356B Info Required

[35SIXXX]

G'Day Guys,

I've been offered a 356B Coupe project car and thought I'd better do some research before I jump in. 

I was hoping to get some guidance with regard to pricing, potential pitfalls, what to look for etc etc. 

Let me apologise in advance as I really have no knowledge on these cars and will probably ask too many questions. Although I've always considered them to be one of the most beautiful cars made, I've always thought they were too far out of reach to actually research them with the view of buying. 

Anyway, the car in question is in pieces and is said to be complete, although I doubt it very much. Project cars generally aren't. 

The motor is not original either so I hope a slight outlaw, or at least not necessarily concourse restoration would be acceptable. 

The body has been blasted and the rust has been removed. There's plenty of work to be done to get the body back together, but I don't think there's anything that can't be seen as it stands. 

If I go ahead, I'd be looking at making it appear original from the outside other than it being lowered, and perhaps bumper less.... Maybe. Plus I'd likely have standard Steel wheels with no caps for a slightly racy look. 

So, what I was hoping to find out is:

What is a project in this state worth?

What is the potential for such a car, in either concourse, slight outlaw and "thrown back together for a daily driver" type restoration?

How difficult are parts going to be to find? I understand most parts are available these days?

Is there anything in particular that would make you steer clear of such a car?

It has a sunroof which I believe ads value, but I'd imagine could also add headaches?

Absolutely any info, guidance, advise would be greatly appreciated as the only info I can find on pricing is generally relating to earlier Pre A & A cars, and although they are clearly more desirable models, I have no idea just how much more valuable they are. 

Thanks in advance guys. 

OH, and I hear the 356 Register is a good source of info, but I tried to sign up there last week and haven't been contacted yet. Is anyone on here a moderator, or know people on there?

Cheers. 

[LeeM]

 I hate to say this mate, but how long is a piece of string? That the kind of answer you'll get.

 If its affordable to you, just buy it and work the rest out later, as theyre always going up in value, matching numbers or not. Though that does have an effect to the Porsche purist

 Do your homework with suppliers and specialist builders to get quotes for work to be done, yet there are a few 356 owners here who can steer you in the right direction better than I can. Have a budget in mind,  then add a bit, as there are always hidden costs.

Cheers

 

[Airhead]

The Register is a little slow to react sometimes. Be patient. They will respond.

Price varies greatly on these, even project cars. Is it a reasonable ask or silly money? Why has the current owner not proceeded past blasting stage? You Does anyone else know about it being available? Price goes up. Does more that one person want it? Price goes up. Sunroof car. Price goes up.

Lots of pitfalls with these cars but nothing that can't be done or hasn't been done before. Plenty of parts available but there are parts and there are parts. You get what you pay for. Get the engine No. and check that it is the right type to suit the car.

What ever price you pay for it add 70-80 grand minimum to bring the car up to a good quality standard. Stock cars are always worth more than a hotrod so be careful what you modify.

Good idea to drive/ride in one first. You may hate it.

Oh. And how ever long you think it will take to get it on the road, double it and add a year. But jump in.The journey will be worth it.

[ByronBayChris]

You mean something like this ?

[35SIXXX]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. 

Fitstly, I'm not sure if what he's asking is reasonable or silly money. What is considered reasonable and silly?

This guy wants 40k for it.

The rust has been cut out and there's new panels for everything that's been cut out including new frame work for the sunroof, floor pans and other standard rust spots. 

My panel guy said he'd sort the body for under 30k, allowing 15 each for panel and paint. So with 30k invested into the body plus the original 40, I'm at 70 without mechanicals and interior, and hoping that could be sorted for under 30.

With that said, I believe I should be able to get the car for less than 40 (maybe closer to 30).

Likewise with the body, I should be able to get that sorted for 20-25ish (my panel guy is a good friend).

So I'd really hope to shave the build cost to 80k max.

So to be more specific, I guess I need to know:

Could the car really be worth 40k as is?

Is 30 more realistic? Even less?

What are the cheapest restored B cars worth?

What are the most expensive? If not matching numbers and beautifully preserved originals?

Am I dreaming?

And Chris, what's the story behind that black car? It looks stunning, and not that far from what I have in mind for my project? Could you put a price on it for me? 

Thanks again guys!

 

[ByronBayChris]

The black one is my new one. Just getting it through rego at the moment. I will happily share all when it's done.  But it is similar to your plan (except lhd import) and would cost you more than your estimate. 

You're hoping for an 80k build on top of the 35 buy....so you're at 115k.  That sounds reasonable if you intend to keep the car and don't want to flip it. Hotrods are harder to sell as people want matching numbers.

 

Stay tuned for a full thread on mine.

[symsy]

I have been looking around and havent found a shell in months … I feel it will be a bigger investment but it sounds good money at the price you say..

Push harder on your panel guy and get a discount and save your money that way ..shells are more scarce than panel guys if your on a tight budget

I have eyballed Chris's car , its a complete package and would take some work to get a rusty shell to those levesl , so there is always the time factor 

[ByronBayChris]

There are two very rusty ones in the states on ebay and bat. Both for 10k. Both very rusty.

[Airhead]

35SIXX  Is this an RHD Aussie delivered car? Can seller prove it? Then finished value will be higher than import. Lower buy in always better if you can work it.

A good restored RHD Aussie B is probably north of K130 now. Lhd import less so. But they ain't getting any cheaper.

You numbers sound ok if a little conservative. 30K for the body is 250hrs @$120/hr. Can he realistically do the whole job in 6+ weeks? You get what you pay for and short cuts will come back to bite you later on. Do it once and do it right.

