tazzieman Posted 11March, 2015 Report Share Posted 11March, 2015 Worth a read http://www.heacockclassic.com/articles/the-front-engine-porsches/ e.g. re the 928 The 928 was given priority at Porsche AG, and the design for the body handed over to chief stylist Tony Lapine, who had joined Porsche in 1969 as Ferdinand Alexander “Butzi” Porsche’s assistant. Now the former General Motors stylist faced a heroic challenge. This was not to carry on tradition, as he had been taught; this was to begin a new one! In 1977 Porsche introduced a car that achieved the goal. I attended the 928’s American press preview at the Ontario Motor Speedway in 1977 along with Dean Batchelor who was my boss at Car Classics magazine (later to become Car Collector). What I remember mostly about that day in 1977 was remarking to Dean how strange looking the 928 appeared. I had driven many Porsches, even taken a liking to the 914/6 GT and the new 924, although with some reservations about the latter. The 928 left me at a loss for words. In my mind it wasn’t a Porsche, it lacked the sounds and sensations of a 911, yet it handled better than any of the venerable, rear-engined models I had ever driven. Batchelor, who had been with Road & Track for 16 years before becoming director of the Harrah Collection in Reno, and then Editor of Car Classics, was equally impressed with the 928. We came away with the realization that Porsche had just rewritten the book on sports car design, engineering, and performance, but we also wondered had they also cut their own throat in so doing, had they just rendered the 911 obsolete? More than 30 years later the question has answered itself, the 911 remains the most successful and endearing sports car design in history, and the front engine Porsches are gone. In 1977, however, those of us whose job it was to report on the automotive industry were thinking it might be otherwise. The 928 was novel, not simply because it was powered by a liquid-cooled V8, but rather because it was the first model in the company’s history that Porsche had designed entirely on its own. It was, in point of fact, the first real Porsche sports car. It contained no VW parts, no Audi engine or suspension, no major component invented outside of Zuffenhausen or Weissach. To the enlightened it was an epiphany but to the traditionalists, the canons of Porsche design had been thrown out the window. To Porsche purists the 928 was an aberration. Unlike the new four-cylinder 924, which replaced the 914 as an entry-level model, the 928 was a high-performance sports car, a dissimilar but nonetheless competitive alternative to the 911 and the operative word was alternative. From a marketing perspective the company had sailed into uncharted waters with the 928 and they would either find the New World or fall off the edge of the earth. A decade after its debut, Ferry Porsche’s assessment of the 928’s success was remarkably revealing. “The 928 and 928 S are now outstanding cars with better road-holding and more powerful brakes than the 911. They will form the basis of our model range for a long time; since there is no doubt that they still have much development potential.” As the company’s founder and Chairman of the Supervisory Board, Ferry Porsche’s glowing endorsement of the 928 in 1989 seemed to guarantee the future of the front-engine model lines, which also included the successors to the 924 – the 944 and 944 Turbo. At the same time Porsche made a point of emphasizing the continued importance of the 911, which was then in its 25th year of production. “…we would be in a very bad position today if the 911 had been discontinued. I am absolutely clear in my mind about that,” said Porsche. Though the two cars continued to travel their separate roads, just as Ferry had found a place in his heart for both, enthusiast owners were finding garage space to be shared by the 911, 944 and 928. Since its introduction in March 1977 at the Geneva auto show, the 928 had established benchmarks for all other manufacturers of luxury GTs. The car’s groundbreaking design offered an all-aluminum engine, the extensive use of aluminum alloy in the bodywork, and transaxle layout, setting new standards in automotive engineering. Porsche’s continuous development kept the 928 at the forefront of technology throughout its 18-year production run. Porsche’s multilink Weissach toe-correcting rear suspension, a feature of the 928 from the very beginning, marked a departure in suspension design. The Weissach axle design employed upper transverse links, lower semi-trailing control arms, and adjustable coil springs over gas pressure shock absorbers. The key to the Weissach axle was a flexible link in each semi-trailing arm, which added a toe correcting characteristic under high cornering loads. In effect, the Weissach rear axle design offered a form of “four-wheel steering” long before the concept gained popularity. A 0.89 inch (92.5mm) stabilizer bar completed the rear suspension design. The 928’s front suspension consisted of unequal length aluminum alloy control arms, telescoping shock absorbers, coil springs, and a 1.1-inch (28mm) hollow stabilizer bar. Although the 928 was an all-new car for Porsche, it embodied 30 years of experience in designing and building sports and racing cars. The dynamic behavior of the 928 was the result of advanced-testing and experimentation, as well as experience on the racetrack. The results were an uncompromising