New 986 - tip doesn't change up under max load

[Ian1]

Hi, I'm a new 986 owner to the forum. Brisbane based. I've wanted a P since driving my first boss' Guards Red 911 Targa from Glasgow to Carlisle in 1985. i spent a long time looking for a 986, inspected just about every Tip and Man between Noosa and NSW and eventually went for a Tip. My thinking was that on a 15-20 year old P, the Tip would have been red lined less.  I've had it for 3 weeks, and it's a weekend 3rd car.

It's got a hardtop and a soft top that looks like it's been folded away its whole life. Perfect. It's a 1997 June build with the front and rear lights changed for the later clear lens lights some time in its past.

It has reasonable history, predominately PBris and PMel services with a sprinkling of Sunshine Coast smaller garages. 4 owners, 87,000kms and wear to match, I can't fault it apart from: - 

on full throttle + kick down, it stutters at 5000revs plus and won't change up. If you back off the throttle it will change up and on anything less than full throttle it works perfectly.

its been de snorkled ( the parts are in the boot) but is 100% Factory apart from that.

any thoughts?

i have 4 sets of school fees, so hence the 986 rather than something later. Also since joining this forum, im starting to stress a bit about the IMS issue. I'd thought low mileage would be good, but now I'm not so sure...

Ian

 

[Niko]

Welcome to the forum Ian.    Great looking 986, they are very underrated.  Hard tops are a must for them I reckon, (especially here in Melbourne.)

 Even read on one of the US sites the other day, they may be a future collectible.   Who knows 

Re your  problem, how does it go if you go manual mode, and use the steering wheel switches to push it thru the gears?

have you spoken to the previous owner, you never know he/she may have had it checked out or been told about if it was serviced at PCB or PCM.

[Macca]

Congratulations on the purchase.  

With the tranny issue I would take it to an Porsche indie with duromatic or autologic and get the codes read. I am assuming the boxster tranny is a Merc 722.6. They are a solid tranny but so many things you could throw money at without fixing it. Codes will lead the mechanic to the issue and fix. It may need a new conductor plate, speed sensor, valve body or just a new fluid and codes that are stored on the TCU cleared. 

Hope it is a quick and inexpensive fix. 

[Ian1]

Thanks guys. Yes, it's a very cute and classy looking early 2.5, I do reckon values are bottoming out on these although the engine issues will probably stop them becoming collectible.

The hardtop does look smart and I love how easy it is to put on and take off, but here in Brisbane, I reckon it will just be stored in my garage.

It's booked into PCB for a service and check over in two weeks, so I'll get them to check the tip codes.

To answer both comments, in manual mode it works perfectly. If I don't floor it, it works perfectly.

ive read up many local and international postings and blogs over the last week or so, and before having the experts look at it, I'm suspicious of the fuel pump, which gave similar symptoms in a US posting.

cheers Macca, I also hope it's a cheap easy fix as well. 

I'm enjoying the forum. 

PS what was the P event last weekend in Brisbane, five 356's and a few old 911's drove past me, heading West on Moggill Rd on Sun morning. Beautiful to see.

[Niko]

Good luck with it Ian, I'm sure PCB will be able to sort it out.   

Could be a dodgy fuel pump, but you would think it would also effect the manual paddle mode as well.   

Keep us up to date here if you don't mind once you get a result.

[Peter M]

 on full throttle + kick down, it stutters at 5000revs plus and won't change up. If you back off the throttle it will change up and on anything less than full throttle it works perfectly.

To answer both comments, in manual mode it works perfectly. If I don't floor it, it works perfectly.

ive read up many local and international postings and blogs over the last week or so, and before having the experts look at it, I'm suspicious of the fuel pump, which gave similar symptoms in a US posting.

 

Could be a dodgy fuel pump, but you would think it would also effect the manual paddle mode as well.   

Ian,

Just to clarify, will it run smoothly to the redline or not?

If it doesn't I'd suggest you sort that out first and suspect that will then solve the transmission "problem".  I'd replace the spark plugs and carefully check the rest of the ignition system.  With fuel pumps they generally work or not at all.

Good luck and tell us how you go as there is always something for the rest of us to learn

[Mike D'Silva]

hi

I'm also located in Brisbane and happy to help if I can.

My gut feel is 99% that a fluid change will fix all your issues... unless you know it has already been done lately and in which case I retract my gut feeling!

[Niko]

hi

I'm also located in Brisbane and happy to help if I can.

My gut feel is 99% that a fluid change will fix all your issues... unless you know it has already been done lately and in which case I retract my gut feeling!

You could be very much  on the money Mike.....

Reminds me of the WHEELER DEALERS show from the UK, where they picked up the early 986 Box tip, which was going very very cheap I think 1500 pounds or something stupid because the transmission was "buggered"  The boys got it back to their workshop changed the fluid and job done.   Back to good as new.

[Peter M]

Assuming the engine will rev to the redline smoothly, checking the fluid level in the transmission would be the next obvious step. 

Given it's only got 87,000km I would think the possibility of a blocked filter/screen in the transmission or the fluid being to deteriorated to build sufficient line pressure to shift would be a long bow.

 

[Mike D'Silva]

fyi, I do have a durametric cable, but it's only the enthusiast version, and I cannot remember how many different cars I have used it on ...(limited to 3 cars)

[Ian1]

hi

I'm also located in Brisbane and happy to help if I can.

My gut feel is 99% that a fluid change will fix all your issues... unless you know it has already been done lately and in which case I retract my gut feeling!

It has had the trans oil, filter and gasket replaced within the last 2 months. It runs smooth and fine to the red line unless it's in kick down. Even then it sometimes changes up, and only sometimes hangs on. 

You could be very much  on the money Mike.....

