Oil Unification List Thread

[cyberpunky]

OK normally when this subject comes up it ends in a 10 page thread with links to every discussion in the history of motoring about oil.

 

What I would like to know is what brands have the required ZDDP levels for our older cars and create a list.

 

Note this is for all older Porsche's that require Zinc and is not model specific although your welcome to add what model you think it is great for

 

So if we could add brand/type that ppl know for sure have the required ZDDP content, I'll add them to this list, as quick resource. If you are out and about and your regular brand isn't available you can look this thread up on your smartphone in the store and buy a suitable alternative.

 

If you could post it by

1: brand

2: variant

3: weight

4: ZDDP level if known

5: Suitable for specific models(if known)

6. Synthetic or Dinosaur

Then I list them all in this post

cheers

 

 

Did a little investigationing at my local Autobarn and walked out with below. The owner tried to help but couldn't impart any useful info

 

1. Pentrite

2. 10 Tenths Racing 15

3. 15W-50(note it says *maybe used where 15W-40 is recommended)

4. 2200+

5. ??? am hoping it is good for 944 turbos

6. Fully Sic-thetic

 

(Stardust)

1. Mobil 1

2.

3. 15W-50

4.

5. '88 3.2

6. Fully Sic-thetic

 

(J.J)

1. Brad Penn

2. *the green Oil*

3. 20W-50

4. Required level of ZDDP

5. 85 3.2

6. 

 

(Flatout)

1: brand: Royal Purple

2: variant: HPS

3: weight: 10W-40

4: ZDDP level if known: Enough

5: Suitable for specific models(if known): Used in '84 3.2

6. Synthetic or Dinosaur: Full Synth

 

(NJphoto)

1: brand: Penrite
2: variant: HPR 30
3: weight: 20W-60
4: ZDDP level if known: 1600+ ppm
5: Suitable for specific models(if known): Used in 91 964 Turbo (same as 930 motor) and Tassie's numerous models.
6. Synthetic or Dinosaur: Full T-Rex

[Pauly]

penrite 20 w50. I use to use semi synthetic but they've changed it to fully synthetic with added ZDDP. 

difference is i have a rebuild engine. You shouldn't use fully synthetic, you'll risk oil leaks.

 

Chris white posted something do with this on rennlist. but i cannot remember who started the read. 

[cyberpunky]

Cheers Pauly. I have made some changes to how I'd like information laid out, to hopefully make the information a bit easy to navigate

Now c'mon all you all oil experts, start sharing already

[cyberpunky]

wow an oil thread that no one is contributing too lol that has to be a first

[Stardust]

Mobil1 5W-50 in an 88 3.2 motor. It doesn't leak.

 

Oops. After reading Peter M's excellent spreadsheet in the other thread, I re-checked my oil. It's actually Mobil1 15W50 - and it still doesn't leak.

[cyberpunky]

Bought some Pentrite 10 Tenths Racing 15 

15W-50. See first post for specs

[J.J.]

i run Brad Penn 20w-50 (the green oil) has the required ZDDP level 85 3.2

[cyberpunky]

Thanks Josh/Stardust

[Flatout]

1: brand: Royal Purple

2: variant: HPS

3: weight: 10W-40

4: ZDDP level if known: Enough

5: Suitable for specific models(if known): Used in '84 3.2

6. Synthetic or Dinosaur: Full Synth

[Pauly]

Note:

 

You shouldn't change to synthetic oils if your engine has ran mineral oils for a bit of it's life. The synthetic oil breaks down the dried up deposits around the seals and gunk in the engine. That stuff will now float around in the sump which isn't great. 

If you had a slight oil leak, moving to synthetic will make it worse!

[cyberpunky]

Mine was running on Synth when I got it so am hoping no adverse effects using it now. It leaks a little, burns off a little, so I just top it off every cpl of weeks. 

[tazzieman]

I sleep well at night with Penrite HPR-30 in all my classics  Life's too short to worry about these things too deeply.

[FlatSix]

As Tassie said, I use Penrite HPR 30 too. Here are the details...

1: brand: Penrite

2: variant: HPR 30

3: weight: 20W-60

4: ZDDP level if known: 1600+ ppm

5: Suitable for specific models(if known): Used in 91 964 Turbo (same as 930 motor) and Tassie's numerous models.

6. Synthetic or Dinosaur: Full T-Rex

[Tit]

I've got a few bottles of that penrite to go in soon. Though I wonder if the high cold viscosity will be a problem in the Canberra winter. What's the consensus on risk to the engine during start up? I notice the European cars are more after a cold viscosity of ten...

