Transmission fluid

[Rino]

I have a 2003 996 Tiptronic and have decided that I want to try and service my own transmission including the final drive. Looking at the articles on Pelican Parts website it seems an easy enough process.

I want to use the Porsche recommended oils but the dealerships only sell the specified tranny oil in 20ltr container for about 1k. I have done some research online and it seems Penrite do a full synthetic for a fraction of the price and is the same spec ATF LT 71141.

 

I don’t know if I should shell out the big bucks or use the Penrite product which seems to be the same spec.  

[Merv]

interested. Pelican suggest alternatives.  I see you can get Pentosin ATF-1 by the litre here https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PENTOSIN-AUTOMATIC-TRANSMISSION-FLUID-ATF-1-1-LITRE-/172001058515

[st3ve]

Not Porsche, but as a point of reference a few years back I acquired an 530iT e39 BMW with 225,000km on it.  Long story short I did an engine rebuild on it and once it survived that for a little while decided I would keep it indefinitely.  Of course the transmission oil was the original "lifetime" oil, the trans is a ZF 5HP19.  There is some folklore that says 'if it's that old don't change the oil', I disagreed and changed it.  I figured if I didn't change it then it would certainly blow up at some stage, so nothing much to lose.

First change I dropped the pan and did the filter and the magnets, refilled with Penrite ATF-FS which is an LT71141 certified oil.  Since around half the oil is retained in the torque converter, I then changed it a further 3 times (drain and fill only) after driving for a week or more between each change.  The original oil came out black and each subsequent change was brighter and brighter, the last being quite a clear red coming out but still somewhat dark in quantity.  But obviously so much better.  I think the shifts are a little crisper since the change, but I had no complaints about the operation before doing it and none have surfaced in the ~80,000km since then.  I did it because I felt it gave the trans the best chance of surviving further into old age.

I did it on jack stands, using a 500ml pump to inject the oil, and external temp sensors to get the trans to the right temp for the topping off process. (I didn't have a BMW compatible scanner to read trans temp from CANbus).

I am about to do the same for my (6-sp manual) 996 and I will use the relevant Penrite or Motul gearbox fluid.  Porsche does not make that oil, they don't even make the gearbox.  They just buy something of the type that suits and sell it through their dealer network with a markup to suit.  My take is that as long as you use a good quality oil that is correct for the application, all will be well.

Edited 5July, 2020 by st3ve
Clarified that my 996 is a manual when I referred to a non-ATF fluid which is potentially confusing in a Tiptronic thread

[Rino]

Thanks I will look into their products.

[WB997.2GTS]

10 hours ago, Rino said:

I have a 2003 996 Tiptronic and have decided that I want to try and service my own transmission including the final drive. Looking at the articles on Pelican Parts website it seems an easy enough process.

 

I want to use the Porsche recommended oils but the dealerships only sell the specified tranny oil in 20ltr container for about 1k. I have done some research online and it seems Penrite do a full synthetic for a fraction of the price and is the same spec ATF LT 71141.

 

 

 

I don’t know if I should shell out the big bucks or use the Penrite product which seems to be the same spec.  

 

I recently serviced the PDK transmission in the 997 and bought Porsche branded the oil in 1ltr bottles from Porsche Willoughby. If your dealer does not have it in stock they should be able to obtain it overnight from head office in Melbourne.

[Merv]

Changing the oil on a Tip' can be tricky.  For a start on the drain cycle you may only get out less than half of the oil and several litres may remain in the torque converter. Thus they usually do a couple of cycles of re-filling and running the car to get all the old oil and impediments out (hence the quantity of oil needed I guess).  Also, the correct level is temperature specific and as I understand it, the car needs to be up to temperature. This means running it on the hoist or around the block a few times for each drain cycle.  Too much or too little oil (some suggest even 200cc out) can damage the 'box. 

http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-general-discussions/61760-tiptronic-transmission-oil-change.html

Of course, if your current oil isn't dirty or burned and filter OK, a partial drain may be enough.  The recommended schedule for changing is the 996 Schedule that I have is 144K kms.

