randall Posted 19November, 2012 Report Share Posted 19November, 2012 Probably too early for you JD.... You need to spend about 6-12 months looking through car adds, inspecting few of them, reading about common faults/issues on the net, asking lots of questions, changing your mind few times on which model you like, going through a failed PPI (or two) - all part of becoming a seasoned 911 hunter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberpunky Posted 19November, 2012 Report Share Posted 19November, 2012 FWIW It may prove tough to get insurance on a non garaged car too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pauly Posted 19November, 2012 Report Share Posted 19November, 2012 This one for Comparison, has been at Lorbek's for a while. good hunting, we've all been there. Steve. http://www.lorbek.co..._Coupe/4282116/ I hear that place can get dodgy.. as i've been told from mates in that industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Man Posted 19November, 2012 Report Share Posted 19November, 2012 Probably too early for you JD.... You need to spend about 6-12 months looking through car adds, inspecting few of them, reading about common faults/issues on the net, asking lots of questions, changing your mind few times on which model you like, going through a failed PPI (or two) - all part of becoming a seasoned 911 hunter. I'm with randall JD. Take your time and really work out which model you are really after. Drive as many as possible and ask heaps of questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Man Posted 19November, 2012 Report Share Posted 19November, 2012 I hear that place can get dodgy.. as i've been told from mates in that industry. That car has been at Lorbek's for a very long time. Not that great looking in the flesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD! Posted 19November, 2012 Author Report Share Posted 19November, 2012 Probably too early for you JD.... You need to spend about 6-12 months looking through car adds, inspecting few of them, reading about common faults/issues on the net, asking lots of questions, changing your mind few times on which model you like, going through a failed PPI (or two) - all part of becoming a seasoned 911 hunter. Yes, you are completely right, as humans, we all get driven by scarcity, can't fall into that old trap! (it's the LAST car that will EVER be like this!!!! etc etc etc etc etc) FWIW It may prove tough to get insurance on a non garaged car too That's my next call, you may be right, and that may stall me... I'm with randall JD. Take your time and really work out which model you are really after. Drive as many as possible and ask heaps of questions. So many questions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD! Posted 20November, 2012 Author Report Share Posted 20November, 2012 *Warning - Monster post* OK. So decided to have a good 'ol yarn with a few sellers tonight to keep the journey moving... So after all the conversations, two things are apparent: 1.) Porsche owners generally don't like to sell their cars, all three 964 owners were selling due to new babies and kids... 2.) Porsche owners generally seem to be good blokes. (massive broad brushstroke from my four calls in total to people who had a vested interest in me 'liking' them, but they DO come across as blokes I would have a beer with) Anyhow, for now, the evolution of my thinking is pointing firmly to a 964, not a RS replica. I think get one first, and see how you progress. As a 964 will be an easier car to live with initially for a newb, and if it does end up on the street for a while at least (I know, I know blaspheme) the 964 would be a better car to be out there. So like most people (I assume?) I want a 964 C2 as I want to be able to track it maybe six times a year. I don't want to be more ambitions about these plans, as until I have tried it, can't know what the end outcome will be. But would definitley prefer a rear wheel drive C2 only. Here lise the first problem / challenge - finding a C2 for the right price. Anyhow, a hunt and conversations has led me to two C4 cars that both are close enough to the right price, and I like a lot. Then there is what I shall call 'The Red Herring' - The only C2 on carsales. Details below to throw out to the tribal council / brains trust. #1 - White 964 C4 1989 / NSW / 126,000 kms / $52k http://tinyurl.com/ckgaaer I LOVE the look of this car. I can see myself in it, I am already emotionally attached to it. My arm is out the window, I can hear the engine... I am a SUCKER for this look. I digress... This fella has had it serviced exclusively at Autohause in NSW. Says they know the car well and to speak to Grant. What do I love about this car: Pros: - Perfect colour - Perfect mags and stance - Bilstein springs, Eibach shocks new which get me this stance (cost him $4 ~ $5k) - FULL BODY RESPRAY in mid 2010 after he bought it with all dings taken out... is mint. (cost him $12 ~ $13k) - He is doing a new clutch next Friday, 30th!! Mechanic said that 2nd gear was 'notchy' whatever that means? It is the original clutch right now. - Strut brace, engine mounts - New carpet / head mounts Cons: - about eight owners - seats bit tired, but I am being SUPER picky... (clutching for a negative here) - No engine