future value

[Coastr]

Can you tell me....what is (I hear) it about 996 cars that is disliked by so many Porsche aficionados?

 

The radiators.

[tazzieman]

so, 993 for you?

For me?

I like to work on my cars. So , if I give that up it would have to be a 993 turbo vs Cayman R. Once I stop ploughing money into my offspring's education and the bucket list habit of overseas travel i.e. when I am a bit older. Or maybe not! A 911ST would be nice, to "take back to the factory" 

[Simonoz]

Stanley

It might be relatively straightforward.

The advice you've got so far is good.

The values of each reflect how they drive. A Carreras 2S, as lovely as it is to look at, is heavier, rides worse, and costs more than a standard Carrera. The wide body does it no favours other than in the looks department. Had one, never again. Apologies to those who love them but Porsches are not about looks, more about how they drive to me.

A 4S has the superior running gear of the turbo as mentioned earlier. It lacks the punch. A lot of punch. If that doesn't matter, at least it drives well and is built like a proverbial vault. That running gear is designed for much more power. I can't see how you could wear one out. Good long term buy, but not much less to buy than a turbo in similar condition because the running costs of the turbo are not for everyone.

The turbo. The pick of the bunch in every respect. Don't try one unless you really want to get serious about buying one. The power is addictive, but don't buy a car with too many stories as it will be painful to get right. Good buying still in the $100-$150k range I think. Demand means they haven't moved down much at all in the past ten years. Ditto the 4S at around $100k.

Hope this helps. Enjoy the driving. Good luck. Either will be a great buy.

Regards

Simon

[Stanley James]

Great summary Simon....really appreciate the advice.

What do you now have....??in the photo on your page?

[Stanley James]

PS, thanks to you all....what a great forum this (site) provides. Whilst I did have a 911E, then a 3 litre SC collected at the factory, it has been years between Porsches.....

Stanley

[Chris-p]

Mmmm, just stumbled across this thread. To enter the discussion or not... Well how could I not defend the 993 let alone the C2S after the disparaging remarks about them, being lucky enough to own one so I am wading into this conversation. The original comments about poorly maintained 993's honestly, never seen one. Every person I have come across lucky enough to own one of these awesome cars loves them and treats them with the respect they deserve. Theo's example of the car at Rennsport is a prime example. Mine isn't in the same category as that but equally as those that know me and have seen my car will attest to the level of love my car gets. Hence no dirt roads and no rain...

As far as C2S's being all looks and nothing else, well I do take umbrage at this comment as well. I have been lucky enough to drive some very rare Porsches, including the only Australian delivered 993 GT2 and 997 GT3RS and GT3RS4.0. All with considerably more horsepower than my humble 993 C2S. The interesting thing was how just how connected you feel to a car on the twisty bits. I have made some considerable changes to my car namely suspension and engine mounts which really brought my car to life. So much so that it was far more predictable and talkative than the GT2 on the same bit of road. Certainly the GT2 was quicker due to the huge difference in horsepower but at the same time I was surprised by just how well my car compared due to its handling.... Don't discount the C2S just as a pretty car and nice to look at. It's far more than that....

C

[Stanley James]

the car I see in your member profile.....looks lovely...but ??serious lowering and wheel changes from original?

Sorry responders, but not all 993s are as loved and clean as you seem to believe....just as with other classics which deserve TLC eg E Types

[Stanley James]

PS Chris 993, have you driven a 993 4S or Turbo?........I have not. I would be interested in your view on those models.

Thanks Stanley

[Simonoz]

Chris

No offence intended regarding the 2S. All 911's are good. With suspension mods the C2S starts to come right, but the big issue with mine was the wheel weight. Those look-a-like turbo wheels weigh a ton, and in my case with standard shocks, the car drove (compared to the others asked about) rather poorly. Having driven a modified one, theres no doubt that if you concentrate on the suspension and wheels you can end up with a very good handling car. I didn't bother with that as the red turbo popped up and saved me the trouble. Mind you the C2S still wont have the bigger brakes so I suppose you have to add that in to the equation if you're comparing apples.

A GT2 though is a different equation. Looking at the Nurburgring crash on the other forum reminded me of my lost 996 GT2. I'll rattle that one off another time maybe. A 993 GT2 is the only rare 993 I haven't managed to get into. My modified 993RS was fast enough for me, and having a twin turbo elastic band in one must be fun(!).

 

Stanley

I've got the red 993 turbo I just bought back for the second time, and a 1974 competition car, albeit licensed and driven on the road. I've also got a Rainsford Ford Perana long distance rally car, which in essence is a Ford Capri V8. Sister car to the London Sydney winner.

[Stanley James]

Simon

If the wheels and suspension on the C2S were the problem to you, how does the (standard) C4S address those issues? There seem to be no questions in the forum that the Turbo does...