[tazzieman]

I've got a few bottles of that penrite to go in soon. Though I wonder if the high cold viscosity will be a problem in the Canberra winter. What's the consensus on risk to the engine during start up? I notice the European cars are more after a cold viscosity of ten...

I recall 20W-50 is good for down to minus 10. Just drive gently the first few km is how I roll in winter.

[FlatSix]

I've got a few bottles of that penrite to go in soon. Though I wonder if the high cold viscosity will be a problem in the Canberra winter. What's the consensus on risk to the engine during start up? I notice the European cars are more after a cold viscosity of ten...

I can't comment as cold is not too much of an issue up here

[Russ]

I've got a few bottles of that penrite to go in soon. Though I wonder if the high cold viscosity will be a problem in the Canberra winter. What's the consensus on risk to the engine during start up? I notice the European cars are more after a cold viscosity of ten...

Does your car live outside or in a garage overnight?

 

If it's in a garage I don't think you'll have a problem

[Tit]

Garage. But it leaks air like a seive.

Drove the car today. Couldn't get the temp gauge into the 'operating temp' in half an hour of driving.

Does your car live outside or in a garage overnight?

If it's in a garage I don't think you'll have a problem

[Pauly]

Guys i don't think we need to worry as much as winter and summer oils as we don't nearly get weather like they do in the states or Europe to worry about thinner oil for winter.

[911oclock]

Guys i don't think we need to worry as much as winter and summer oils as we don't nearly get weather like they do in the states or Europe to worry about thinner oil for winter.

I dunno, the honey in my jar doesn't want to come out as easy during winter and I'm not even talking sub zero temps yet!

[911oclock]

If you've got five minutes this is worth a read. Although not directly related to our flat engines the oil characteristics will be the same.

(Not my work)

Effect of Lubricant Properties and Lubricant Degradation on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in a Spark-Ignition Engine, Schneider et al:

Let me begin by saying that every person interested in motor oil should go to SAE.org and purchase this article. (The paper was very detailed and I have tried to simplify the results. Also, I will need to report the results in several different postings so hang on please.) This research is made more relevant by actually using V-6 engines for wear testing - 1999 GM 3.4-L 60 degree block. And the radiotracer method of wear detection has been shown to be very accurate. They go on to say that cylinder wear and ring wear are perhaps the best areas to test oil and wear for engine longevity, particularly the rings.

Loads and RPMs varied during tests and for most tests the coolant and oils were artificially kept in the normal operating range for the engine. The coolant was not allowed to rise over 203 F and the oil was kept below 248 F. The basic test oil was a fully formulated 5W-30 quality oil. Comparisons were made between SJ GF-2 and SL GF-3 oils, both mineral based and synthetic oils were tested. Mineral based SJ oils were tested with varying quantities of ZDDP. Fully identical mineral based oil additive packaged SJ oils of different viscosities were compared. Wear rates were also tested compared to oil temperature.

Wear rates were determined by measuring the radioisotopes in the oil. It was noted that the accumulation in the oil filter was minimal. This shows that metals in the oil are a good way to measure wear. (Note that with cavitation wear the metal particles would be large and caught in the filter as would the larger dirt particles.)

Results of comparing GF-2 to GF-3 lubricants:

In general, wear rates were high during the start up period (20 minutes) as previously noted (1). Then a steady state of less wear was reached at 2,000 RPM and low load. There was a big increase in wear rate when the load was at wide open throttle, WOT, at 2,000 RPM. A modest increase was noted if you kept the load at WOT and increased the RPM to 4,000.

Actual numbers:

Average wear (ug/h) for 650 RPM, low load = 50, for 2,000 RPM, low load = 79.

For 2,000 RPM at WOT = 516, for 4,000 RPM at WOT = 758.

They state that wear is independent of RPM but there is a high correlation between wear and engine load. (This seems odd at first. You double the RPM but the wear does not double as long as the load is the same. The wear rate per revolution actually decreases with RPM. The overall wear may increase but it is less per revolution.)

They state that there is little concern for ring wear under typical light load conditions. (Typical city and steady state U.S. highway conditions.) They conclude that there were no differences between the SJ GF-2 and SL GF-3 mineral based oils in wear rates. This is the null hypothesis as the major difference between these oils is the newer lower volatility and increased oxidative stabililty between these oil classes.

Part 2:

Continuing with SJ GF-2 and SL GF-3 differences they show that there is no significant differences between the oils for the initial break-in wear of top compression rings. They state that bore wear differes from ring wear in that most wear occurs during initial break-in and with start up periods. Steady state wear is very low except when changing to high load conditions. But even here bore wear is less than ring wear rates. They reiterated that start up wear was most significant but there were no differences between the oil classes.