work e.g. rebuild... do they need them after xyz kms? - it's a C4.... So really, the only thing I dislike is that it is a C4... DAM IT. Please someone tell me it's easy to convert to a C2 - I know that the answer is it's not... #2 - Grey 964 C4 1990 / VIC / 86,000 kms / $58k http://tinyurl.com/dyzsnfb Ok, so car purchased off builder out in the bush near Shepparton, garaged all the time and not driven apparently... Original owner from Hong Kong, so it's an import. But does that REALLY matter? They all come from Germany Pros: - Good colour - Custom ECU upgrade by 9+ in Richmond - Some work done like: Rebuilt alternator, Bilstein shocks, Air intake, Secondary bypass, Brake lines, pads - Local Cons: - Casino red interior - Import? (does that really count?) - No engine rebuild... do they need them after xyz kms? - C4... #3 - Red 964 C2 - 1990 / 186k kms / $56k http://tinyurl.com/c96ezzx Major issue - I don't want red. Long and the short of it is that this car is basically mint and original. He bought it from Liam a mechanic at Porsche center Melb who got all parts @ cost. Pros: - Full rebuild of engine @ 145,000 kms - Oil pump, timing chains, new rings- Brakes stripped and fully restored + braided lines - Cross drilled front and rear rotors - New idle stabiliser valve - New knock sensors put in - Mechanical valves adjusted in Dec - Front bearings 18 months ago - Aftermarket engine mounts: Wevo Black top / Blue bottom - Porsche Melb say 'it's the tightest 964 they know of' as they still do all servicing - Basically perfect car Cons: - There is a small crack in the spoiler - 2cms - Old paint, swirls in it etc... - RED - I really don't like that colour - Would need me to do springs, wheels and ECU upgrade at least - Interior not my bag Nothing to the engine performance wise or springs / shocks. I would have to do the wheels, as I dislike the current look, would have to go black or something more stealth. Would have to do springs and shocks also, and probably a chip. Paint not sure, if it was white / silver / black we would not be having this conversation. That interior also... not ideal. I think to do just a few thinks I would need to spend say $5k on wheels, $5k on springs and shocks and maybe a ECU upgrade or SOMETHING. So call it over $10k at least pushing this to over $66k This is all before I am driving a car I really don't like the colour or interior of... I think that's the answer for the RED HERRING... --------------- OK so now I have written ALL that out, it seems like the white NSW is the clear winner. I do not know if I will track the car much, and YES I really do not want a C4 as the rear only driving experience is what I am after, but can the members offer me some driving experience, differences on this as I would love your views. Thanks guys.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberpunky Posted 20November, 2012 Report Share Posted 20November, 2012 I'd vote the red C2. IMO it has the best history and sounds like a very fine example, and making a bad example good can get expensive very quickly. You will be looking at the road when you are driving not the colour of your, car. That is what others see and you only see it when it's parked(although I could just look at my car all day lol). I am probably wrong but I always thought imports just aren't as valuable at aussie delivered, unless it is super rare or there are no aussie delivered variants. Oh and every one knows red cars are faster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD! Posted 20November, 2012 Author Report Share Posted 20November, 2012 It is by far the best looked after and best example of an original 964 on the market right now from what I have seen, but the issues are that it is still very old, the paint is very tired, the springs / shocks will be worn after 23 years of use and I would have to change the mags, as I just would HAVE to I couldn't own it as is, so would need to add that extra $10k + to make it a car I would own... Dam it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugh Posted 20November, 2012 Report Share Posted 20November, 2012 It seems like none of these cars appear to be the 'one', its hard but the wait will be worth it! I must admit, I have had my eye on the white one since it was listed, agree it looks the part (including the red belts). If only it was a C2! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD! Posted 20November, 2012 Author Report Share Posted 20November, 2012 Agggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Does look the business. Is a C4 that bad? Who has driven and can give me honest feedback of the real difference? Sure I can't just drop the dam front diff out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberpunky Posted 20November, 2012 Report Share Posted 20November, 2012 the mags could be done straight away without a huge addition to purchase price but all the rest could wait till you know exactly what you are going to do/budget allows The paint can be made a lot better with a bit of elbow grease, and very little expense. These cars usually came with decent shocks standard so not like a lot of cars with cheap shocks, although tired they can still be driven safely until suspension mods are planned and budgeted for. Often replacing the rubber bushings