Tesla 3

[clutch-monkey]

i'd drive one to work, no problem.

really no reason to waste my petrol powered cars on the daily commute.

that being said, driving the rx7 home in the wet at 8pm was fun.. but i could do that a few times a week even if i had an electric car.

[tazzieman]

But wait...there's more.

Volvo weighing in with their plan.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/volvo-cars-joins-electric-race-with-plan-for-five-battery-models-20170705-gx5dyt.html

And my favourite part of that "Article" is " its first electric vehicle will be a Chinese-made compact car that starts deliveries in 2019"

<sarcasm> Can't wait</sarcasm>

I keep strong & fit , for when the time comes...

[tazzieman]

Volvo weighing in with their plan.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/volvo-cars-joins-electric-race-with-plan-for-five-battery-models-20170705-gx5dyt.html

 

http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/driverless-cars-have-kangaroo-issue-says-uk-mp/news-story/e71e59c1037b38175a3ad8d7c14f0568

DRIVERLESS cars have a problem detecting and avoiding bouncing kangaroos, a British MP says.

Conservative MP James Cartlidge said on Tuesday that the marsupials’ bouncing had thrown off Volvo’s large animal detection systems, as he called on car manufacturers to consider all road users when designing the devices.

During a Westminster Hall debate on the safety of riders and horses on rural roads, Mr Cartlidge said driverless cars would bring their own issues. “I don’t know if people are aware of Volvo — they have an issue with kangaroos.”

He said Volvo recently reported their driverless cars had initially been tested to detect and avoid moose in Sweden but had struggled with kangaroos.

“I think it’s because they bounce, rather than approach steadily — I don’t know, I’m not an expert.”

Aside from parliamentarians raising concerns over Volvo’s driverless car sensor technology being bamboozled by kangaroos, the automaker has also made headlines this week by announcing it will only build electric and hybrid vehicles starting in 2019, making it the first major automaker to abandon cars and SUVs powered solely by the internal combustion engine.

[Redracn]

^^ I hope Volvo know you hit Kangaroos as they are small enougth unlike a Moose which in some cases is probably safer to avoid. 

As far as the con job that is Electric OR Hybrid how much Hybrid does it have to have? Does alternator regenerative braking count? Or does the car have to be able to travel a few km without the engine. What will be the number of electric cars produced as I can only assume that if it was a reasonable number they would mention it and not lump it with hybrids of unknow capabilities/level.

 

[Zelrik911]

As far as the con job that is Electric OR Hybrid how much Hybrid does it have to have? Does alternator regenerative braking count? Or does the car have to be able to travel a few km without the engine. .

Tesla drivers in US have a special fear - its called Range Anxiety  - will it get me to my destination, where can I recharge?

I reckon if a very weak tiny engine hybrid could give you an extra 250k range, well that extra K could be enough for people to  move across. I reckon I would seriously consider it - sort of best of both worlds.

[Redracn]

I assume your range reference is to plug in hybrids which essentially have two fuel tanks that need to be filled. So for AU it is powered by petrol or coal and relies on the versatility of petrol to be acceptable. So without adequate infrastructure to fill them with coal and the government taxing all transport fuel in the future I expect the uptake to be slow and limited.  

 For the classic hybrid ALL power comes from the IC engine with any effeciency gain due to energy recovered by braking being greater than losses in storing the energy in a battery so only effective in stop start city traffic. I expect the classic hybrid will be of little to no benefit when the IC engines efficient operating range is improved dramatically by the introduction of fully electric valve control. 

[tazzieman]

Watch the soap opera!

http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/manufacturing/is-tesla-taking-too-many-risks-before-launching-the-model-3/news-story/1dbf8a66ab51bb88b365ef0718105e75

 

[Coastr]

i hope you're all enjoying the quality QLD coal you southerners are consuming by the megatons at the moment.  Qld generators have been backstopping energy for the eastern seaboard for the past couple of weeks.  I reckon closing a few more power stations in the southern states is a bonza idea - get on it,and then starting buying up 'leccy cars by the boatload!   Let the cash flow North!  Maybe I'll go long mining housing in the Burdekin and discarded quality automobiles from down south.

[tazzieman]

Don't be frackin' silly!

[Redracn]

EV are great for mining companies especially the ones involved in batteries. Any consumption is pretty much good for miners even the windmills and solar panels especially given their short life and the unnecessary desire by many to install lots and continually replace them. Renewables is a silly term. 

