Forged piston experience for 3.6 rebuild

[TAV]

Hi everyone

So I've got myself a 1990 3.6 engine that will be getting a rebuild in the new year. 

Im just collecting parts for it at the moment. My plan is to get it to 300+ hp

aim is to ligten up all rotating/moving items. 

So, getting some ppm rods, but have had some difficulty with choosing pistons.

i'm deciding between CP (2618 material) pistons and wossner (4032 material) pistons. The car will be pretty much daily driven. 

Anyone have experience or comments about these piston brands? I've heard nothing but good things about CP, but 2618 material may not be ideal for my use. Wossner uses the better matched (from my research) material for my purposes, but mixed reviews.

 

thanks in advance 

[SimonN]

I won't comment on particular pistons, but instead will comment in general on your rebuild. You really need to be more precise in what your target is and what you really want to do. You can get 300bhp from a standard engine without too much trouble by converting to hotfilm and a good custom chip (one step beyond Steve Wong standard).  The standard engine is more than strong enough to handle that. In fact, I know people who have run 325-330 bhp with standard internals. To decide what you need to do inside the engine, you have to decide what you are going to do outside and in particular on the inlet and exhaust side. If you are sticking with existing ecu and fuel system and standard exhaust, I would be not be paying for exotic pistons because you cannot extract the benefit of those exotic parts. If you are going to upgrade to a more sophisticated ecu (motec or similar) and you are aiming at, say, 340bhp which can be achieved by reliably and still be OK for  road car, then you need to put a lot more into choosing components above and beyond standard. It all depends your target and depth of pocket.

[Philbee]

Hi Simon, could u spell out for us uninitiated what "convert to hotfilm" means pls? 

[SimonN]

Hi Simon, could u spell out for us uninitiated what "convert to hotfilm" means pls? 

You change the air flow meter which on the 964's is the old flap style for the 993 one which is basically a wire mass air flow (MAF) meter. It is more accurate and allows for better air flow. With a decat and cup pipe. In the UK, this really was the "gold standard" in relatively cheap tuning. Hot film and live remap used to cost about GBP1500. 

[Okrasa Kid]

Hi Simon

Another uninitiated question - Which chip is one step beyond a Steve Wong standard for a 993 or 964? The guy seems to have the market pretty well sewn up!

Cheers in advance

[SimonN]

Hi Simon

Another uninitiated question - Which chip is one step beyond a Steve Wong standard for a 993 or 964? The guy seems to have the market pretty well sewn up!

Cheers in advance

I consider most of what Steve Wong does to be an off the shelf chip, not custom. Custom is where it is mapped to your car. I know he does this, and offers what I would call a semi-custom chip if you send him some rolling road data. However, the only way to get a top grade custom chip is to map the car on a rolling road or it can be done on the road if you are prepared to risk your licence! You need an laptop, eprom emulator and the correct cable, plus a little bit (lot) of knowledge.

Steve Wong has to leave some of what is possible on the table because each car is slightly different, differences in fuel quality and other such things. If you custom map to the car, there is more to be had. If you guarantee me you will only ever use top grade 98 ron fuel (no back street independent ), you can go further than you would with a more generic chip. A few people here in Oz can do this (PR Tec for instance) but it costs more than buying a Steve Wong off the shelf chip (I don't have a price, but I seem to remember it's about $1500). The more cars somebody does, the less it costs because they usually develop a range of base maps and then simply adjust one to the particular car. The closer the base map can be to the final map, the  less mapping you need to do and the less rolling road time is needed = less cost.

Before Steve Wong and others) came along, this type of mapping was developed mainly in the UK (IIRC, by an Aussie!). In addition, I don't believe that SW offers a chip for a hot film conversion.

[TAV]

Thanks Simon

The upgrade of the internal parts is for a planned future change in ECU - was thinking motec with 9m package. The direction of the build has changed slightly again now and I'll probably stick to mahle factory P&C's, but from a 993. This will be a little lighter (pistons) and yet still have the longevity that I'm after. I know I'll have to change the rods to suit the 964 crank with 993 pistons. I'm thinking the target is a reliable engine that can approach 340hp when all said and done. 

I've got some old GHL headers. Will do some more research on a muffler. 

