my 968 failed to proceed - starter motor

[jakroo]

It's been a few years since I've had a car that has failed to start....today while parked up having filled the fuel tank, it happened.  All dash lights lights on, open door beeping noise was going but turning the key further brought nothing but a single click.

At first I thought it might have been a sudden flat battery (only 2 months old) but a check (by a mechanic driving past who stopped to help out) showed 12.75v.  Attached a second battery via some leads and tried to start it up - same as before - all dash lights lights on, open door beeping noise was going but turning the key further brought nothing but a single click.  A few further tries and no start.  Odd as it hadn't exhibited any issues for the previous 2 months of ownership.

Another person who came in for fuel came over to look - he did his apprenticeship back in the late 90's on these cars and he diagnosed it as a dodgy starter.  He explained that a very small oil leak will drain in to this area and slowly but surely cause the starter to fail.  He looked down where the oil filler is as well as where the starter motor is and said that it was a little wet there (I'v not seen any oil on the engine floor though).  

I've had it towed home at what turns out to be $15 per km.

So, 2 questions:

Firstly, is this likely to be the issue? 

Secondly, if 'yes' to Q1, given where I live, should I try to remove the SM and clean it (a job where the car is parked on the dirt near the shed) for no reason if nothing else to see if I can de-oil/de-grease it and get to started to get it 70-100kms to a P mechanic) or should I simply stump up the extortion money for the towing and get it towed directly to the P mechanic?

Secondly, if 'no' to Q1, what could your arm chair diagnosis?

[Dreamr]

Sorry to hear this happened .... one of the joys of classic car ownership.

If it is the starter motor, I would remove it yourself and take it to an auto electrician or motor rewind shop and get it looked at.

It will save you a ton of money and if it is dodgy, you can just order a replacement and be on your way ....

[jakroo]

It's funny, how weird one feels when stuck at the bowser, blocking the thoroughfare and the other customers look across and see you looking flummoxed.  How embarrassment  

Is it easy to get to?? ie figure out how to get under the engine area (I presume a jack and either a sharp drop away in the ground level or some stands/ramps) and then use a couple of spanners to remove, or is it more like remove something approximating 30% of the engine bay while standing on your head?

Thanks Dreamr....you'll need to buy your own 'E' now, I can't afford to buy you one after the towing fee 

 

I should add, youtube does have a video showing a 944 which is a precursor to the 968 but I don't know if they are located in the same place and look/feel the same.....

[Dreamr]

I don' have first hand experience removing one of these, but there will only be 2 or 3 bolts holding it in .... the 924 and 944 have a "tray" underneath the car and once removed, I would imagine it would be a 10 minute job to get it out and maybe a bit of contortionism .... they are usually mounted at the bottom of the motor. I' sure someone with actual knowledge will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

[Scott930]

http://flussigmagazine.com/besitzerbericht/swapping-out-a-starter-on-a-968before-it-leaves-you-stranded

 

[jakroo]

thanks Scott930.  I have now read this a few times and it's starting to make sense. 

The only thing that makes me wonder about this is that it hasn't been part engaging, or making horrible sounds at all which is what typically occurs when the starter motor is on it's way out.  So I'm wondering if there is another electrical cause to it.

This was like I had left the lights on for a while and the battery was lowish - enough to charge to do some things including make the 'click' sound but not enough to actually to start the car.  We did try to start it in either neutral and park with the same result.

[Scott930]

thanks Scott930.  I have now read this a few times and it's starting to make sense. 

The only thing that makes me wonder about this is that it hasn't been part engaging, or making horrible sounds at all which is what typically occurs when the starter motor is on it's way out.  So I'm wondering if there is another electrical cause to it.

This was like I had left the lights on for a while and the battery was lowish - enough to charge to do some things including make the 'click' sound but not enough to actually to start the car.  We did try to start it in either neutral and park with the same result.

Could it be the starter solenoid rather than the starter motor?

 

[jakroo]

Could it be the starter solenoid rather than the starter motor?

 

yes, that's what I was thinking (while I was driving my ever reliable Evo to get some pizza for dinner cause I didn't get to go shopping for tonight's dinner) as well or perhaps there's a safety of ignition and transmission (mines an auto) but I would imagine if it was this scenario, then it wouldn't click but simply not do anything.

So, I'll proceed to work out how to get to the lower part of the engine - I can't roll it on to ramps and I don't have any stands....I have a few 300 x 300 x 300 chunks of hardwood  timber that will suffice if I can get it high enough to begin with.  Thanks Scott930

[TINGY]

"Failed to proceed", this is what a gentleman in Newcastle always says.

Not a hard job to get the starter out, 2 bolts from memory. Sounds like the hardest part for you will be getting the car high enough to get under it.