[Rino]

After all the research I just go back to what the dealership recommends to be approved by Porsche. All the other oils probably will work just fine but my OCD tells me to go with the specified.

If I bought the 20Ltr container would anyone in Sydney around the Ryde area be interested in sharing the cost?

 

[WB997.2GTS]

Read my previous post re Oil. 
I have just crossed the PDK & Tiptronic oils on the Auto-atlanta site and the same part no is used for both oils. Ring Dave or Rick at Porsche Willoughby as they have 1ltr bottles in stock or get it overnight. 

[Rino]

I contacted the Willoughby dealership and they only sell in 20ltr tubs

[WB997.2GTS]

Rino, try this number 999917546, cross check it on the Autoatlanta site

[Merv]

I can do as much as possible myself but this is one job I would still think about. Getting all the old oil out and then in, the entire system is the problem. I would also call my local Indy and ask how much oil they use in a flush and fill.

[StevepGT3]

1 hour ago, Merv said:

I can do as much as possible myself but this is one job I would still think about. Getting all the old oil out and then in, the entire system is the problem. I would also call my local Indy and ask how much oil they use in a flush and fill.

No one gets it all out unless they pull it apart, the ones I have done end up taking about 50%

[st3ve]

You don't remove all the oil, you drain what will come out (as mentioned about 50% of the total system capacity) and refill to the fill plug.  It's not particularly difficult but there is a specific procedure which needs to be done exactly right and it needs the car dead level (on 4 stands at the least).  Refilling is easiest with a big oil syringe.  I used this:

https://au.macnaught.com/fluid-handling/macnaught/oil-equipment/oil-pumps/suction-gun-500ml-drawing-revision-4

But yeah, if you're not totally comfortable with all this, best taking it somewhere and getting it done.  Being under a running car at home on jack stands is not the most pleasant experience, no matter how secure the stands are.  Given this only needs doing occasionally, OPC or a trusted indy specialist is possibly money well spent presuming they do it correctly.  When i looked around for someone to do the BM the local transmission specialist wanted to use normal Dex4 so I didn't trust they would do it correctly or use the right oil.  Local BM Indy didn't want a bar of it, I suspect they'd been bitten by people with transmission issues getting their oil changed and blaming subsequent failure on the shop.

According to wikipedia the 996 used either the same ZF 5HP19 as my BM (albeit with the transaxle addition), or an MB transmission.  You'd have to know what you have and what procedure each version requires exactly.  For example, does the transaxle have a separate oil to the auto trans?  I'm sure the answers are easy enough to dig up but you have to do your own due diligence.

[Peter M]

7 hours ago, StevepGT3 said:

No one gets it all out unless they pull it apart, the ones I have done end up taking about 50%

The method I like is to disconnect the line to the transmission cooler and using your selection of vinyl hoses from Bunnings have the discharge hose into a large bucket and a big funnel into the the intake hose.  Start the engine and at idle try to match your pouring with the discharge!  Keep flushing until the colour of the discharge matches the new oil.  Reconnect the cooler line and then do final fluid level check and adjust.

If the replacement fluid is reasonably affordable it's not too stressful, but Transmax Z (wonderful stuff for 4HP's !  It's almost clear so you get a fair idea how diluted it is with old fluid as you go)  and other pricey synthetic's it feels like flushing $50 bills down the toilet!

 

 

[StevepGT3]

11 minutes ago, Peter M said:

The method I like is to disconnect the line to the transmission cooler and using your selection of vinyl hoses from Bunnings have the discharge hose into a large bucket and a big funnel into the the intake hose.  Start the engine and at idle try to match your pouring with the discharge!  Keep flushing until the colour of the discharge matches the new oil.  Reconnect the cooler line and then do final fluid level check and adjust.