is more of an issue, and they are probably ok if the car is described as tight have to agree with Hugh if none of these are the right car then all you can do is wait Always go for the best example you can find Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Man Posted 21November, 2012 Report Share Posted 21November, 2012 Agggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Sure I can't just drop the dam front diff out? Yes you can........but it may be easier to build a space shuttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD! Posted 21November, 2012 Author Report Share Posted 21November, 2012 Yes you can........but it may be easier to build a space shuttle. Did some research. Yes, a space shuttle would be fractionally easier and probably cheaper. Resale value on space shuttle arguable. Still soul searching on the whole C2 vs C4 thing. The new mental issue is that if I go the C4 I think I will end up just having 'another car' and never mod it or track it etc which is half the appeal I think.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99TS3 Posted 22November, 2012 Report Share Posted 22November, 2012 If the car is out on the street I would give the red one a miss. The paint will fade very quickly once exposed to the elements plus red it will draw attention to di*kheads . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babalouie Posted 22November, 2012 Report Share Posted 22November, 2012 Is a C4 that bad? Who has driven and can give me honest feedback of the real difference? C4's AWD system is fiendishly complicated (they simplified it a lot for the 993 that followed), but just the same it doesn't seem to give much trouble. There are a few maintenance steps which are over and above a C2 (like having to bleed the fluid in the AWD system) but on the flipside, other jobs are somewhat easier than on a C2 (eg renewing the transmission mount), so overall it's probably six and two threes on the maintenance front. The only thing I can think of that crops up on the 964 forum at Rennlist, is that C4s can get this weird ABS issue, but it does seem to be quite rare. In terms of driving, a C4 weighs about 80kg more than a C2, but most of that weight is in the nose, so they have less of the oldschool bobbing lightness over the nose. In stock form some ppl say C4s understeer too much in low speed corners, but it seems to be something that gets dialled out as you mod the car....and since C4s tend to be cheaper than C2s, it *does* leave plenty in the kitty for some nice coilovers and/or other tweaks, so in the end it might not be such a big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD! Posted 24November, 2012 Author Report Share Posted 24November, 2012 C4's AWD system is fiendishly complicated (they simplified it a lot for the 993 that followed), but just the same it doesn't seem to give much trouble. There are a few maintenance steps which are over and above a C2 (like having to bleed the fluid in the AWD system) but on the flipside, other jobs are somewhat easier than on a C2 (eg renewing the transmission mount), so overall it's probably six and two threes on the maintenance front. The only thing I can think of that crops up on the 964 forum at Rennlist, is that C4s can get this weird ABS issue, but it does seem to be quite rare. In terms of driving, a C4 weighs about 80kg more than a C2, but most of that weight is in the nose, so they have less of the oldschool bobbing lightness over the nose. In stock form some ppl say C4s understeer too much in low speed corners, but it seems to be something that gets dialled out as you mod the car....and since C4s tend to be cheaper than C2s, it *does* leave plenty in the kitty for some nice coilovers and/or other tweaks, so in the end it might not be such a big difference. Thanks for the sound and clearly experienced advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD! Posted 24November, 2012 Author Report Share Posted 24November, 2012 Well, the plot thickens... I went to nine plus today to have a look at an SC, and then ended up at RSR chatting to Rob. He spent a lot of time with me talking through the 'challenges' I face first time around and making that all important decision... His opinion was that a 964 in any shape or form is going to be a lot more expensive than an SC or 80s Carrera and that that would be a more sound purchase. He said that the 964s can cost a bucket, and normally do as maintenance and fixing things costs far more that the previous generation of cars as everything stepped up in complexity. A VERY interesting thing he told me was that on that Red (RED HERRING) 964 C2 that is here is Vic, that Porsche Melb couldn't move it for the guy selling it, and they asked him to move it, he took a look, drove it over to nine + and put in on the hoist and said that it needs about $18k done to it. Including engine seals as it is leaking oil from the through bolts and that's about a $6k job as the whole engine needs to be dropped and split Put things into perspective very fast. I sat in a couple of SCs and one Carrera he had that seems very, very nice (too $$$$) but it had a lot of great stuff done to it. http://www.carsales.com.au/dealer/details/porsche-911-carrera-1984-13361762?eapi=2&base=1216&vertical=Car&cr=25&page=3&find=911%20carrera|CarAll&__N=1246+1252+1247+1282+4294963765+1216&num=15&silo=Stock&sort=~Year