Lithium-Ion Batteries in older cars

[reggiegums]

Went away for 3 weeks and forgot to put the trickle charger on. Battery is now flat in my 993. Been charging for 2 days and still no luck.

Clicks but won't crank.

Has anyone fitted a lithium-ion battery in their air-cooled car?

Where can I get one? Any comments? Thoughts?

[Harvs11]

Many moons ago I fitted a dry cell battery in a Datto. Mounted forward of the front strut tower.  A minor crash pushed the solid lump of a battery into the tower resulting in fatal damage.  A standard lead acid battery would have crushed leaving a mess but fixable.  
Air-cooled 911’s have the battery in the front corner too.  Food for thought.  

[Merv]

There are also LI batteries with a built in jump start capacitor as a backup 

[cyberpunky]

They have to be carefully matched to alternator output but I'd worry about longevity Vs expense. On a race car sure it's a disposable but on a street car doesn't seem to be much upside while so expensive

[StevepGT3]

I put them into a couple of bikes,admittedly 5 or 6 years ago, had to have a special charger as well, it worked out pretty costly for what turned out to be only a couple of years of life.

[TINGY]

2 hours ago, StevepGT3 said:

, had to have a special charger as well, 

I thought this was the case also.

[Merv]

There are by now several generations of LI batteries.  Antigravity in the US has been leading some of the newer technology in 6 and 12V batteries for Porsches.  They claim (as do others) that the benefits of Lithium are:

1- Lithium does not self-discharge like Lead/Acid does. So if there is no big drains from your car when the car is sitting.  Lithium can sit about 8-12 months and not lose its energy.

2- Lithium can't leak... there are no acid or corrosive elements inside the battery, it is a dry-cell technology. Does not suffer from vibration.

3-Lithium is rated at OVER twice the Cycles of Lead/Acid... so over twice the lifespan and usually assume 8-10 years. This a labratory fact, not something we are saying. Lithium Cells are rated at roughly 2500 cycles, Lead is rated at 1000 Cycles.

4-Lithium is super lightweight.. not that this will matter alot in a 356 unless you want to race it, but the battery will weigh about 8 to 11 lbs when we finish.

5- Lithium has a high-pulse discharge.. better starting and a slightly higher voltage than lead.. but will charge fine off your charging system as a direct replacement for lead/acid.

6- We make our Lithium Batteries with a full Battery Management System inside the Battery. So it cannot over-discharge, over-charge, be short-circuited or damaged by accidentally leaving your lights on.

Disclaimers for some other batteries are described: 

1- To be clear.... there are different chemistries of Lithium-Ion. Lithium-Ion only is an umbrella term for a "rechargeable Lithium based battery". So there are several different Lithium-Ion chemistries in products you buy, We use Lithium-Iron Phosphate (Lifepo4). It is regarded as one of the safest Lithium Chemistries.. it is a very stable format and not prone to what is called Thermal Runaway which is an over-heating of the battery which results in a melt-down of the battery. Additionally it works at the same voltage range as Lead/Acid Batteries... it runs at a mildly higher voltage but this does not effect anything. On the other hand there is Lithium Polymer/Lithium Cobalt which is used in Hoover Boards, Phones and other applications. It is much more unstable and has a much higher energy density than our Lifepo-4. So it can hold more energy in a smaller format, but it is much more sensitive to charging, over-charging and over discharging making it much more likely to go into thermal runaway. So you have to understand there are different chemistries and hoover boards that were catching fire were NOT what we use in our products. Also those product were not regulated, or high quality.

2- The key to safety in a Lithium battery is using high quality Lithium Cells, and having a full Battery Management System inside the Battery itself. It's basically a Circuit Board inside the battery that controls many aspects of the battery. So its the built-in protection system for the battery. For example if you leave you lights on your car with a Lead/Acid Battery you battery will over-discharge... the longer it is over-discharge the more it is damaged and it won't last very long after a deep over-discharge. But our BMS on the battery WON"T allow the Lithium Battery to ever be over-discharged. It puts the battery to sleep right before it is fully discharged. This does two things.... 1) It protects the battery from being over-discharged and being damaged/ruined, and by having that protection it also makes it so you CANT damage the battery. So you won't accidentally damage your battery. Last if you take a Lithium battery into a deeply discharge level... then start the car and FAST charge it that can create a Thermal Runaway incident... but note... non of our batteries allow this, the Circuit board will cut off all energy to or from the battery if over-discharged.  

Another point with full BMS is that you can't over-charge the battery either because the Circuit Board will cut-off the high voltage. Also with our battery it has short-ciruit protection and alll the cells are balanced as you car charges the battery. So this makes for the longest life possible, but also prevents the battery from ever being allow to get to a point where it is outside a safe operating range. So it makes for an exceptionally safe battery.

3- Earlier versions of Lithium Batteries that were being made DID NOT have this BMS technology. And in fact we still make Racing Batteries that do not has a BMS.... and they are still some of our best sellers because they are exceptionally compact and high power, and will not have any issues when taken care of. And being blunt Thermal Runaway requires some severe actions to occur for the battery to melt. Its a rare instance even without a BMS. But for all our modern Batteries and all our street vehicle batteries we only use a full BMS.