They compared the mineral based SJ oils for wear rates by varying the ZDDP levels. There were no differences between phosphorous levels of 0.10 and 0.05. The only other level tested was zero ZDDP where wear rates doubled. Another SAE paper showed no difference in wear as long as the level was greater than 0.03 (2). They further show that there is in fact minimal bore wear differences when no ZDDP is present. (Note that doubling the wear rate is still not too bad as the rate of wear was still relatively low.) They conclude that the newer GF-4 oils will have no negative impact on ring and bore wear rates even with the reduced ZDDP levels.

(I heard information that the ZDDP levels will be 0.05 in the GF-5 Oils.)

Oil age effects were tested by measuring wear after the oil was subjected to 16,000 miles of city driving. Although the oils thickened some, TAN increased and TBN decreased, there were no differences in wear rates from fresh oil. The test oils were mineral based SJ GF-2.

Part 3:

Fully formulated Synthetic SJ 0W-30, 5W-30 and SL 0W-30 oils were compared to SJ and SL 5W-30 mineral based oils for wear. There were no differences. (This is worth repeating - there were no differences in wear rates between mineral and synthetic based oils.)

Next are the effects of viscosity and oil temperature. Only ring wear was tested as they state it was most sensitive. They compared basic SJ GF-3 mineral oils. The additive packages were the same. The only difference was the viscosity of the base oils. The following grades resulted: 0W-10, 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-40. The HTHS for these oils were 2.17, 2.83, 3.09 and 3.76.

There was no difference in wear rates. The oils were tested at all RPMs and Loads, no difference between oil grades were noted. All the oils had increasing wear rates as the load increased but all increased at the same rate across the board.

Most interesting to me was the way they tested wear at lower, start up, oil temperatures. In a previous study (1) they start with room temperature engines and oil showing the trend of decreasing wear as the engine heated up. In the current study they actually took a hot engine and chilled the coolant and oil from that of the normal operating temperature to a coolant temperature of around 80 F and oil temperature to 70 F. As the temperatures fell the wear increased. It reached the same rate of wear as the 4,000 RPM full load WOT. This was with the load at the minimum level. The fluids were then allowed to heat back up to normal operating temperatures and the wear rates normalized (decreased).

Wear at room temperature oil was 20 times higher than wear at normal operating temperatures. This finding is what closed the article. They stated that this will be the next focus of their upcoming research.

aehaas

(1) Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in SI (Spark-Ignition) Engines, Schneider et al:

The rate of wear is much higher within 15-20 minutes of start-up than after reaching normal operating temperature. There was a lot of data but I conclude that the initial start-up time period (first 20 minutes) result is 100 nanometers of wear whereas the steady state wear rate was only 4 nanometers per hour thereafter. (Hence we should be concerned about start-up oil thickness more than running thickness. This justifies the statement that 95 percent of engine wear occurs just after start-up.)

(2) Development of the Sequence III G Engine Oil Certification Test, Clark et al:

Engine tests were made more severe again. (Over the years the oil ratings have improved but this has always been despite the increase in testing severity. It was III ...D, E, F, and is now III G). The oil inlet temperature was decreased from 155 to 150 C. The test was 80 and is now 100 hours. There were 8 oil level adjustments allowed now there are 5. The inlet engine air temperature was raised from 27 to 35 C. The engine load was increased 25 percent.

Despite all this the current 0W-20 oils were still GF-4 compliant and showed minimal valve train wear characteristics as long as ZDP levels were higher than 0.03 percent. (The SM rated oils I have seen so far have levels of 0.08.)

[tazzieman]

I dunno, the honey in my jar doesn't want to come out as easy during winter and I'm not even talking sub zero temps yet!

Start your microwave engine and it will heat up pretty smartly!

The user manual states which honey , and today's honey tastes even better 

[Tit]

It will start dipping below zero this week in Canberra. Its normal to leave to meet tk111, panzer, michael and the crew before seven am on a weekend when its low single digits.

I guess what I'm getting at is that an engine usually has poor lubrication at start-up and having a very thick and slow-to-warm-up oil only exacerbates that...

[Pauly]

Can someone sum that up for me in 10 words or less? the *winner will win a life time achievement award blah blah blah. 

 

*probably wont receive anything.

 

I'll give it a read after work  

 

well SAE 20 w50 is good for -10 deg C° 

[Harvs11]

Can someone sum that up for me in 10 words or less? the *winner will win a life time achievement award blah blah blah.

*probably wont receive anything.

I'll give it a read after work

well SAE 20 w50 is good for -10 deg C°

1. More 2. Than 3. You 4. Ever 5. Wanted 6. To 7. Know 8. About 9. Motor 10. Oil

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