combination of suspension, steering, and braking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M Posted 11March, 2015 Report Share Posted 11March, 2015 Great article Taz, thanks for posting.The U.S. regulations that had put the fear into Porsche never materialized to the extent that the 911 would be legislated off the American road. The 928 had leveled the playing field for the American market, only to be driven from it almost two decades later by the 911, the very car it had been created to protect. Even though on almost every objective measure the 928 was a more sensible product, I still can't fathom why it disappeared and the 911 is still here. I know we are not rational beings but I still haven't come across a plausible answer in all the reading I have done. As for the above quote I think the 928 was created to protect Porsche and not the 911 specifically as they just didn't expect it would continue much through the '70's let alone into the next century. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberpunky Posted 11March, 2015 Report Share Posted 11March, 2015 Interesting read. Only issue I have is one of omission and that was that the 87 Turbo 944 was the first car in the world with dual airbags as standard, but by that point in the article it was all about the 928 lol A mention of the Lemans effort and cup series would have been nice but it was more about the politics and history, so I guess omitting that was fair enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 11March, 2015 Report Share Posted 11March, 2015 I know we are not rational beings but I still haven't come across a plausible answer in all the reading I have done. The answer lies in the transmission choice. Towards the end, something like 80% were autos, which showed they were not in the sports market but the luxury gt market. And that's not a market that brims with enthusiasts. It's also easy to forget in hindsight it was very, very expensive to buy. The 911 was always better bang for your buck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 11March, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 11March, 2015 One other thing , those of you who've visited the USA will know that many American bums are rather large . It is a squueze getting comfortable in a 911 and I've seen some terribly worn out seats (110kg bum big difference to say 70kg). The 928 was squarely aimed at US buyers who were in the late 60s even apparently demanding more luxury and more comfort (as they got stuck in longer traffic jams , not to mention the need for a proper air con system in places like Texas , Florida and California.) Funny thing is tt's happened in Oz now and we're blessed with 911s with all the luxo goodies. The early manual trans was a bit weak ; the auto was a MB unit and very strong & reliable thus plug & play - and again , the US market with its long traffic queues were not really into heavy clutches and 5 speed manuals - and their trophy wives couldn't drive "stick" either! In most instances then & now , the market dictates what is produced , at least in volume markets. They made a helluva lot of 924s . 944s and 928s when you compare to other high end sports car mfrs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 11March, 2015 Report Share Posted 11March, 2015 Yes but that's my point. People were buying the cars for traffic jams and trophy wives, not as sports cars. These people typically see them as a luxury accessory and are not necessarily enthusiasts to the brand or the vehicle. These types of peoples also have no loyalty. And that's why the 928 disappeared (or more correctly, why the 911 turbo took over its role and left the widow maker role of the 930 to the turbo s/gt2) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGB Posted 11March, 2015 Report Share Posted 11March, 2015 Nup, I'm not convinced... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 12March, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 12March, 2015 Coastr they also developed the 928 for Europeans who were used to autobahns and 250km/hr without dramas and some sporty roads too if you've been there The development history is very interesting and they tested it most rigorously so it would be truly bulletproof. Which it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGB Posted 12March, 2015 Report Share Posted 12March, 2015 In order to countenance the yanky doodle fat @rsed claims above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 12March, 2015 Report Share Posted 12March, 2015 You guys are totally missing my point, so I'm going to give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 12March, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 12March, 2015 Off to Walmart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 12March, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 12March, 2015 Lots of speculating on forums. Get out there and test drive , then report back. I'd back my 928 against my 911 on any road anyday. Very happy to take on a 930 in the local twisties too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M Posted 12March, 2015 Report Share Posted 12March, 2015 Since we can't actually put a finger on why Porsche's premium and most expensive car of the day is so overlooked nowadays, this begs the question: Why do we bother with old 911's when you can get so much more in a 928? