Honest Opinions & Some What Of A Reality Check For Myself 911

[Steve88]

Hey guys still a new born in the Porsche World . i tend to know my way around American older cars are we have a small collection of those in the family but i have always Swooned over 911`s.

 

With my lack of knowledge also comes more lack of actual cost and numbers in relation to building the car i want in my garage , so here is the plan and as always all comments are advice are greatly appreciated .

 

For my air cooled project i would like a vintage looking 911  somewhere from 68-73 . I like the profile and the chrome accents around the windows and the some-what basic interior . 

 

But Im very open to the idea of a nice backdate but unsure how modern i can purchase to attain the retro- race  / simple / clean look . I have seen a few videos and options to delete impact numbers and so forth and i would imagine that all the earlier parts with some fiddling can be fitted onto a more modern donor. 

 

How modern can i go ?? I know an SC will work but can i go as new as a 964?? 

 

This brings me to my next hurdle ,cost. 

 

What i do have at my disposal is interior , paint and body . I don't need to fret about these things as I'm owed in some regards in the Karma world  ( put out good vibes) , But in saying so if i had to do a bare metal and cut out panels and stuff i think Karma will only get me so far .

 

Im not fussed about the colour or the current condition of the paint for what I'm looking to get i would solely like to have it astetically  awesome in the sense that it looks slick.  Rough as guts inside and out cool for now i just want it to boogie. 

 

Leading to my next series of questions  " How does one make a 911 act as intended " 

 

I like to go fast and i like bottom end power . I have been in a few 911`s and i really just want to do its thing and a little more . I live in an are with winding open roads and will wanting to get the best out of the car and myself. 

What would you guys recommend ? 

Should i look at an SC with a 3ltr? Carrera with a 3.2? or if i found a 2.2 or small displacement engine worth with that? 

What represents value for money  , performance and reliability?

I have been told its a popular choice to source a 964 3.6 and put them in an older shell?

 

Pairing with this engine i understand regardless what i get i will be needing to refresh the transmission and  all other components to support the new engine ?

 

Im at a loss in some regards as i know what i look the look and feel of but i don't know where to start. 

I guess a later model like an SC or 964 would suit if i could backdate but i would love a late 60`s early 70`s and beef of the engine . I just really need to know where to start.

 

So i guess this is what I'm asking :

1. What would you buy ?

2. What would you do to it?

3. How much in a ball park are would you think it would cost "to do what you would do ?"

 

Below are a few images of what i was thinking in terms of look / body shape some maybe cliche i know but i like what i like 

 

Thanks haps in advance this forum has been a wealth of information for me and I'm eager to hear your responses from actual owners and people who have undertaken similar projects to what I'm looking at 

 

Regards

Steve

[hugh]

Hi Steve,

 

my 2 cents for what its worth..............In response to your questions;

 

1. Value for money and ability to freely modify the car I'd be looking at SC's. If your on a 'budget' they are a cheaper base than a 3.2 and also have a gal body unlike the earlier cars that are going to command many more dollars - especially considering your intentions to modify it extensively. 964's pose other considerations, potentially more expensive again to a good SC or 3.2 and being more modern are less adaptable than the earlier cars. 

2. Depends on budget, minimum strip back car, replace bumpers, boot lids etc. and get the mechanical's sorted - a strong 3.0L can still be a whole lot of fun in a stripped out/light narrow bodied SC. 

3. 25-30k for donor car 15-20 to get it sorted mechanically, suspension etc. (+ body + interior) as a ball park budget. I'd say its at least a 50k project for car and mechanical - but again it really depends on what you want as this is far from an exact science. The cars you have pictured there would be 100-150k+ cars if you were to have them built here professionally based on a good early model 911. 

 

Unfortunately these are not easy questions to answer or quantify with a figure - I have extensively modified my 3.0L and know many others who have done projects like this to various degrees - at the end of the day it all comes down to the donor car and what you want to make of it or what you can justify spending on it. I would suggest from experience that it is something that once you start you wont want to shortcut or compromise given that it really requires a considerable initial investment (as opposed to a Jap car for example). 

