Senna v Prost v Schumacher

[LeeM]

No wucka's

Having raced clubmans with some success at club level a few years ago (inbetween racing bikes), I have huge respect for MS getting back to his roots and giving back to the sport that started his carreer

I was weighing up buying the 912 or a Rotax to start Kart racing again. Glad I chose the 912, BUT, I reckon a kart is on the agenda in the next couple of years before I turn 50. 

Bit of a mid lifey happening 

I still have the mental age of 12 though

[mockney999]

Just have to add into the thread that no-one has mentioned one of my all time favourite drivers Nigel Mansell, They named him 'the lion' at Ferrari and he pretty much raced wheel to wheel with some of the other greats highlighted on this thread so he deserves his place amongst the F1 hall of famers.

And.....he managed to make wearing a Mo look cool.

Plus was the only driver (I think) to win F1 and then Indy Car titles back to back.

[Russ]

didn't Mario Andretti and someone else I can't remember win Indy as well as F1?

[mockney999]

 

didn't Mario Andretti and someone else I can't remember win Indy as well as F1?

Hi Russ,

Yes, good call on Andretti, he did win both Indy and F1 world titles but not back to back. I think that deserves extra kudos to win the title in your rookie season :-). 

[Coastr]

didn't Mario Andretti and someone else I can't remember win Indy as well as F1?

Nigel Mansell, I'm pretty sure.

 

EDIT: d'oh, I just read further up the thread.

[Carrera28]

Ayrton Senna is number one in the modern era in my opinion.  The race which shows is sublime skills is the wet race at Donnington in 1993 when the McLaren Ford was not the class car of the field.  Just watch the first lap and you will see why he is held in such high regard.  But for Imola in 1994 he would potentially have won the championship in 1994 and given the dominance of the Williams car at least one of the championships in 1995, 1996 or 1997.  On that basis he would have won at least five championships and could potentially have won 7 or 8 championships.

 

Comparing drivers from a different era is difficult as different eras have different things which created competitive advantage.  I prefer to judge drivers against only the drivers of their own eras.  With this mind I have considered the standings across the decades and this is how I tend to rank drivers:

 

1970's

1) Lauda

2) Jackie Stewart

3) Mario Andretti

 

Both Lauda and Andretti's reputations speak for themselves, however Jackie Stewart often gets forgotten in considerations of the 1970's however he won two championships and was a driver who straddled the end of the classic era in the 1960's and the beginning of the modern era of the 1970's.  The cars were very different and the fact that he was a master of both is a credit to his capabilities, he also was a major driver of improvements in safety and was one of the first modern professional drivers.  

 

 

1980's

1) Senna

2) Prost

3) Piquet

 

Senna and Prost speak for themselves.  You could argue that Lauda was the third best driver as his come back performance was brilliant and he managed to beat both Prost and Piquet who were at the peak of their driving abilities through race craft and cunning.  However given he was only active for half of the decade I think Piquet as triple World Champion gets the guernsey.  Mansell misses out on my top 3 because both Prost and Piquet were able to mess with his head outside of the car and this affected his ability in the car.  

 

The two big what if's of the 1980's are what if Stefan Bellof and Gilles Villeneuve had not died would they be top 3 drivers?  Bellof in particular was held in very high regard and he could potentially have gotten the McLaren drive in 1987 ahead of Stefan Johansson and Senna may have ended up at Ferrari rather than McLaren and then who knows?

 

1990's

1) Schumacher

2) Ayrton Senna (controversial but for Imola he would probably be no 1 in 1990's as well)

3) Mika Hakkinnen

 

Schumacher's results speak for themselves, in weaker cars he still managed to win races and his debut in F1 was an amazing performance.  However even in this period there was a stench around the Benetton in terms of illegal traction control and Adelaide in 1994 was controversial to say the least.  Hakkinnen's judgement to accept a test drive with McLaren rather than a race drive with Lotus showed good judgement and his performances when given a race drive were strong.  You could mount an argument for Damon Hill since he was competitive against Schumacher and he managed to galvanise the Williams team behind him after Senna's death and but for Schaumcher's questionable tactics in Adelaide he would have been a double world champion.  For me he misses out on the top three because he faded away after the 1997 season and 1998 and 1999 seasons mean he misses out on my top three.  I think Damon's abilities at the time were judged harshly and he was a very good driver, but not quite an all time great.

 

2000's

1) Schumacher

2) Alonso 

3) Lewis Hamilton/Kimi Raikkonen

 

1) and 2) are not controversial third caused me a lot of thought, the Ferrari dominance was such that other drivers looked poor for the first half of the decade.  In my view Hakkinnen in this period had lost a tenth or two and his consistency wasn't what it was.  However there is potential that this was a reflection of the McLaren he had at his disposal and I may have been unnecessarily hard on him. 

 

2010's

1) Alonso

2) Vettel

3) Lewis Hamilton

 

Noting this decade is not even half completed this listing could change.  The Alonso and Vettel ranking is a hard one and I still think Alonso has the edge in race craft and car setup, however his qualifying performances this year were poor and if he doesn't pick that up particularity with Kimi as his team mate then ultimately Vettel may end up no 1.