[LeeM]

Gotta hand it to Musk. He has some large cojones to take such risks. 

I still can't see them being that profitable unless the cars are cheap

[tazzieman]

Gotta hand it to Musk. He has some large cojones to take such risks. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAgZlwSGYE8

 

[Redracn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAgZlwSGYE8

 

I seems he might be getting into the battery business just in case.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/07/08/electric-car-maker-tesla-share-price-plunges/

 

[tazzieman]

I seems he might be getting into the battery business just in case.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/07/08/electric-car-maker-tesla-share-price-plunges/

Yes Volvo seems to be flavour of the month , like Pepsi cf poor beleagured ol' Coca Cola 

[tazzieman]

Our new MB SUV arrives in 3 weeks. Perhaps this will be the last new combustion engined car we will ever buy?

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2017/0520/876698-petrol-and-diesel-engines-have-a-lifespan-of-only-8-years/

He also predicts that there will be a "mass-stranding of existing vehicles", that the value of second-hand cars will plummet, that people will have to pay to get rid of their cars and that by 2024 there won't be any car dealers in business anymore.

I guess that will be true , to an extent. 

So that's why our next car will be a quality one. 

[Coastr]

 

"What the cost curve says is that by 2025 all new vehicles will be electric, all new buses, all new cars, all new tractors, all new vans, anything that moves on wheels will be electric, globally". 

 

cough...bullshit...cough.  Why anyone pays attention to these attention seeking nitwits is beyond me.

If more people start using electric the price of electricity goes up (or shortages occur aka blackouts) and the price of liquid fuels comes down as we enter a fuel glut.  Thus making conventionally fuelled cars more economical.  Subsidies and rebates would be replaced with road-use taxes further levelling the field.  Remember we in Australia are at something like 0.01% electric vehicle usage and we already are at a razors edge of electricity generation for commercial/domestic use - new power stations (real ones, not publicity generating fake ones) take more than 10 years to commission and build - it could be faster but you'd have to clear-cut a forest of regulations to make it happen.

Additionally- no electric battery system exists or has been conceived which could replace commercial vehicles.  The economics of freight are weight / distance / cost.   While you could make a truck with a massive battery and massive motors, all you could carry would be a pallet of tissues before the weight limits are reached.  Passenger vehicles are possible because they carry up to about 400 kg of flesh and maybe a 100 kg of luggage.  There is no electric vehicle available with a rated towing capacity.

You cannot beat the laws of physics and energy density of liquid diesel is 13,300 watt hours per kg.   The best lithium ion batteries are 243 watt hours per kg.

Now I'm no betting man but making up a 500x difference in energy density in 7 years is (ahem) unlikely.   Or even in 70 years.  Because the closer you get to an equivalent in energy density, the more it is going to look like a liquid fuel.  So yes, you could synthetically create a diesel equivalent but your energy returned on energy invested is seriously negative.  Better to just get it from the ground unless you want to be a very poor society which spends half its resources getting energy just like a set of medieval peasant farmers.

Unless we seriously decide to use plutonium batteries instead.  Plutonium has an energy density of 621 million watt hours per kg.   Which is why a 20,000 ton nuclear submarine gets 1.5 million kilometres and 30 years between refuelling, and takes a suitcase worth of fuel.  Imagine powering your electric porsche with a matchbox sized contianer of plutonium that lasts the life of the car.  Now that is innovation.

 

[Redracn]

 

cough...bullshit...cough.  Why anyone pays attention to these attention seeking nitwits is beyond me.

If more people start using electric the price of electricity goes up (or shortages occur aka blackouts) and the price of liquid fuels comes down as we enter a fuel glut.  Thus making conventionally fuelled cars more economical.  Subsidies and rebates would be replaced with road-use taxes further levelling the field.  Remember we in Australia are at something like 0.01% electric vehicle usage and we already are at a razors edge of electricity generation for commercial/domestic use - new power stations (real ones, not publicity generating fake ones) take more than 10 years to commission and build - it could be faster but you'd have to clear-cut a forest of regulations to make it happen.

Additionally- no electric battery system exists or has been conceived which could replace commercial vehicles.  The economics of freight are weight / distance / cost.   While you could make a truck with a massive battery and massive motors, all you could carry would be a pallet of tissues before the weight limits are reached.  Passenger vehicles are possible because they carry up to about 400 kg of flesh and maybe a 100 kg of luggage.  There is no electric vehicle available with a rated towing capacity.