Reminds me of the WHEELER DEALERS show from the UK, where they picked up the early 986 Box tip, which was going very very cheap I think 1500 pounds or something stupid because the transmission was "buggered"  The boys got it back to their workshop changed the fluid and job done.   Back to good as new.

I watched that some time ago. Great show. I felt a bit sorry for the eventual buyer though.

[Peter M]

Ian,

In that case Ian I don't think anything is broken and you just need to read the section in the drivers manual on Tiptronic

Depending on the speed you open the throttle to WOT I think you are sometimes activating the "sport map" as apposed to the "Driving Miss Daisy" map the transmission is normally in.  There are a number of programs or maps that control shift speeds based on a whole lot of driver and vehicle inputs. 

If you rapidly open the throttle or flutter the throttle it thinks you are just about to tackle some curves with gusto so keeps the car in a lower gear ready for instant acceleration.  The sport map will have some logic that it will only shift to a higher gear if your throttle movements slow down and your throttle angle reduces to less than such and such for such and such seconds.

Don't worry you're not the first to be perplexed by the Tiptronic logic but once you learn how to talk to it is surprising effective and intuitive.   

[Ian1]

Ian,

In that case Ian I don't think anything is broken and you just need to read the section in the drivers manual on Tiptronic

Depending on the speed you open the throttle to WOT I think you are sometimes activating the "sport map" as apposed to the "Driving Miss Daisy" map the transmission is normally in.  There are a number of programs or maps that control shift speeds based on a whole lot of driver and vehicle inputs. 

If you rapidly open the throttle or flutter the throttle it thinks you are just about to tackle some curves with gusto so keeps the car in a lower gear ready for instant acceleration.  The sport map will have some logic that it will only shift to a higher gear if your throttle movements slow down and your throttle angle reduces to less than such and such for such and such seconds.

Don't worry you're not the first to be perplexed by the Tiptronic logic but once you learn how to talk to it is surprising effective and intuitive.   

You could be right. I will have to read the manual, I don't know why I didn't think of that. My only previous Auto experiences are either standard autos with a kickdown or my previous VW which was a GTI DSG, which was very different. That'd be good, if it was just my ignorance. Cheers Peter, I'm off to get the manual out ...

[990SD]

How did you go Ian? Everything now working to plan?

And congrats on the Boxster! I too have a vehicle that can have issues with IMS.  I've installed a magnetic sump plug on the last oil change and plan on yearly or 5000km oil changes to try and keep an eye on things. I remind myself that only things that go wrong end up online.

Enjoy your new set of wheels!

[Tips]

Congratulations on the purchase.  

With the tranny issue I would take it to an Porsche indie with duromatic or autologic and get the codes read. I am assuming the boxster tranny is a Merc 722.6. They are a solid tranny but so many things you could throw money at without fixing it. Codes will lead the mechanic to the issue and fix. It may need a new conductor plate, speed sensor, valve body or just a new fluid and codes that are stored on the TCU cleared. 

Hope it is a quick and inexpensive fix. 

Ian if it's the MB box as Macca suggests then the codes/memory may need to be reset. I have read on Benz forums  where that era box was too smart for itself and was known to adopt the shift and acceleration patterns of the regular driving style. A number of new owners of second hand MB's had similar complaints of non standard shifting. You are now driving it differently however it's still using the previous driving patterns. Might not be the case and could just be the sport map as Peter suggests, however would be good preventative insurance to at least get an Indy to look at the codes for you.

[Peter M]

Tips,

It would be a ZF 5HP19 that have been used by just about everyone else in the late 1990's and early 2000's except MB.

I'm still confident the tranny's fine and the driver just needs some book learning.  But I'm keen to hear the final outcome too.

 

[Mike D'Silva]

Not sure if previously mentioned, but maybe disconnect battery for good 10 minutes.. then reconnect.. It might reset the ecu??

[Peter M]

LOL!  I obviously haven't impressed everyone with my fault finding logic have I Mike!

[Mike D'Silva]

Peter, I have been watching re-runs of The I.T. Crowd.. and when they receive a helpdesk call, the first thing the IT Experts tell the staff, is to "turn it off and on again"!!

 

[Peter M]

Funny you mention that as my wife reckons I remind her of Moss sometimes.

I'm not sure if that's good or bad....

[Niko]

LOL!  I obviously haven't impressed everyone with my fault finding logic have I Mike!

ha ha well you have impressed me for what it's worth.

[Ian1]

Tips,

It would be a ZF 5HP19 that have been used by just about everyone else in the late 1990's and early 2000's except MB.

I'm still confident the tranny's fine and the driver just needs some book learning.  But I'm keen to hear the final outcome too.

 

I'm pretty sure you're right.  I've read it, road tested it and I reckon it's working fine. I was nervous to overshoot the redline and found I hwas unintentionally backing off the loud pedal as it approached the red, therefore the tip was hanging onto the gear. When I read the manual, I took my heart in my mouth and kept my foot down and sure enough it changed bang on the line. I have a bit of learning to do though to enjoy quick acceleration but not having to redline it. The manual is as clear as mud...

I had a BMW 330ci ten years ago that  was fun once I figured out the sport shift auto. This tranny is a whole different ball game...

How did you go Ian? Everything now working to plan?

And congrats on the Boxster! I too have a vehicle that can have issues with IMS.  I've installed a magnetic sump plug on the last oil change and plan on yearly or 5000km oil changes to try and keep an eye on things. I remind myself that only things that go wrong end up online.

Enjoy your new set of wheels!

thanks, 990SD ?, I'm going to try the magnetic sump plug and more regular oil changes too, as recommended by T & D Automotive in Brissie. Then it's just a finger crossing exercise...