UK Cat D 3.2 Carrera

[SimonN]

My thought is that this is yet another good reason never to touch a UK import, even with the longest of barge poles...

Thanks for the heads-up, Simon!

Sorry, while you are entitled to your view, it seems rather ill informed. The rules in the UK are far stricter than here in Oz which makes it safer to buy. I was close to buying a 911 over here about a month ago that I found had been rolled and repaired. It wasn't on any register here. In the UK, that car could not be rebuilt. Some of the cars that are repairable write offs here in Oz get totally scrapped in the UK. Cat D write offs are paper exercises by insurance companies. They are lightly damaged cars. In this case, we are looking at a car that had about $10k worth of damage, because back when it had its small prang, it was worth about $15k! So you think a 3.2 which needed a wing and bonnet replacing is a real issue? You don't even need to get a Cat D write off inspected after repair, because if the repair is bad enough to warrant an inspection, it isn't allowed to be repaired. Any damage to suspension points, roof, A,B and C posts are instant Cat B (must be crushed).

People really don't understand Cat D's. My favorite was a friend who bought a Cat D car. It had been stolen when it was 3 week old and had been paid out in full. It was found being loaded onto a ship going to the UAE. It had not been driven, as proven by the mileage which was something really low (IIRC it was under 500 miles). The crew had stolen it using a lift truck made to look like a council parking enforcement vehicle. This car became a Cat D write off, because it had been paid out in full. My friend bought it and even got all the keys and the benefit of the warranty! But try as he might, he could not get it reclassified.He had bought it seriously cheap, so he wasn't concerned. It was more a case of trying to make some money by sorting out stupid bureaucracy. 

We do get the same stupidity here. Just ask Edgy (or don't unless you want to see a long rant....). But in the same way as we get cars that are lightly damaged being declared 'rebuildable write off" we also is cars that should never go back on the road being classified the same. It is one of many things that shocked me about the Oz system. It facilitates very dodgy practices. As Edgy says, the British system is far better and safer for the consumer.

There is so much i love about this country, but some of the regulations about car condition scares the hell out of me. NSW rego inspections? Total joke. RWC? Another joke. I am not saying a UK MOT is great either, but it makes our inspections look like full engineer reports. (rant over)

[Dreamr]

Sorry, while you are entitled to your view, it seems rather ill informed. The rules in the UK are far stricter than here in Oz which makes it safer to buy. I was close to buying a 911 over here about a month ago that I found had been rolled and repaired. It wasn't on any register here. In the UK, that car could not be rebuilt. Some of the cars that are repairable write offs here in Oz get totally scrapped in the UK. 

If the 911 you were going to buy wasn't insured or was insured but didn't get reported to them, it wouldn't be on any register as the register is only for cars that go through insurance companies .... maybe another flaw??

Also, there are no more repairable write offs allowed .... if going through insurance and they are written off, the VIN gets struck of any register and cannot be put back on the road ..... the parts can be sold separately though .....

[edgy]

Also, there are no more repairable write offs allowed .... if going through insurance and they are written off, the VIN gets struck of any register and cannot be put back on the road ..... the parts can be sold separately though .....

this is wrong, you can repair under limited circumstances, refer the RMS site. 

[Dreamr]

this is wrong, you can repair under limited circumstances, refer the RMS site. 

I was being quite general but you are correct ..... although the limited circumstances really don't leave much room for re-registering ....

I believe that for any car under 15 years old though it is a blanket rule ..... so in reality It does leave a small window for the aircooled to bypass the rule ..... 

[Zelrik911]

 I would be very cautious. Absolutely get your import Permission sorted first.

I know guys who bring in Citroen 2CVs ( its easy with them to fake their age, newish one become 'older'). The big headache (in Vic) with them is to get them past the "Approved Engineer" for pre Registration inspection; he is an older guy out of the Industry, not a dill and is usually across all the angles. If he loses his Certification he loses his easy retirement income. The people you deal with in the Fed & State government positions are nearly 100% girls now, so its about as easy to fool them as dealing with your wife.

Some people have bypassed this Engineering inspection by going straight onto a Classic permit (not actual roadgoing Registration); but this loophole seems to be closing up too.