You cannot beat the laws of physics and energy density of liquid diesel is 13,300 watt hours per kg.   The best lithium ion batteries are 243 watt hours per kg.

Now I'm no betting man but making up a 500x difference in energy density in 7 years is (ahem) unlikely.   Or even in 70 years.  Because the closer you get to an equivalent in energy density, the more it is going to look like a liquid fuel.  So yes, you could synthetically create a diesel equivalent but your energy returned on energy invested is seriously negative.  Better to just get it from the ground unless you want to be a very poor society which spends half its resources getting energy just like a set of medieval peasant farmers.

Unless we seriously decide to use plutonium batteries instead.  Plutonium has an energy density of 621 million watt hours per kg.   Which is why a 20,000 ton nuclear submarine gets 1.5 million kilometres and 30 years between refuelling, and takes a suitcase worth of fuel.  Imagine powering your electric porsche with a matchbox sized contianer of plutonium that lasts the life of the car.  Now that is innovation.

 

Well said. As you say the chances of a battery (being an energy storage device and not an energy source)  reaching the energy density of a chemical reaction where for each gram of petrol 14.7 grams of oxygen is taken from the air and does not need to be carried is at this point a fantasy. The brilliance of liquid fuels is that the major component (oxygen) is readily available as it is everywhere.

The next big scare/scam when the C02 one has run its course could be oxygen depletion then what would we breath.

[KGB]

Shit air.  Like now.

The next big scare/scam when the C02 one has run its course could be oxygen depletion then what would we breath.

 

Imagine powering your electric porsche with a matchbox sized contianer of plutonium that lasts the life of the car.  Now that is innovation.

911PuRe with a pair of glow in the dark bonnet stripes with a half life of 25,000 years! (sorry)

[Coastr]

Ha well I won't nuke-nerd out on you but let's just say 50 years of nuclearphobia has cost us dearly in terms of progress.  The future is nuclear, it was always so.  A bunch of smelly hippies spouting packs of lies derailed it for a bit but Luddites never win anything but tactical victories.  You can't beat energy density and eroei in the long run.

Maybe never for sports cars but first it will be cargo ships, then it will be trains, then it will be trucks and buses.  No refuelling, no emissions, poweplants sealed for life and safely reprocessed at end of life.  Most likely it will be space exploration and lunar/mars settlement that will drive the technology and overcome the general publics irrational fear.

fun fact: MRI tech is nuclear magnetic resonance. They just leave out the nuclear bit or the years of hippie propaganda stops people from getting on the table, even though x-rays are far more hazardous.

[LeeM]

  Imagine powering your electric porsche with a matchbox sized contianer of plutonium that lasts the life of the car.  Now that is innovation.

 

It worked for Doc Brown in the Delorean! 

 Playing into these asshat futurists hands is what the gubberment want you to do. First they said 'BUY DIESEL, IT'S GOOD FOR YOU AND THE ENVIRONMENT!' Well that worked well didn't it? Same thing is happening with them sprouting electric cars and renewable energy is the way to go, and people are jumping on the bandwagon. Believe it or not, that's up to you to decide, I'd rather just wave my finger at the wowzers as I hook 2nd gear getting sideways with a load of noise in a 911, and the smell of Penrite mineral oil and tyre smoke! 

[Coastr]

Ha yeah well see how much plutonium the doc used ... but he did need 1.21 GW after all!  The latest Westinghouse ap1000 design only ekes out 1.17 GW.  And it's a tad larger than a delorean rear engine compartment :P

[tazzieman]

I'm not too fussed. What bothers me is the type of Porsches they are making now. I drove a demo 718 today and , nah , doesn't do it for me. The engine note is very try hard, like a synthesizer compared to a real piano. But hey , this sort of thing is going to be all the rage so people can fiddle with devices whilst "driving". So many devices , so many buttons and levers. I'd rather be a Luddite than a Technerd.

[Redracn]

Looks like EV's are a steel from the poor to pay the rich scheme. For me the question is when will Joe Average cotton on to this scam and be motivated to do something about it.

the richest 20% of Americans received 90% of hundreds of millions in taxpayer EV subsidies.

 

[tazzieman]

 For me the question is when will Joe Average cotton on to this scam and be motivated to do something about it.

This sort of thing doesn't happen in Western democracies though

[tazzieman]

In news today http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/wall-street-journal/elon-musks-tesla-is-too-big-to-fail-for-california/news-story/551035092d3534a98c299e36d27424d5