 

I hope that helps. 

[Steve88]

Mate that helps heaps. Thanks a lot. I could imagine those pictured cars costing a great deal. I think an SC may be the thing

Steve

[Airhead]

Save yourself the grief and the cost and buy one that somebody else has already built.

Unless you really want to go down the "I built it myself" path.

[JV911]

Depends how much work you can do yourself but even then 50k is very optimistic. I toyed with the idea of backdating a 964 recently but abandoned it because it was too expensive, plus it's been done before. 

 

Assuming you’re paying someone:

 

25-30k - for a donor SC (on which you could spend 10k just fixing lots of little things before you even start modifying)

Engine - 25k for full rebuild with cams, ported heads, valves etc. (Could quickly become 50k if you start doing things like upping displacement and adding throttle bodies...and 80k if you go mental!)

SSI headers, Monty exhaust, oil lines etc. - 5k

Suspension - 5k

Turbo brakes - 3k

Interior - 5k

Paint - 15k

New body seals/rubbers - 2k

New head and tail lights, rear reflector - 2k

Backdate kit (front guards, bonnet, front & rear bumpers) - 10k 

Already at 110k without even trying. Could easily be 150+

 

Other considerations:

 

Roll cage?

Wheels?

Gearbox?

964 instead? More like a 50k donor

If the aircon is cactus but you definitely want aircon 5-8k

 

 

Not trying to burst your bubble, just putting things in perspective. If you’re set on a backdated car, it has been pretty popular in recent years (places like Zag were churning them out) so you may be able to pick one up for less than what it would cost to do it yourself. Although personally if I has an SC or 3.2 I’d be restoring it to its former glory with upgrades to engine, brakes, suspension and RS interior as they are becoming rarer an more valuable. 

[Coastr]

Why don't you look for a forward-dated model.  Plenty of SCs were updated with 964 parts.  Some even got the 3.6 engine.

 

Those are out of favour (mostly) at the moment.  Seeing as you're going to pull the panels off anyway, you could find one of these and put the backdate panels on.    You might even get some $$ for things like ridiculous fibreglass wings and the like.

[Steve88]

JV911 thanks heaps i would prefer to be on the wiser side than the regretful . I think that a fair estimate. i think at this stage i may be sticking to a Carrera 3.2 and doing a few minor things but if needed an engine rebuild would see if get the full treatment

I had no idea on how much an engine rebuild costs on these bad boys .I think if anything i would have to strongly consider if the cost is also worth the upgrade 3.2 to 3.4 with all the parts and stuff . 

 

Another part that i was dreading was the integrity of stuff like joints , seals and so forth as i know small parts as they can add up too.

 

I had no clue on how much a backdate body kit costs  i would be safe to say that would be a pass at this stage

 

Thanks again guys as i really need all the information i can get on this as i really need to be prepared for what may be around the corner . 

 

regards

Steve

[clutch-monkey]

if you are handy with a spanner you could get the rebuild in under 10k doing it yourself. majority of cost is in workshop labour ( at specialists rates!) as the engines take a bit of time to assemble. but there's nothing rocket science in there as long as you go down a proven path when selecting upgrades

[Steve88]

Thanks clutch Monkey. That is food for thought. I don't mind taking it out and taking it apart. I doubt if there is much. Cn do myself after this part.

Being new to the Porsche world it is some what scary at the cost of some parts and so forth but it is what it is hey

I think that I should really look into a PPI at a specialist place down here to get some sound advice in if it needs a rebuild any time soon or if there is any evidence of a previous rebuilt or worst off abuse.

Thanks for all the feed back guys really appreciate all the advice

Steve

[e72phil]

I agree with JV911 on his costings.  Clutch Monkey - not sure about your $10K engine rebuild but if you need a new set of P & C's then your budget can get blown very quickly. Will you do your own tunnel boring of the case, head work, valve guides etc ? I have  had rebuilt several 911 engines, albeit, early ones (2.0 and 2.4L) and there's no change out of $25-30K these days. the bucks are in the parts, not the labour these days if its a complete rebuild using many new parts.