Anyway if DOTAR or Customs seize your car, you will always get the opportunity to buy it back at the Auction.

 

 

[Plugger2]

I was being quite general but you are correct ..... although the limited circumstances really don't leave much room for re-registering ....

I believe that for any car under 15 years old though it is a blanket rule ..... so in reality It does leave a small window for the aircooled to bypass the rule ..... 

In Australia, there are two classes of write-off: The first is the so-called "statutory" write-off, and that is when a vehicle has structural damage deemed to make it unsafe to repair, or (a more recent change) has been flood affected. These cars can never be registered again in any state in Australia.

The second is a "repairable write-off", which means the insurance company has chosen to pay out the agreed or market value of the car to the policy holder, but there is no legal barrier to repairing and reregistering after an inspection. A typical repairable write-off is due to hail damage or similar. These cars go on WOVR as repairable write-offs, and once on the register, they can't be removed.

The main problem with a WOVR car is that even if you can verify the repairs have been done appropiately, the stigma never goes away, and a WOVR car can be very difficult to sell again -- there are many people who just won't consider a vehicle on the register. So even at a steep discount, you might have trouble finding a buyer when it comes time to sell. That's actually the main reason I'd never consider a WOVR vehicle at any price (and I suspect many others too) -- just too much hassle.

[Plugger2]

In the case of the car I am looking at, it will never appear on the WOVR. Now, I am not saying I wouldn't disclose its history, but I would be honest in saying the vehicle was not on the WOVR. 

So just out of interest, how would you answer the question "is the car a write-off"?

Would you answer "it's not on WOVR", or would you be up-front and disclose it's Cat D? Considering Cat D cars go for about a 25% discount on average in the UK according to the newspaper article I linked to earlier...

[michel]

So just out of interest, how would you answer the question "is the car a write-off"?

Would you answer "it's not on WOVR", or would you be up-front and disclose it's Cat D? Considering Cat D cars go for about a 25% discount on average in the UK according to the newspaper article I linked to earlier...

if memory serves I think @SimonN said he'd be up front about cond and repair. 

This would I suspect be the modus operandi of all here on the forum , yes?

Though I've never been asked before whether a car is on the register, though asked 'about accident history and repair. If any I would disclose.

I've never owned a car that has been a stat, repairable or, cat abcd and rather than ponder what State Fed Regs mean when kerbside out Lilydale way  I iike to concentrate on the detail, the car at hand and the seller, rather than chew my lip over how BIG government has classified it. 

Would i I buy a cat C D or rep write off here, sure. But would do do knowing I bought it well After all a Honda  Zot Is a Honda Zot 

I see amongst some of us the makings of our own little tea party 

now I'm more interested in what  frankenfurter plans have been brewing in Simons deviant mind and growing spread sheet ... 

 

 

 

[Plugger2]

if memory serves I think @SimonN said he'd be up front about cond and repair.

You can be up front about condition and repair, but that doesn't cover whether it's on a write-off register in the UK. He said he'd answer "no" if asked if it's on WOVR. My question was what he would answer to a slightly more general form of the question of whether it's a write-off...

Perhaps Simon might prefer to answer for himself?

As for the MO of people here on the forum, I expect it varies widely as in any cross-section of society.

[SimonN]

Plugger2

I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and take your attitude and potential slight in my character as simply being the problem of forums - that you can never really get the words right and because you are not face to face it is easy to mistake a genuine comment for an attack.

I state very clearly that I would not hide the history of the car. All I have ever said is that if asked if it was on the WOVR I could honestly answer no. But the issue is nothing to do with what I would say. Once I sold the car, the knowledge of the Cat D leaves my custody and who knows what the next owner would say, or not say. This is why I am having a fully open discussion about it and the morals involved.

In the end, I am siding with Michel's view about not getting caught up with the bureaucratic BS and just consider the car. You seem more interested in a piece of paper than the car, which is in itself interesting (no slight intended). So let me ask you a question. Forget the Cat D for one minute. What would you think of a 3.2 Carrera that 20 years ago had a front wing and bonnet replaced, but no other damage, all documented and declared? Then consider that the car has been subjected to a full body restoration and repaint recently by a leading specialist.