[Simonoz]

Stanley

The C4S has the lighter hollow wheels of the turbo. They make a major difference to the feel of the car, more so if the shocks are standard.

The C2S wheels look the same but aren't hollow and weigh more. So, the running gear (brakes, suspension, wheels, 4wd system of the C4S and the Turbo are the same. They drive the same, except for the additional weight in the rear of the turbo, which you wont notice because of the additional power and the infinite joy it brings.

There is no doubt that you can tweak a C2S, a C4S and a Turbo using the same strategy. Bilsteins, engine mounts, lighter wheels, all wake up a 911. Some people dont seem to care about or notice the difference. Sounds like Chris does. Most serial offenders in the Porsche world have learnt to love the way a well setup 911 handles, which is not necessarily how a standard 911 handles.

Which perhaps brings us back to your original question about 996 versus 993. If you can find a good 993 of any description it will bring you great joy. In my case, and lots of others, the joy it brings exceeds that which a 996, 997, or even a 991 can provide. It isnt about speed, handling, intrinsic build quality or looks in isolation, but a happy conflux of them all in one car. Go googling and see how many people have flicked their newer turbos and gone back in time to a 993. I have. I'm no orphan. Thats why the things hold their value so well. When I bought my car back the other day, the dealer (who specialises in high end stock but not Porsche happily for me) could not believe the enquiries he received in one night. Six calls from all over Australia. I had to move fast and am happy I did.

It doesnt mean a 996 isnt a good car, of course it is. It just means demand exceeds supply for a good 993, and seemingly more so for a Turbo. Good luck with your decision. 

[Chris-p]

Good explanation Simon. Agree with everything you said.

No offense was taken just need to defend the character of the C2S given I am a minority of one on the forum, no one else was going to do it for me...

Cheers

Chris

[Stanley James]

Chris, if that is your C2S, .....looks beautiful.

Cannot thank you and Simon enough.

How much does the Bilstein, engine mount, etc change you mention benefit a C4S? I read that you feel same is not a need for a Turbo?

[Chris-p]

Thanks Stanley, much appreciated. I spend more time washing it and looking at it than driving it to be honest. I have had it 5 years next month and done 11,000km in that time. Including the 1000km drive back from Sydney when I bought it.

 

Shocks and engine mounts are only good for about 80,000km before they start to show signs of wear. So any 993 with normal Km's will need those changed at some point. The engine mounts in a C4S and Turbo are slightly different to those of the C2S and normal Carrera. The C4S and Turbo have rubber mount whereas the C2S has a hydraulic mount. They all wear over time so changing to an RS mount which is more solid rubber was the biggest improvement I made to the car. The turn is more crisp and you feel a connection to the car that the standard mounts dont give. With very little NVH change.

 

My shocks were due for replacement so rather than just put the standard shocks back on I wanted the adjust-ability that the bilsteins give in height and rebound just because I could,  not because I track the car. Its never been near a track.... Theo had just done the shocks on his car and was thrilled with the change so I went the same way. 

 

So if you are looking at either C4S or Turbo they are both truly awesome cars. I would love either....

 

Cheers

C 

[Simonoz]

Stanley

Chris is on the money. His advice is good. His car is very attractive. Mine was Ocean blue with a tan interior. It was a knockout to look at.

 

Regarding the mods you can sneak up on them if you buy a 993. In my case, when I had the red Turbo the first time around and it needed shocks (which seem to be done by 40,000kms on a Turbo ) I contacted Gert Carnewal, and on his recommendation, went for non-adjustable Bilstein's and used the standard springs. A decision I've never regretted, as it kept the ride quality with very good damper control. Gert's advice was based on the fact that I wouldn't be tracking the car consistently, and for road use the "standard" Bilsteins would be ideal. Mind you, it's still good on the track if needed.

 

Where we spent the time was on the alignment settings, which are critical. The really important setting is the rear toe-in. If it is set correctly the car will track very well under both acceleration and braking, if not it will wander as any toe out makes it unstable. In other words a bit of toe-in is important. Very few 911's are set up properly, and its worth doing this first up, and then seeing what you have. I've learnt to do this first up with any 911 I buy. You would be amazed to see just how far out some of them have been.

 

I have yet to change the engine mounts but will be doing what Chris has done when I do. RS mounts. I can leave that until an engine- out job is needed.

 

In the end, its all about the feeling a 911 can give, compared to any other "sports" car, for me. Anything that enhances that feeling is worth the effort, because when you get it right the most simple 911 becomes such a joy to drive. What a car they are, all of them!

[T-Man]

OK Stanley..........My C4 is a weekender only, but unlike my very good mate Chris993 I have done more kms in my first year than he has in five!!!!!

He has an exceptional car and all the mods that he has done have been thourogly thought out. 