After the engine is rebuilt, I'll see if I can get some sort of re-tune to the DME before going the next step with the Motec

Thanks for your input Simon

 

 

[SimonN]

TAV

I can highly recommend the 9m package. Back in the day, I used to know Colin Belton (9m) and while he never worked on my car (my car was on his rollers a few times for comparison), I know a fair number he did work on and have driven a number of cars in different states of tune from Colin. His Motec set up is neat and well thought out. I will be inquiring if he does the same for a 3.2C because if he does, it's a "no brainer" for me. There is one danger with dealing with Colin - he has too many nice engine bits and you will end up spending more than you intend. There is at least one highly respected Oz specialist/engine builder that gets parts from him and I suspect there are more.

[Okrasa Kid]

I consider most of what Steve Wong does to be an off the shelf chip, not custom. Custom is where it is mapped to your car. I know he does this, and offers what I would call a semi-custom chip if you send him some rolling road data. However, the only way to get a top grade custom chip is to map the car on a rolling road or it can be done on the road if you are prepared to risk your licence! You need an laptop, eprom emulator and the correct cable, plus a little bit (lot) of knowledge.

Steve Wong has to leave some of what is possible on the table because each car is slightly different, differences in fuel quality and other such things. If you custom map to the car, there is more to be had. If you guarantee me you will only ever use top grade 98 ron fuel (no back street independent ), you can go further than you would with a more generic chip. A few people here in Oz can do this (PR Tec for instance) but it costs more than buying a Steve Wong off the shelf chip (I don't have a price, but I seem to remember it's about $1500). The more cars somebody does, the less it costs because they usually develop a range of base maps and then simply adjust one to the particular car. The closer the base map can be to the final map, the  less mapping you need to do and the less rolling road time is needed = less cost.

Before Steve Wong and others) came along, this type of mapping was developed mainly in the UK (IIRC, by an Aussie!). In addition, I don't believe that SW offers a chip for a hot film conversion.

Cheers Simon

That was very informative as I'm an analog re carby guy.

I was looking into these ex Lotus guys in the UK but at present they don't do the 993 only 964.

www.specialist-components.co.uk

1.  

 

 

 

 

 

[SimonN]

I don't know if it is appropriate to continue what is basically a thread hijack, but to discuss the SC gear needs a bit of a discussion about the different inputs that can be used for the same thing - AFM vs MAF vs MAP. Remapping and mappable ECU's keep coming up, and this is an area I am really into, so give me 24 hours (it could be far sooner if i have time) and I will start a technical thread, transfer this stuff over and start posting some info so that questions can be asked.

[MFX]

I don't know if it is appropriate to continue what is basically a thread hijack, but to discuss the SC gear needs a bit of a discussion about the different inputs that can be used for the same thing - AFM vs MAF vs MAP. Remapping and mappable ECU's keep coming up, and this is an area I am really into, so give me 24 hours (it could be far sooner if i have time) and I will start a technical thread, transfer this stuff over and start posting some info so that questions can be asked.

I will be watching with interest. I am in the process of planning a reasonably special engine build (for the long block at least) and I am still working on what I am doing for engine management.

[TAV]

Yes, Colins Motec package looks good. And looks like he's done a fair few of them. 

My 2 issues are

1) finding a capable tuner 

2) the fact that it has no knock sensors 

ps a technical thread would be fantastic, Simon. 

[Mike D'Silva]

Tav, is this still happening?

Mike

[TAV]

Mike, it's still happening :-), but at a slow steady pace...

just got these back last week...

Tim 

 

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[Mike D'Silva]

hmm... what am I looking at ? Looks like a special coating?

 

 

[Peter M]

. There is one danger with dealing with Colin - he has too many nice engine bits and you will end up spending more than you intend.

I see what you mean: https://9mshop.co.uk/epages/5c9a3e21-bdf7-419e-91e7-2c6a3305eb45.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=Categories

 

[Zelrik911]

"Steve Wong has to leave some of what is possible on the table because each car is slightly different, differences in fuel quality and other such things. If you custom map to the car, there is more to be had. If you guarantee me you will only ever use top grade 98 ron fuel (no back street independent ), you can go further than you would with a more generic chip"

What is the difference between Australian fuel standards & the US rating?