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 12March, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 12March, 2015 Why do we bother with old 911's when you can get so much more in a 928? Pete dangles his lure Because as they are based on VWs they are easy and cheap to fix at home. And they look cute. And because they have a racing heritage. And , and...they are the people's Porsche. As I've said , 928s are rubbish. Best left to garbage collectors like me & KBG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberpunky Posted 12March, 2015 Report Share Posted 12March, 2015 Not sure how the first ever all Porsche designed car got away with a MB gear box ;P Personally I love the shark and would have a GTS in a heart beat, only 2 problems that prevent it from happening. 1 It would have to be a manual. Do they ever come up for sale ? 2 paying for it lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 12March, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 12March, 2015 Not sure how the first ever all Porsche designed car got away with a MB gear box ;P Only the auto was MB. The 70s were a bad bad time to be in the luxury sports car market. Porsche were facing tough financial and legislative times and their attempts to broaden the product base with the 914 and 924 had not been as successful as they had liked or would have hoped. The main thing was the (risky) resolve to commit a huge amount of capital towards designing a completely new car ; obviously a new auto box could have been designed but the bean counters decreed an off the shelf" unit would suffice. the "clean sheet" Porsche manifesto was written in the early 70s. Stuff changes over time. They didn't design K Jetronic or the tyres either. And there was no attempt to breed special German cows for the sumptuous interiors. They had to make do with the Pascha bovine line. The only way to get a proper overview of the magnitude of Porsche's task is to spend an hour or so reading the pdf of the history of the 928 development. http://928classics.com/4/post/2013/09/project-928-a-development-history-of-the-porsche-928-from-first-sketch-to-production.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGB Posted 12March, 2015 Report Share Posted 12March, 2015 I happened to find myself driving my VW based 964 this morning. Nice, but it's no 928. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANF Posted 12March, 2015 Report Share Posted 12March, 2015 Porsche and Mercedes have had a few "collaborations" over the years. one is the 500E from 91-94 "The 500 E was created in close cooperation with Porsche; each 500 E was hand-built by Porsche, being transported back and forth between the Mercedes plant and Porsche's Rossle-Bau plant in Zuffenhausen" much sought after car! I often wonder after owning a few Mercs how hard (or easy) it would be to replace the Merc 4sp auto with a 5 speed auto? The one in my E320 would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 12March, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 12March, 2015 I happened to find myself driving my VW based 964 this morning. Nice, but it's no 928. OK I'll buy the fact that the 964 has a rear air cooled engine , but other than that it was a radical redesign of the flawed Carrera and its predecessors! Not to mention the suspension , straight from the 928 book . And other luxobarge stuff like power steering , "ice cold" aircon and airbags and in many cases a non DIY transmission option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGB Posted 13March, 2015 Report Share Posted 13March, 2015 ..radical redesign... radical ˈradɪk(ə)l/ adjective adjective: radical 1. (especially of change or action) relating to or affecting the fundamental nature of something; far-reaching or thorough. Schtuttgart were having a lend of the English language a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastr Posted 13March, 2015 Report Share Posted 13March, 2015 It's very common for companies to buy in an auto trans. These days most cars (including Porsche) all come with ZF trans - BMW, Audi, VW, Porsche - all have the same basic ZF unit in them, albeit with differences in cases and ratios for application. BMWs used to come with GM(!) transmissions in some cases. Most of these are developments of the original tiptronic ZF trans found in the 964 and then used for lots of other cars. Benz has always insisted on making their own I think, so was a logical choice for Porsche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 13March, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 13March, 2015 Schtuttgart were having a lend of the English language a bit. The "80% new" got the punters in though. They were in große Mühe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGB Posted 13March, 2015 Report Share Posted 13March, 2015 They were in große Mühe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzieman Posted 13March, 2015 Author Report Share Posted 13March, 2015 AT THE very thought of his first impressions of Porsche, Chihiro Nakao claps both hands to his head and shakes it vigorously 'It was appalling,' he exclaims. 'Where is the car factory, I asked myself. It looks like a mover's warehouse. And there were no workers, just apes clambering up and down shelves.' Hopping into bed with Toyota was indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M Posted 13March, 2015 Report Share Posted 13March, 2015 Great link Tazzie, thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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