4- We are not here to put out a product that would be remotely dangerous, our business depends on making products that are safe and functional and do what we say. You can go to Rennlist to check us out... I've been over there a long time and selling our 12v Batteries to the Rennlisters and there tons of commentary to look at. I personally own a 2016 GT3RS and would not have our batteries in my Car, let alone any of the other GT3RS and GT2RSs that we are in if I didn't have 100% confidence in the safety of the product. 

[StevepGT3]

14 hours ago, Merv said:

There are by now several generations of LI batteries.  Antigravity in the US has been leading some of the newer technology in 6 and 12V batteries for Porsches.  They claim (as do others) that the benefits of Lithium are:

1- Lithium does not self-discharge like Lead/Acid does. So if there is no big drains from your car when the car is sitting.  Lithium can sit about 8-12 months and not lose its energy.

2- Lithium can't leak... there are no acid or corrosive elements inside the battery, it is a dry-cell technology. Does not suffer from vibration.

3-Lithium is rated at OVER twice the Cycles of Lead/Acid... so over twice the lifespan and usually assume 8-10 years. This a labratory fact, not something we are saying. Lithium Cells are rated at roughly 2500 cycles, Lead is rated at 1000 Cycles.

4-Lithium is super lightweight.. not that this will matter alot in a 356 unless you want to race it, but the battery will weigh about 8 to 11 lbs when we finish.

5- Lithium has a high-pulse discharge.. better starting and a slightly higher voltage than lead.. but will charge fine off your charging system as a direct replacement for lead/acid.

6- We make our Lithium Batteries with a full Battery Management System inside the Battery. So it cannot over-discharge, over-charge, be short-circuited or damaged by accidentally leaving your lights on.

Disclaimers for some other batteries are described: 

1- To be clear.... there are different chemistries of Lithium-Ion. Lithium-Ion only is an umbrella term for a "rechargeable Lithium based battery". So there are several different Lithium-Ion chemistries in products you buy, We use Lithium-Iron Phosphate (Lifepo4). It is regarded as one of the safest Lithium Chemistries.. it is a very stable format and not prone to what is called Thermal Runaway which is an over-heating of the battery which results in a melt-down of the battery. Additionally it works at the same voltage range as Lead/Acid Batteries... it runs at a mildly higher voltage but this does not effect anything. On the other hand there is Lithium Polymer/Lithium Cobalt which is used in Hoover Boards, Phones and other applications. It is much more unstable and has a much higher energy density than our Lifepo-4. So it can hold more energy in a smaller format, but it is much more sensitive to charging, over-charging and over discharging making it much more likely to go into thermal runaway. So you have to understand there are different chemistries and hoover boards that were catching fire were NOT what we use in our products. Also those product were not regulated, or high quality.

2- The key to safety in a Lithium battery is using high quality Lithium Cells, and having a full Battery Management System inside the Battery itself. It's basically a Circuit Board inside the battery that controls many aspects of the battery. So its the built-in protection system for the battery. For example if you leave you lights on your car with a Lead/Acid Battery you battery will over-discharge... the longer it is over-discharge the more it is damaged and it won't last very long after a deep over-discharge. But our BMS on the battery WON"T allow the Lithium Battery to ever be over-discharged. It puts the battery to sleep right before it is fully discharged. This does two things.... 1) It protects the battery from being over-discharged and being damaged/ruined, and by having that protection it also makes it so you CANT damage the battery. So you won't accidentally damage your battery. Last if you take a Lithium battery into a deeply discharge level... then start the car and FAST charge it that can create a Thermal Runaway incident... but note... non of our batteries allow this, the Circuit board will cut off all energy to or from the battery if over-discharged.  

Another point with full BMS is that you can't over-charge the battery either because the Circuit Board will cut-off the high voltage. Also with our battery it has short-ciruit protection and alll the cells are balanced as you car charges the battery. So this makes for the longest life possible, but also prevents the battery from ever being allow to get to a point where it is outside a safe operating range. So it makes for an exceptionally safe battery.

3- Earlier versions of Lithium Batteries that were being made DID NOT have this BMS technology. And in fact we still make Racing Batteries that do not has a BMS.... and they are still some of our best sellers because they are exceptionally compact and high power, and will not have any issues when taken care of. And being blunt Thermal Runaway requires some severe actions to occur for the battery to melt. Its a rare instance even without a BMS. But for all our modern Batteries and all our street vehicle batteries we only use a full BMS.

4- We are not here to put out a product that would be remotely dangerous, our business depends on making products that are safe and functional and do what we say. You can go to Rennlist to check us out... I've been over there a long time and selling our 12v Batteries to the Rennlisters and there tons of commentary to look at. I personally own a 2016 GT3RS and would not have our batteries in my Car, let alone any of the other GT3RS and GT2RSs that we are in if I didn't have 100% confidence in the safety of the product. 

sounds good, 5 or 6 years in the tech world is a long time and it sounds like lots of improvements have been made since I stuck a toe in the water

[Teutonic]

I run the anti gravity in my car. Has been there for 3 or 4 years with no dramas. Has the emergency jumpstart function. Does work a treat. I have used a normal charger but the trick is to use low charge rate. They don’t like rapid charge rates. I have now grabbed a multi charger that is selectable to deal with all battery types and charge rates just to be safe. 
 

Other than chasing weight loss though, I am not sure there is a huge argument for them v say an optima red or yellow top.