 fans, that is.

 

But comparing to an Audi 5000 Turbo?  David! Please!  I know you had a word quota, but that was unforgivable.

[tazzieman]

Excellent find! Though the whole "928 displacing the 911" myth must be put to bed! 

 

In the 60s Porsche tried to find a solution for a mid engined sports car , which they knew handled better (esp in non-expert hands) but could not overcome the issue of 2+2 seating - required for the big markets such as USA.

 

In 1971 the old guard stepped down , allowing Dr Fuhrmann to step in. The new board were left pondering many questions , not the least of which was the viability of a sports car with old fashioned engineering in a new world of emissions - and safety regulations. Plus as a newly structured company with global market , there was a need to offer more than just one model (Turn to 2014 , very successful decision!).

 

A complete cleansheet design could overcome the inherent problems and be a flexible platform to develop new solutions. The 928 project was launched in 1971 , together with the alternative sports cars such as the 924 and 914 (carrying Porsche through some difficult times & the '73 fuel crisis when thristy noisy sports cars were the ebola of car manufacturing). In the 70s Porsche started to build longevity into their cars , a sign of green global progressive thinking.

 

The 928 project was nearly scuppered , but eventually a completely new design was revealed . Offering phenomenal performance , good space for rich lardaceous arses and a working A/C system , very desirable in the USA where large numbers of cars were exported.

 

The 911 was nearly scuppered due to legislation in the USA. Emissions , safety etc. Turbos were not sold there for years. What kept them going was the 80s financial excesses. The race cars showed that water cooling was mandatory to meet increasing performance concerns for the air cooled engine. With some luck and no doubt fuelled by some nostalgia and racing pedigree, the 911 survived the 80s and then as we know was radically redesigned for 1990 and beyond. 

 

The 928 lasted nearly 20 years , and appealed to a different audience anyway. Drive a poorly ventilated 911 year round,  including the wet and snow and you will understand how old this gets. The 928 was also hand built and more complex. As Toyota showed the way with its lean factory model and mass production took over in the 90s , Porsche's bacon was saved. But by the early 90s , 928 sales were dropping , it had become just too expensive to build and buy - and other luxury GT sports cars had become viable competitors.

 

Neither car was/is bad , but they are poles apart. One was engineered from scratch , the other rooted in 30s technology (up until 1989).  A new 928 owner probably didn't aspire to a 911 anymore than the opposite. Same with 911 vs Panamera today.

 

Unless one reads the details and facts , it is hard to gain an appreciation of the decision making that had to happen in company faced with a myriad of challenges. Good references include "Excellence was expected" and the 1977 opus "Project 928" , all 144 pages of it.

 

I just received a copy of a magazine called "The Car" . From #89 in 1986 comes this piece. 

 

 

 

I am very glad I own a 924, 944, 911 and 928 as each complements the other and has given me a good unbiased understanding of the marque brand.

[Coastr]

The thing is - motoring writers are by and large a predictable lot. It's a job and they have to fill a page. So when they write 911 they have to talk about the tricky handling. When they write about 928 they have to talk about replacing the 911. When they write about Aston martins, they absolutely cannot file an article without a signal James Bond reference. When they write about minis, the Monte Carlo rally has to come up.

The funny thing for me is that those words could have appeared in any publication between the years of 1977 and 1995. And probably for a few years after that.

For that matter, nobody seems to be able to write about the '80s without writing about 'excess'. I lived through the the eighties, and it was pretty austere for most people. There a metric crapload more luxury vehicles sold these days than there was back then.

[tazzieman]

For that matter, nobody seems to be able to write about the '80s without writing about 'excess'. 

True , and true about journalists. Like great politicians they are few and far between and often downright lazy.

But back to excess , before the big bust of '87 there was some excess. Just a little bit here and there.

 

[Coastr]

Hey, at least they have some pants on, unlike the young starlets of today!

[tazzieman]

Hey, at least they have some pants on, unlike the young starlets of today!

To which I would counter in a blustery way , the men today have beards &  tatts , but are no more manly than the gender dysphorics pictured above. 

And as they say , if you shave your .... you've probably got a v......