Powerful engine, everything seems nice apart from the price IMO. So next question to the team, is the whole '964 Vs Carrera 3.2' comments true as in do you get a lot more car and safer purchase with the 3.2 carrera or are 964s fine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugh Posted 24November, 2012 Report Share Posted 24November, 2012 Rob is a good guy to know, he is across pretty much any Porsches for sale in vic (or aus for that matter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugh Posted 24November, 2012 Report Share Posted 24November, 2012 The more I started learning about early 911's the more I appreciated the value of the 'impact bumper' cars of the post 73' era. I must say I like all the cars you have posted, the only thing is that you are paying more on all these cars for some non-original guards and a spray job. If you are set on the look your after than thats fine, but I would encourage as the others have to take them for a drive - at the end of the day you can turn pretty much any 911 into a 'retro' rs look, it whats on the inside that counts! As per a previous post, I agree with Rob. Take an SC or 3.2 for a drive, they are both great cars and ideal for a first Porsche. Sounds like a good excuse for an SMT so you can take a seat in a few cars! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD! Posted 24November, 2012 Author Report Share Posted 24November, 2012 As per a previous post, I agree with Rob. Take an SC or 3.2 for a drive, they are both great cars and ideal for a first Porsche. Sounds like a good excuse for an SMT so you can take a seat in a few cars! You did rightly mention that Hugh! What's an SMT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugh Posted 24November, 2012 Report Share Posted 24November, 2012 You did rightly mention that Hugh! What's an SMT? Sunday morning targa, there was quite a few of us on one earlier in the month. Usually a good mix of cars, relaxed drive and bit of breakfast - great way to spend a sunday morning if your ever free. Your Bmw is welcome in the meantime! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJames Posted 24November, 2012 Report Share Posted 24November, 2012 So next question to the team, is the whole '964 Vs Carrera 3.2' comments true as in do you get a lot more car and safer purchase with the 3.2 carrera or are 964s fine? Speaking as one who likes 964's, they are something of a "red headed step child" of the 911 world. (With apologies to red headed children everywhere.) 3.2's are revered as the ultimate "original" 911. 993's are revered as the last of the aircooled. And 964's fall somewhere in between. That may be because they were something of a stopgap in the development of the 911, at a time when the 911 had been the epitome of 80's conspicuous consumption. When the 964 came along, it was a scary time for Porsche, with the world reeling after a market crash and much belt tightening going on. Yes, they are more expensive than a 3.2 or SC to maintain, but that will be built into their asking price. So, to finally reach some sort of point, as ever, try lots to find one that "talks to you" and as long as you are buying a solid example, whatever aircooled Porsche you end up with, your money will be fairly safe if you decide to change your mind. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasserkuhl Posted 24November, 2012 Report Share Posted 24November, 2012 What James Said. "Find one that talks to you..." They all have their issues and you'd be setting yourself up for dissappointment if you expect to buy a Porsche and not have some 'interesting' Bills. 964's are really nice cars. Just as long as they have already had their faults put right...............Cylinder leaks, air vent on the Dizzy. Clutches. Steering Rack............. The only 964 to buy is a C2 Manual. Period. C4's are plentiful and expensive to repair (shared similar 4wd system of the 959.........$$$) However if you are a 911 Virgin, that C 3.2 at RSR that you had a link for...........thats a nice, sorted car (on the face of it) yes it may seem pricey..........but when you pay 45k for one and then have to spend another 25k on motor and Gearbox rebuild........................ Its just all about whether you pay it up front or throughout your owner ship. They are all 60k cars. Up front or over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red3.2 Posted 24November, 2012 Report Share Posted 24November, 2012 Hi JD, Agree with Wasserkuhl what said re the white one, had mine 7 Years and not too much expense, I was on the last SMT (check out Photos) Hugh's car looks great but would have spent $$$ getting there, look at Uncles post he is building a great car ( I think he is handy with the tools) so also $$$, mine goes in early next year for top end and the more, $$$, I see what these guys are doing the more i'm not worried about a "Virgin Porsche" if you think about going down the same path(and most of us do) the white one or one in same condition is well worth the money because you have a great car to start with and a lot of the work has be done Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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