 

Maybe you can get away spending less on a 3.2 engine, but I doubt it.  Depends on how many bits you want to re-use and of course, the actual condition of the engine before rebuild. Getting a good PPI before you buy is critical unless you are well versed in these cars and know exactly what you are looking for. One of the biggest problems in getting your first P car is yr lack of experience with the marque and how the cars are supposed to feel and drive.  

 

Catch 22.

[JV911]

if you need a new set of P & C's then your budget can get blown very quickly. 

 

yep!

 

$5,500 USD is the best i've found for Mahle P&C (3.8 in this case but the price doesn't vary much)

 

That's $7k ish once GTS, duty and postage is added. Then there is machining and anything else that might need replacing i.e. valves, guides, springs, retainers, rockers, cams etc etc ETC

 

PPI is a must as is speaking to the workshop who knows the history of the car. 

[clutch-monkey]

I agree with JV911 on his costings.  Clutch Monkey - not sure about your $10K engine rebuild but if you need a new set of P & C's then your budget can get blown very quickly. Will you do your own tunnel boring of the case, head work, valve guides etc ? I have  had rebuilt several 911 engines, albeit, early ones (2.0 and 2.4L) and there's no change out of $25-30K these days. the bucks are in the parts, not the labour these days if its a complete rebuild using many new parts.

 

Maybe you can get away spending less on a 3.2 engine, but I doubt it.  Depends on how many bits you want to re-use and of course, the actual condition of the engine before rebuild. Getting a good PPI before you buy is critical unless you are well versed in these cars and know exactly what you are looking for. One of the biggest problems in getting your first P car is yr lack of experience with the marque and how the cars are supposed to feel and drive.  

 

Catch 22.

my pricing may be a little out of date but the last rebuild i had was 14k- no idea if P&C's were reuseable. last top and bottom refresh i did a few years back was 11k at a workshop. i could see it easily blowing out to 17-20k with new P&C's, but if the engine is basically healthy and you can do lots yourself i think 10-15k is reasonable estimate.

[Steve88]

I think a PPI is a go. I don't have all the info at the moment but I remember the kind being around 270,000 and there was no mention of any rebuilds. I'll have to try the guy again and see what the go is.

How rare would it be to have one at 270000 without any re-builds ?

Thanks for all the advice.

[Steve88]

270,000 kms sorry

[e72phil]

Even with regular oil changes and caring for the engine, 270,000kms is probably a good run for this engine and time to consider the rebuild. Compression tests and looking for smoke at start up and deceleration will indicate problems with top end of engine and you may be able to get away with heads and valve work. Maybe some new rings but if you have gone to the trouble of tearing the engine down to a certain stage, may as well do it properly and get another 300K our of it.

 

Engines do wear out as do other parts which get old, cracked and brittle.  While you are at it, you probably need to look into the gearbox as well as this too has travelled the 270,000kms too. Synchros, bearings and clutches all wear out too.

 

My feelings about rebuilds are to do it properly, then keep the car as you know whats been done to it.  I have kept my 72E coupe now over 10 years during which time its had just about everything rebuilt. It drives and runs like a swiss watch and is a keeper as all items are a very known entity.

[clutch-monkey]

my pricing may be a little out of date but the last rebuild i had was 14k- no idea if P&C's were reuseable. last top and bottom refresh i did a few years back was 11k at a workshop. i could see it easily blowing out to 17-20k with new P&C's, but if the engine is basically healthy and you can do lots yourself i think 10-15k is reasonable estimate.

steve just got a quote for standard rebuild of 993 3.6: 12k. sport cams, head rebuilt. re-using pistons (they are fine).

[Steve88]

steve just got a quote for standard rebuild of 993 3.6: 12k. sport cams, head rebuilt. re-using pistons (they are fine).