[Mike-S]

My Dad has the dubious 'honour' of owning an XJS that's been written off via the CatD route 3 times, twice in his ownership. He bought it at 3 years old already a CatD, from a small interior fire that melted part of the dash and wiring loom, wrecking the whole interior. Being fairly new the insurance co wrote it off as the interior alone brand new from Jag was a horrendous cost. An enterprising chap bought the car at auction, installed a new loom and interior from a heavily smashed XJS and hey presto, job done. Dad bought that car off him and 20 years later still has it. He himself has then twice hit the back of other cars, the bumper bar alone is over £1k which coupled with a bonnet has been enough to write it off. Each time he's taken a lower payment from his insurer and kept the car, last time he had the whole thing repainted so it looks good as new. It's just CatD x3. Is he worried? Not at all, he knows the car's history and is happy, much like @SimonN is here as he's done his due diligence into the car. 

Anyone searching the history of a UK car can get a HPi check which will tell you whether it's been written off / has finance owing etc, all you need is a VIN or registration. From memory it costs about £25. Yes there are many cars in the U.K. that don't appear on the register because they were damaged but only insured third party, so no claim could be made. These are the ones to be aware of, back in the day they were everywhere, from the cheapest of cars right up to the high end.

[poetry911]

I remember a flattened aussie delivered 930 turbo selling at Manheim, what was then Fowles, for 10k. It was flattened. It wasn't listed on the glorious "WOVR"..,

Guards red.., wondered where that ended up?

@Simon.., why bring it back to OZ? Keep it parked there and take a dream Europe driving trip anytime you want with the $80,000 minimum you saved on an equivalent Aussie one.

 

 

[SimonN]

I guess that the "bad" bits of a car's history all come down to the honesty and knowledge of the person selling it. With the car I nearly bought recently, it was an ex Targa car. which turned out to have been rolling down an embankment at speed. The car was totally rebuilt. I cannot say that the seller actually knew the full history of the car, but if it had not been for another forum member, I probably would not have found out so I would not have been able to tell the next owner when I sold it. The previous damage wasn't the reason why i didn't go ahead, but it does show how history can be "lost" with time.

[Plugger2]

Plugger2

I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and take your attitude and potential slight in my character as simply being the problem of forums - that you can never really get the words right and because you are not face to face it is easy to mistake a genuine comment for an attack.

There is no need to feel my question is an attack on your character. I have never bought a car yet where everything that was known about the car has been revealed to me -- there is always something I learn about a car after I've bought it, sometimes something big, sometimes not so big. That's just the nature of the game, and it's  very much a "caveat emptor" game. So if you chose not to be forthcoming about the Cat D status and left that particular piece of information up to the prospective buyer to discover, I wouldn't judge you for it one way or the other. If I was the buyer, I'd be annoyed at myself, not you. I was merely curious since your comment "If I was asked if it was on the WOVR, I could honestly say no" comment made me wonder where you'd draw the line at being forthcoming. I don't expect nor assume you or any other forum member is a plaster saint in this regard.

As for WOVR/Cat D merely being "a piece of paper" which can safely be ignored if one considers only the actual condition of the car, I have to disagree. Cat D has a material impact on the value, as does WOVR. Vehicles with such title defects are literally and figuratively "damaged goods". The newspaper article I linked to earlier claimed Cat D vehicles sell for an average 25% less in the UK than an equivalent car without the title defect -- that's real money, not some legal abstraction. I recall we had a similar disagreement when discussing whether a UK import should get the same money in the Aus market as an equivalent Oz-delivered vehicle all other things being equal, where I (and others) stated that the UK import status will always mean the resale value is materially affected, and that *has* to be considered when buying such a car.

At the end of the day, one of the (many) well-known reasons why buying an imported car from the UK (or elsewhere) is less desirable than buying an Oz-delivered vehicle is because the provenance/history of the vehicle is harder to determine, and this "write-off" register business really just adds to that list. If I bought a UK vehicle and discovered later it was Cat D (or even Cat C, which since UK registerable would also be eligible as a personal import) I'd be pretty unhappy. But that's all hypothetical, because as I stated above, this Cat D/Cat C business only reinforces my position I wouldn't be considering a UK import in any case. As I would not consider buying a WOVR vehicle. But good luck and good wishes on however you decide to proceed.