Just get it off and send it to an auto electrician they will fix it.

I have to work 4 days next week otherwise i would come down and help you, my hourly rate is fairly low

[jakroo]

.....I have to work 4 days next week otherwise i would come down and help you, my hourly rate is fairly low

Thanks for the offer Tingy, I knew you'd come through, and I'm sure that after you've driven the hundred or so kms of twisties down to my place, you'd need a refreshing mineral water before commencing the activity.  You could have collected Dreamr along the way.

And yes, you're right - getting it high enough is going to be hard.....I'm going to buy some jack stands tomorrow and that should make it a lot easier.

Thanks guys.....

[TINGY]

Thanks for the offer Tingy, I knew you'd come through, and I'm sure that after you've driven the hundred or so kms of twisties down to my place, you'd need a refreshing mineral water before commencing the activity.  You could have collected Dreamr along the way.

And yes, you're right - getting it high enough is going to be hard.....I'm going to buy some jack stands tomorrow and that should make it a lot easier.

Thanks guys.....

I was going to say if you are up my way i can lend you ramps or jack stands.

You need to read my post again, i said help not do.....

[LeeM]

 Give it a few taps with a hammer first if you can reach it

[jakroo]

I was going to say if you are up my way i can lend you ramps or jack stands.

You need to read my post again, i said help not do.....

What I could do is to start it up and then drive up to your joint, collect the stands and drive back home to use them to fix the starter motor.......

And re the 'help' not 'do' clarification, I understand that, that's why you'd need to collect Dreamr on the way!  and the payment was in mineral water and not some alcoholic beverage

 Give it a few taps with a hammer first if you can reach it

Yes, I'll do that as well LeeM...thanks.

[944s2cab]

Have you checked the battery earth grounding to chassis, also check the chassis to engine earth,

My 944 cab always had trouble starting, to such an extent that I would leave the engine running while filling up, numerous battery replacements, once i imported it here I found the cause to be a lead crimped/soldered connection under the carpet in the passengers footwell, once that was made better it 's been fine since

[jakroo]

Have you checked the battery earth grounding to chassis, also check the chassis to engine earth.....

if it had a dodgy earth,  would other electrical items like the radio,  sunroof etc work? Because they do.... 

Thanks for thinking about it

[944s2cab]

if it had a dodgy earth,  would other electrical items like the radio,  sunroof etc work? Because they do.... 

Thanks for thinking about it

Yes they will work, 

when you draw relativly low current through a resistive load (bad connection) the amount of voltage drop is pretty low, when you draw high current the volt drop increases

Ohms law

V=I*R, ( I =V/R, R=V/I )

if you had a 0.1 Ohm bad connection, and running stereo, lights etc at 10 Amps, the voltage drop will be I*R or 10*0.1= 1Volt drop

at 100A it would be V= I*R, 100*0.1 = 10Volt drop

Don't presume that the guy who diagnosed oil in the starter motor is definatly right, I fault diagnose electric forklifts for a job and I've been wrong many times before by presuming it was a previous common fault,

Remember the KISS principle, (Keep It Simple Stupid)

[jakroo]

Okay, that sounds reasonable.... I'll check those as well.

I guess most things eventually break but it seems odd to have failed without warning,  so something like a broken wire or broken connection that is either connected or not is a likely candidate.  Thanks. 

I expect  a jammed solenoid actuator (a new technical term for me)  would also qualify in such a binary manner so this is also a candidate.

[Dreamr]

 

I expect  a jammed solenoid actuator (a new technical term for me)  would also qualify in such a binary manner so this is also a candidate.

Well ..... look at you! Starting to use big words and terms that you only semi -understand ...

Our 968 baby is growing up ..... 

[jakroo]

It's important to know when to use such language,  polite company may not be impressed.

At least with 'solenoid actuator' it's pretty clear..... Thingamejig could be misinterpreted!

You're a funny bloke dreamr....thanks Dad

[9fan]

Sounds more like a elec issue more like security/immobilizer problem, probably best to get mobile electrician.

[LeeM]

 

I expect  a jammed solenoid actuator (a new technical term for me)  would also qualify in such a binary manner so this is also a candidate.

Bigger hammer ?

[944s2cab]

Whrere in Sydney are you jakroo?

 

[jakroo]

I'm north west Sydney.   Plenty of curves in my area, but a fair distance from most Sydney people on this forum.

Bigger hammer ?

May be a longer stick to transmit shock from hammer to starter....

[LeeM]

 May be a longer stick to transmit shock from hammer to starter....

Now ya thinking! ??

[TINGY]

Do all the obvious simple stuff first and if that ain't it call in the experts!