Would you think an early Carrera would run around the same price for a full rebuild?

I would imagine so. I was told that when doing a rebuild to upgrade from 3.2 to 3.4 won't cost a great deal more as there isn't too much extra involved.

I havnt been able to get hold of the guy but I do anticipate a full rebuild on motor and tRans will be needed

So automatically i will have to shell out

$12-15k engine and $5k trans ,plus exhaust , chip and tune and some new wheels. All up maybe $26k.

If I can get the car for $35k would you get it knowing that it needs the motor and trans rebuilt soon. The other options are just personal taste

I was truly contemplating just doing an LS1 conversion and I'll be like $13k ahead

The other thing I know nothing about is suspension. Someone mentioned that for a good set up there will be no change from $3k

Bit confused as for like $50 I may be better off getting a Carrera 964 (C4)

Any advice would be appreciated. Mate

Also the paint , body and interior of the Carrera 3.2 is perfect.

Thanks Steve

[SteamWolf]

I started my career as an engine reconditioner. Re-using pistons is called a 're-ring' and not a rebuild. It is something I personally have a lot of trouble accepting when I hear of rebuilds with old pistons.  Nothing wrong with reusing old pistons if the bores are good and the pistons themselves are within spec, but it should be called what it really is.

 

Having said that, I'm not sure why pistons and barrels are so damn expensive either.  A full set of custom pistons for competition is usually about a grand for six cylinders, so that would assume the barrels are $4k worth of fabrication.  Seems disproportionate to me!

[clutch-monkey]

Would you think an early Carrera would run around the same price for a full rebuild?

I would imagine so. I was told that when doing a rebuild to upgrade from 3.2 to 3.4 won't cost a great deal more as there isn't too much extra involved.

I havnt been able to get hold of the guy but I do anticipate a full rebuild on motor and tRans will be needed

So automatically i will have to shell out

$12-15k engine and $5k trans ,plus exhaust , chip and tune and some new wheels. All up maybe $26k.

If I can get the car for $35k would you get it knowing that it needs the motor and trans rebuilt soon. The other options are just personal taste

I was truly contemplating just doing an LS1 conversion and I'll be like $13k ahead

The other thing I know nothing about is suspension. Someone mentioned that for a good set up there will be no change from $3k

Bit confused as for like $50 I may be better off getting a Carrera 964 (C4)

Any advice would be appreciated. Mate

Also the paint , body and interior of the Carrera 3.2 is perfect.

Thanks Steve

only you can answer that steve- if for a sum total of 60k you have a 3.2 carrera with all new driveline, does that seem worth it to you? a clean carrera 3.2 with fresh drivetrain, at that price is not far off it's worth, but i would try to get it cheaper if possible.

[JV911]

Would you think an early Carrera would run around the same price for a full rebuild?

 

 

yes, much of a muchness except with the 3.2 you have chip and MAF (or is it MAP?) to add. Fewer tuning options with the CIS on the SC

 

3.4 Mahle P&C set is > $5000 USD plus duty, plus GST, plus postage, plus additional machining 

 

You mention a 3.2 with perfect paint, body and interior - do you know what shop has been servicing it? It would be wise to speak to them. So you can find out exactly what you're up for.

 

oh and LS1 conversions make baby jesus cry 

[SteamWolf]

Oh, I dunno, it's a combination of my two favorite engineering masterpieces - the 911 and the LSx.

[JV911]

Plenty of other projects for the LS

 

I'll pop one in a retro-tech VK Group A replica or HQ one day

[Steve88]

Sorry JV. What is this "3.4 Mahle P&C set is > $5000 USD plus duty, plus GST, plus postage, plus additional machining"

Pistons and Cam?

[JV911]

Pistons and Cylinders

 

Cams are another $1k or so

[clutch-monkey]

Oh, I dunno, it's a combination of my two favorite engineering masterpieces - the 911 and the LSx.

would really kill the value, if you were worried about that.

i've wondered about an Ls3 in a boxster though..