 

As Simon said, Gert is an amazing source of advice and parts.Wheel alignment is critical in these babies and don't underestimate the importance.

Engine mounts are critical and one of the biggest single changes.About an hour of labour and they are done!

 

Now, advice for you, Simon and any other 993 manual owner.....................Look up FD Motorsports and buy one of their "Golden rods". Don't even think twice, just go and do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is the single BEST improvement to the 993 you will make.

[Stanley James]

Thanks all. I don't plan on track use, but take on board your advice. I gather that Gert is in Melbourne.....anyone in Sydney who is known to do the same?

[Stanley James]

What are Gert's contact details, please?

[T-Man]

Gert is in Belguim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.carnewal.com/

[Stanley James]

I was in Ghent and Brugge last year.....should have asked him....over the moule and frites....will look at FD Motorsports

thanks

[Simonoz]

Thanks for the tip Theo. I've had a look and can see the attraction. FD Motorsport have a nice site. Funny thing is, the shifter on my Turbo is one of the things I really like, so until it is worn out  I wont be changing it. 

[Chris-p]

Hi Simon, agree with everything Theo has said. He was very gracious in helping me fit the engine mounts and we probably spent more time talking than doing and it still took under an hour...

Sounds like Gert has quite a following amongst us on PFA. He was great to deal with for engine mounts and the bilsteins which I bought from him. Also Darin at FD Motorsport equally has a following amongst us with at least half a dozen regular PFA 'rs that have delt with him for mufflers or other parts.....

Do those engine mounts it will amaze you the difference it makes....

C

[Simonoz]

I will Chris.

I've got a little list of improvements/service items going, and now that I've done 700kms I'm starting to get a feel for what's needed. Happily not too much. Better headlights rank high on the list, as do the engine mounts. A new screen, and floor mats. New boost hoses and a service kit. Maybe some of those FD mufflers and 200 cell cats. All preferential items as the car is in great shape. I am loving it.

I've got a race meeting this weekend with the Perana so that will distract me from matters Porsche for a while.

[Harold996tt]

Chris no disrespect to the 993 c2s as its a gorgeous looking car, but I don't think it should be mentioned in the same line as a 997 GT3RS from a handling perspective. I have owned a 993c2 before and owned and extensively tracked a 997gt3rs. Handling on the RS was other worldly whilst the power was on par to a standard 993tt on the long straights.

As to the original poster, the 993c4s I have is a soggy sponge to drive at the best of times compared to the 996tt or even worse compared to the 997 GT3RS I had but I will never sell it, whilst the 996tt was sold after just one year, and the RS was sold after only 3 years of ownership.

The reason is as all others have said above... The 993 is the last of the true 911s.

I had a 996tt before. Never raised my emotions no matter how fast it was (had it running 700bhp).

The 993 is a car you will own in 20 years and still respect as it is old school and a work of art from another time of porsche history. The 996 was to me...the first of the modern mass manufactured cars.

Not to take anything away from the 996, but to me it was the least pretty and least thought through iteration of the 911 from a design and looks perspective. The 997 moved back towards some of what made the 911 and in particular the 993 aesthetic wise a beautiful machine, and the nod to how timeless the 993 was reappeared in the flared arches of the 997, the head light design and the interior dash (dash in fact predating the 993 all the way back to the first 901.

Believe me, you will always want a 993 after you have bought a 996. But you will never want a 996 after you have bought a 993. I have owned a few 911s during my years, from a 1984 3.2, 1990 964 c4, 1994 993 c2, 1996 993 c4s, 2003 996tt, 2008 997 gt3rs. And the only 911 I still have is a 993. Mind you I am looking now for a 89 speedster and a 94 3.6 turbo to add to the 993, but I will never go with a water cooled 911 again.... But then that's why I'm on the air cooled forum...

If you want a car that transcends the banality of practicality and will be something you will be proud to hand your kids in the future, there is no contest between the 993 and the 996. The 993 will win hands down every time.

[Simonoz]

Harold

I am absolutely with you on this. I hope Stanley has the chance to find a good 993 and enjoys it for what it is. The King of 911's (Adrian Streather's words not mine). Ask any Porsche mechanic, they will agree. Look at Porsches own collection, they always trot out the red 993 Turbo at their demonstration days as one of their "standout" cars. Ask the "serial offenders" in the Porsche world, guys who keep buying 911's. They always come back to a 993 in the end.

I've enjoyed my watercooled 911's very much, but they do not stack up against a 993 as cars of intrinsic value. Wish they did, but they dont. Its not Porsches fault, as economics, regulation, and safety concerns make them build very, very clever cars. I just cant balance the cost/value equation in my mind, an issue Ive never had with any air/oil cooled 911. 

Go for it Stanley, keep the 996 as a driver, and buy a 993....................!