If the replacement fluid is reasonably affordable it's not too stressful, but Transmax Z (wonderful stuff for 4HP's !  It's almost clear so you get a fair idea how diluted it is with old fluid as you go)  and other pricey synthetic's it feels like flushing $50 bills down the toilet!

 

 

I did that with my Lexus and still have a 20 liter container with quick release fittings up on the shelf, but recently did my Audi and it would have required too much disassembly so just dumped , filled, dumped, changed filter and refilled, looks clean but plan to dump. and fill at next engine oil change.

[Merv]

"You don't remove all the oil, you drain what will come out (as mentioned about 50% of the total system capacity) and refill to the fill plug. "

I know it is easy to do that, but I really can't see the point in changing half the transmission oil and leaving the old 50% of potentially contaminated oil in there. There is no need to take it all apart as the correct procedure involves 2 or even 3 cycles.  Also too much oil, even if added at the correct temperature, (as little as 200mls) can damage the system.

[st3ve]

My original post said I did it 4 times, that should give you 6.25% old oil remaining which is a pretty good start. Better than "the oil lasts the lifetime of the gearbox" manufacturer bs at any rate!

It's a very specific, but very simple process. To leave 200mls too much you would have to do it very wrong.

[Merv]

Sorry Steve you did say that earlier, and it seems a good process. So if the system drops out up to half each time, then around 10litres of fluid would be needed?

[st3ve]

No worries at all, didn't mean to sound snippy.  👌  My take is just that this maintenance item has become quite feared for not a lot of good reason since autos went to 'lifetime fluid'.  There are specific procedures that must be adhered to, but if you do it's simple enough.

I like the sound of the bucket method described, it would certainly get the job done more quickly/efficiently, although it sounds perhaps a bit more 'busy' with a few things going on at once and not wanting to let it run dry on the inlet side.  The simple dump and fill procedure I used took place over a period of a few weeks, since I would drive it for a week in between each change.  It's hard to do more than 1 change without letting the whole thing cool right down, as the gearbox temp rose too quickly with a hot motor.  I ended up letting it drain overnight and doing the fill the next day.  No stress.

One of the things contributing to me doing the dump and fill was the fact my car was very high mileage on original fluid. It's possibly just fear again, but there were stories getting around that "power flush" type methods used in a transmission shop might dislodge deposits that had accumulated in nooks and crannies of the box and let them into the oil flow to block any of the numerous fine passages in the valve plate.  No idea if there's any truth to it, but dump and fill sounded safest to me on an old gearbox.

I should probably shut up anyway since my experience was on a BMW 5HP19, not a Porsche one.  Talking about capacities certainly could invoke confusion, especially as Porsche seems to use way more fluids than most other cars.  In any case, doing dump and fill x4 would likely use close to 20l or perhaps more.  I think I used at least four and possibly five x 4lt Penrite ATF FS in the BMW 5HP19.  It IS a wasteful method, probably not the procedure to use with overpriced stealership oil! 

NOTE: I edited my original post which mentioned using a totally different oil in my 996, but my P-car is a manual!

[Merv]

Nice summary Steve. Should help others, me included. The 20L s now making sense.

[st3ve]

5 hours ago, Merv said:

Nice summary Steve. Should help others, me included. The 20L s now making sense.

Cheers, and if Rino wants genuine fluid then its possibly cheaper to just get it done by OPC since they will require less fluid doing the flush method. I doubt it would be a $1k job but then again I'm new to the Porsche world... 😆

[Rino]

I was actually quoted 1k from an independent Porsche shop. Having the Tip service done by a Porsche dealership would cost more no doubt.

I have gotten to the bottom of all this and found the correct fluid to use on the Tip is FUCHS 000-043-304-01-B49. They are ready available in 1 ltr bottles and only $18 each.  

[Merv]

The Pentosin is available on eBay at $25/L.  You will probably need around 9.5L.