 

Kimi doesn't make my top three because he doesn't always fight as hard to turn a 4th into a 3rd as Alonso and championships are won on your ability to score points when you are not necessarily in the hunt for a win.  This is one of Alonso's strengths in that he fights hard and generally manages to get his car into points scoring positions.  Hamilton is fast and whilst sometimes he made mistakes and off track his judgement has been questionable, he has improved consistently and in 2012 and 2013 his error rate was greatly reduced and given a competitive car his speed makes him hard to beat.

 

My judgement has ignored sportsmanship, fair play or off track behaviour.  Unfortunately in F1 nice guys finish last and sportsmanship is not rewarded with results.  If I was to rank drivers on their sportsmanship and fair play, none of the drivers above would make the rankings.  My rankings based on sportsmanship are the following:

 

1) Gerhard Berger

2) Jenson Button

3) Damon Hill

[Niko]

Nicely done....you got me from the first sentence.   Well written, great read and very interesting contribution.

[mockney999]

Nice post Carrera, its hard to pick any faults in your logic and reasoning, you must be a serious F1 fan.

I would be interested on your views regarding the proposed double points for the last race of next season, is it turning into a bit of a circus?. Personally I dont like it at all.

[cyberpunky]

The double points is a joke IMO, that just shows the FIA have no respect for fans or drivers. If you go back and see what this would have done through the history of F1, we would virtually have had a different champion for every season. How can 1 result be twice as important as any other ? It is like the crap tyres they use to generate interest and sponser visiability during pit stops rather than using proper tyres that let the racers race.

[mockney999]

Agree and agree again, the tyres are one of the most irritating aspects of this new version of F1, I dont even like the fake overtaking aid DRS... although the KERS does seem like one aspect that works.

It's supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport yet they keep adding all these gimmicks and for me each one makes the sport a little less relevant.

I never had a problem with the sport in the past, yes the overtaking was less frequent but at least when it did happen it was driver and machine doing the overtaking, not because the other drivers tyres had fallen apart or because he wasnt able to open a flap on his rear wing.

As for this double points , well I just dont understand it at all.... total joke!.

[Carrera28]

For the old school amongst us, yesterday was the 20th anniversary of the death of Ayrton Senna at Imola, this video released by McLaren, enjoy:

 

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/heritage/ayrton-senna-20-years/

[Norm]

I'm an F1 tragic, so when I saw this thread I couldn't resist. And there's far less controseversey than I expected..

For me it's;

1. Senna

2. Prost

3. Lauda

With Stewart a close fourth.

For the modern era anyway.

I'm not sure you can really compare the older era's.

I was actually a Prost fan for many years and it was only toward the end of his career that I really supported Senna. But for me now, he was on another level..

It's a fact he was brilliant in the wet and many look at Donington '93 but Portugal '85 was a far greater achievement. I mean those things back then were producing a lot of horsepower with a lot of lag and in hindsight it was rudementary technology. So to drive like Senna did was incredible. He lapped the whole field bar second place. In Senna's own opinion it was one of his greatest drives. Better than Donington '93.

But there were more, like Brazil circa '91 where he was stuck in top gear and Monaco '84 in the wet.

Senna's qualifying efforts are also well documented, but there are a couple which really stand out; '88 Monaco where he was about 1.5 seconds faster than Prost and 2 seconds faster than third place. And a similar gap during the '91 Grand Prix at Spa.

And to finish off, he won more than a few races during '93 in a car he had no business winning ANY races in; against a far more technologically advanced beast in the Williams.

This all really does take away from Prost who really does deserve the title of The Professor. His downfall was the politics toward the end of his career.

Even though Lauda was only around as I started to watch Grand Prix, I rate him because he fought hard during his early days, then against very stiff competition, then against adversity and lastly in an era with new and different technology, against Prost..

Judging by the anecdotes and the record books, I think Stewart was up there with him and had some very good races at the Nurburgring, a place which he hated.

Stefan Belof is an interesting one. He holds the lap record at the Nurburgring in a 956 in '83 and a fact most people don't know is; while Senna was catching (and passed) Prost during the '84 Monaca Grand Prix, Belof was catching Senna..! (Belof was driving a NA car and Senna a turbo) Tragically we never saw his potential.

As good as Piquet was I don't believe he is one of the greatest. IMO he was in the right team, Brabham, at the right time, when Gordon Murray was there. He had talent and worked extremely hard with the team which resulted in a championship, which he deserved. Plus he won a championsh against Mansell, who was a worthy adversary, but again not someone to be called a great.

Schumi showed something special during qualifying at Spa in the Jordan, but I never really followed his career after '94. I was really put off by all the electronic gizmos and didn't follow F1 for over 10 years.. He was clearly a very good driver and certainly developed a team around him, and certainly put in some outstanding performances in some races but I don't rate his record and the context and period it was achieved. That era really was the Playstation era and feel it tarnished Grand Prix racing. And as many gimmicks as they have these days at least there is more input from the driver.

I'm enjoying F1 more since about 2010 and I believe Alonso is the outstanding talent of the decade. He is achieving more in the Ferrari than should be possible and this is really evident this year against Kimi.. Notwithstanding his championship years.

Having said all that, I still look at the WRC drivers with awe.. From the the group B era right through to Loeb and Ogier, and all the greats in between, who have only won single championships! They are earned with a lot of respect and hard work. They really are the poor cousin of the F1 glamour world.

When I get time I will be writing to Motorsport magazine regarding this 'issue' and their lack of input / coverage of WRC; those guys are truly special and deserve more acolades than they get.