[Merv]

Airhead is right on this one.  It is in bits - so preservation is unfortunately out of the question and a restoration is the order of the day.  If it is Australian delivered (?) and is therefore an unconverted RHD and is a  T 5(?) or T 6 there are not that many in that delivered here (latter) category on the history file I have been given. Matching engine/chassis numbers seems less of an issue among the 356 guys (I maybe wrong), certainly different from the early 911 folk.  If it has a sun-roof that is also less usual.  Would seem a shame to hot rod it in many ways.  A later 70s 911 with an even later motor might be a better option there.  On the 356 be sure the rust has been removed fully and areas are not primered over filler.

Do drive a couple of 356's (B) to be sure that is what you want.  They are just so different from the early 911's with the latter being manic, excitable, close-ratio geared, well braked, precise handling and (IMHO) somewhat less comfortable and characterful.  The 356 has charm and comfort and does everything well but the 64-65 911 must have seemed a foreign beast to the 356 guys back in the day.  Both are brilliant but different.

 

For detailed info and sound advice join the US-based 356 registry.  Best $$ you can spend.

 

[35SIXXX]

Thanks again folks.

The car is an import, but is RHD. Where it came from, I'm not sure yet. It's also a T6 I believe.

The plan would be to keep it standard..ish, with only minor mods, all of which could be reversed later if need be. I'd love it to have a vintage race car feel so no hubcaps and possibly no bumpers.

As for pricing, it was actually 80k in total I was aiming for. I know this will be tough, but I think possible. My panel guy will definitely be about as well priced as any, and I know he'll do a great job. Plus, I intend on doing a lot of the mechanical work and interior myself. The idea would be to get the car into the panel shop to have the body / panels finished and the car painted in primer. I'd then store the car for 12-24 months while I collect parts and restore what I can. With the view of then final prep of the body, painting it and then final assembly. over another year or so.

With regard to the parts, I'd try to use genuine Porsche for anything seen, or important like brakes etc, and reproduction where I feel the need for genuine is not so great. Hoses, heater controls, wiring harness etc etc. I'm completely fine with after market headlight buckets etc, so long as the glass and chrome work is original for example.

I hope that plan doesn't offend too much, but due to the car's current state, it's never going to be concourse with non matching numbers and being an import etc. I just want a really neat and reliable car that looks cool.

So from your feedback so far, I've concluded that:

The 40k buy price is not unreasonable, but on the higher side. And there's been very little to compare it to recently.

A 30k buy price would be a great start.

Once built, I'm guessing it could be worth 120k ish, if i don't make a mess of it.

My budget for the build is too low, but I'm still confident that I can get it done. It just means there will be no NOS original Nardi steering wheel for example, but perhaps a restored one... maybe. I can live with that level of build.

Sound reasonable?

 

[Merv]

Could be.  If it was me, I would be after the Chassis number on the VIN plate and then checking that out as to where the car was sold originally and in what specification (we all have our sources on this info).  I would also be checking for the last 3 digits of that chassis number on the hood, LHS door frame, trunk lid and so on to make sure this was a whole original car.  There is also a VIN/Engine and Trans number database on 356.org that can tell you a good deal.

The eventual value of these cars is very much around these kinds of things, and originality in fittings, colours and so on

356's don't seem to have the same values as early 911's but they are stable and slow movers from what I can see.   The 356 Registry.org  has a free magazine which shows current sales and values.

[81SC]

The February edition of Excellence magazine has 1952-1965 356 values in the market update section.

[rafikdous]

T6s are much more complicated to convert due to the shape of the tank so it would be worth paying extra attention to whether the conversation was done properly or a hack job. Migh be worth getting someone who's familiar with those cars to check it out for you. 

I restored 4 of those cars before. The least I ever paid for a panel shop was $18k and the most was $34k. Apart from rust replacement, there is the work involved in getting the panel alignment and gaps right which has to be done properly. Honestly if gaps are crap and alignment is out and you are trying to sell the car later, ppl will just walk away. Rust is relatively easy to replace. Every panel is available as repro and anyone with good welding skills would do it. Gaps and alignment are a different story

interior will cost you $6k or $7k to purchase and $5k to fit

you are up to $5k in rubbers, badges, etc

brakes overhaul is $2k

gearbox overhaul is $2k or $3k

engine overhaul anywhere between $4k and $10k

suspension $2k

then allow $3k or $4k for other bits and pieces

if the car is in pieces and you haven't pulled one apart yourself before then you won't know what's missing. Get someone who did this before to check it out for you

if it was an original rhd non rusty car then yes it's rare. But converted lhd that has lots of panels replaced are not really considered rare so don't rush in putting a deposit on it. Take your time and consider the total cost and the amount of money you will spend, time and frustration during Resto. You might well find it easier to get a running 356 already and enjoy driving it now not wait 3 years

[Merv]

Interesting it is a concerted LHD?  That does impact value as well.

[35SIXXX]

Sooooo, I finally viewed this car and I'm afraid the condition of it was no where near as good as I hoped. 

The body was a mess. It does come with almost every replacement panel from Stoddards, but the RHD conversion looked to be a pretty average attempt and there was a lot of integral parts of the shell that looked to be in very bad shape. 

Mill try to upload some images to help explain. 

The interior was there but in very bad condition. Bad enough that I would start fresh and there were plenty of parts missing including front suspension, front hubs / drums and al wheels were gone. 

Due to the condition of what I could see, I wouldn't have much hope for instruments or any other parts being too good either. 

I must say, I'm not quite ready to walk away, but I'm pretty close. 

[Merv]

There is ann original RHD 356A car in South Africa that is for sale by an elderly owner.  Send me a PM and I will send the details.