Reading through these posts - it seems our petrol is rated different to USA. Are we the same as UK &/or EU or different again?

The 911Chip (SWong) site has different choices for differing fuel rating, so what number 993 ECU are you using for your motor?

Good luck TAV on your rebuild.

 

[MFX]

"Steve Wong has to leave some of what is possible on the table because each car is slightly different, differences in fuel quality and other such things. If you custom map to the car, there is more to be had. If you guarantee me you will only ever use top grade 98 ron fuel (no back street independent ), you can go further than you would with a more generic chip"

What is the difference between Australian fuel standards & the US rating?

Reading through these posts - it seems our petrol is rated different to USA. Are we the same as UK &/or EU or different again?

The 911Chip (SWong) site has different choices for differing fuel rating, so what number 993 ECU are you using for your motor?

Good luck TAV on your rebuild.

 

I know that in the US there Premium fuel is only 91 octane compared to our 98. At least in California, they get different (lower grade) fuel in winter than they do in Summer. 

[clutch-monkey]

I know that in the US there Premium fuel is only 91 octane compared to our 98. At least in California, they get different (lower grade) fuel in winter than they do in Summer. 

91 MON, same as our 98 RON. octane is the same.

[Pork Chops]

Thanks Simon

The upgrade of the internal parts is for a planned future change in ECU - was thinking motec with 9m package. The direction of the build has changed slightly again now and I'll probably stick to mahle factory P&C's, but from a 993. This will be a little lighter (pistons) and yet still have the longevity that I'm after. I know I'll have to change the rods to suit the 964 crank with 993 pistons. I'm thinking the target is a reliable engine that can approach 340hp when all said and done. 

I've got some old GHL headers. Will do some more research on a muffler. 

After the engine is rebuilt, I'll see if I can get some sort of re-tune to the DME before going the next step with the Motec

Thanks for your input Simon

 

 

If you go Motec, I've got the 9m induction / intake part on a 1990 3.6 which I'll not be using myself so PM me if you're interested in taking it off my hands.  My engine will be at the workshop early next week so I'll have a better idea of exactly what's on it and I can get access to take photos.  Cheers.

[MFX]

91 MON, same as our 98 RON. octane is the same.

I never heard of that, so I did a bit more research. Research Octane Number (RON) and the Motor Octane Number (MON) are different measures. This average number is sometimes referred to as the Anti Knock Index ("AKI"). It seems that the US actually use RON+MON/2 to get their octane ratings, and their 93 AKI is the equivalent of our 98 RON.

[clutch-monkey]

I never heard of that, so I did a bit more research. Research Octane Number (RON) and the Motor Octane Number (MON) are different measures. This average number is sometimes referred to as the Anti Knock Index ("AKI"). It seems that the US actually use RON+MON/2 to get their octane ratings, and their 93 AKI is the equivalent of our 98 RON.

ah yep, there you go.
as usual, america has to use a different system to the rest of the known world..

[Zelrik911]

I never heard of that, so I did a bit more research. Research Octane Number (RON) and the Motor Octane Number (MON) are different measures. This average number is sometimes referred to as the Anti Knock Index ("AKI"). It seems that the US actually use RON+MON/2 to get their octane ratings, and their 93 AKI is the equivalent of our 98 RON.

 

Did you notice whether our RON rating here in Australia is the same as the Rest Of the World? (hopefully we are NOT like the US on this!)

It would be a bummer for TAV to buy a Steve Wong chip for the 3.6 & find its didnt fully suit our petrol.

[Pork Chops]

SW chips work fine here. Had 1 for 2 years in my 993 no issues. Use 98 RON fuel. Pick up the phone to Steve if you're not sure.

[MFX]

 

Did you notice whether our RON rating here in Australia is the same as the Rest Of the World? (hopefully we are NOT like the US on this!)

It would be a bummer for TAV to buy a Steve Wong chip for the 3.6 & find its didnt fully suit our petrol.

I only skimmed a few articles, but I gather that RON and MON measure different things, and petrol varies in what it contains quite a bit, but I would assume (and that is not a great place to start) that a RON measurement should be the same where ever. It is only because the US use AKI not RON, that the numbers differ.