au-yt Posted 11July, 2014 Report Share Posted 11July, 2014 Hi all, I don't have a problem with my car that I am aware of but I have been curious about some of the gearbox behavior and that led me to stumbling on some information about possible problems with the gearbox internal seals. I find this odd as most people say the Tiptronic is bullet proof but it doesn't seem quite that case. There are some 2009 alerts on the web about problems with the 993 box but one thing I did pick up was, don't put the car in neutral and rev the engine hard if you have been driving it. If you need to, ie at a Dyno, turn the engine off for 30 seconds and restart before reving. Apparently the internal seal leak out the center shaft and have serious consequences with the 2nd gear clutch pack. I found the list for the seals and the checking go-nogo gauge on eBay. http://www.ebay.fr/itm/SUPERIOR-ZF-K4HP22-CLUTCH-SHIFT-CORRECTION-KIT-/120399359809?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c085c6f41 What experience have others had? Cheers Graeme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M Posted 11July, 2014 Report Share Posted 11July, 2014 Graeme, To put this in prospective, the ZF 4HP22 transmission has been used in hundreds of thousands of cars of various brands over many years so the number of failures experienced is minuscule in the scheme of things. I think "bulletproof" is still a valid description. The seal leakage issue and the affect on the clutch pack has been reported before on this forum. However since revving in neutral isn't a part of my driving habit I'm not to worried. Regards Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
au-yt Posted 12July, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 12July, 2014 Hi Peter Thanks for the insight, I have changed the title of the thread to correctly reflect where I wanted the thread to focus. Before I bought my car I drove a couple of Manual C4's and found the clutch and location frankly torturous as I am not very tall (5’6”) have short legs….and felt like I was driving a RHD with pedals on the left due to the floor pan design for 4WD. I really love the duel nature of the 993 and the S in particular like others as much as I want to preserve the car I like mods that are bolt on replacements. I have been mulling over the gearbox and its programming control and ratios. As the Tip has from what I can read 5 different programs does any one know if there has been any software variations to the program with the aim of varying the lazy basic auto mode. Next question I note that there is a 5 speed version of the ZF 4HP22 called a ZF 5HP22 (der..) fitted to the 2002 2005 RANGE ROVER/V8 4.4L My experience with ZF gearboxes is they are evolutionary and often the basic “cores of the cases” are the same even the bolt patterns. I am fully aware of the issues with size and weight space as an issue however I thought it a worthy discussion point. It seems that when the 964 was in gestation money was an issue and the basic gearbox core was off the shelf with variations to the diff and end case and a external drive back to the diff, and from a discussion point because Manuals are the enthusiast choice autos are left alone... shame one more ratio in the 993 would be a bonus. Graeme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M Posted 12July, 2014 Report Share Posted 12July, 2014 Graham,Good idea to revise the thread title.Probably the most useful post I ever can across explaining how they were programmed was this one:http://rennlist.com/forums/9532215-post5.htmlAfter doing a whole lot of (very fun) experimentation with activating the sport mode, I find just going to full manual mode is the most practical approach to going faster. But I do love how clever it can be if you give it the right signals. It is a shame many drive these without understanding how to use them and are left with the impression they are doughy and unwilling.I agree that being limited to 4 speeds is probably the biggest giveaway to the "age" of these cars. Having only 4 speeds to cover quite a broad speed range results in a large spread of ratios. Something that gives the 6 speed manuals an immediate advantage that is best shown in the 0 to 100kph times.While it would be nice to have more ratios to choose from, going down that path is a slippery slope as what's next? Variable valve timing, overdrive for better economy, a water jacket for less mechanical noise, 4 valves per cylinder for a better shaped combustion chamber and more valve area?A slippery slope that leads to surprise surprise, a 996!Nah, 993's are just perfect how they are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
au-yt Posted 12July, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 12July, 2014 Hi Peter Wise words thank you.. I did the dutiful thing and re read the Owner’s Manual and it repeats the description in the link you have posted above. There is a bit of learning to do and that is probably what is needed on my behalf,not blaming tools of trade and all that... There are numerous throttle angles in the description of the 5 different modes and this is where I would like to learn more. one thing I have learnt is from the owners manual, if you move the trottle quickly the kickdown moves the box the to best ratio suited not just down gear. quite a bit of the programing is dependant on the the speed the throttle is moved. I will get my hands on one of the Tiptronic brochures and as the linked article says the seven pages of the Factory Repair Manual, which I assume is the Porsche Manual. Regards Graeme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted 12July, 2014 Report Share Posted 12July, 2014 4 speeds sounds like luxury! Peter M 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M Posted 13July, 2014 Report Share Posted 13July, 2014 Interesting story in the December 2011 edition of 911 & Porsche World magazine about Walter Rohrl's promotion of the then new Tiptronic transmission in a 964 Cup car. No real surprise that he could of handled an extra ratio or two to choose from but didn't do to badly at all: Russ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugh Posted 13July, 2014 Report Share Posted 13July, 2014 I love how it still looks so stock from the outside, only a very subtle visual difference from standard. (Apologies for the thread hijack). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M Posted 14July, 2014 Report Share Posted 14July, 2014 I love how it still looks so stock from the outside, only a very subtle visual difference from standard. (Apologies for the thread hijack).Actually thought of you when I posted it! hugh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
au-yt Posted 14July, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 14July, 2014 Peter, Many thanks its great article. Interesting they used a different ECU for racing which held the clutches open to 5000 in first gear. shame the factory didnt take note of his comments about rations. I am still triying to locate the Porsche description operations in the overhaul manual, the sevice manual doesnt cover it. Graeme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M Posted 14July, 2014 Report Share Posted 14July, 2014 I am still triying to locate the Porsche description operations in the overhaul manual, the sevice manual doesnt cover it. GraemeGraeme,I have a copy of the factory workshop manual and it's explanation of the transmission is limited, so maybe that poster is referring to something else?Probably the best "tech" I know of is in Adrian Streather's book: au-yt and Russ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
au-yt Posted 14July, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 14July, 2014 Peter More great info, thank you again and this helps identify the functions of the various components. The owners hand book also has an overview of the functions which are also helpful but not as descriptive as I would have thought. A description of each mode would help. There appears to be 4 angles of the throttle that effect the ECU 25% 30% and 100%. kick down. It measure how quickly you move the throttle both down and up and how far but in some modes will kick down to the lowest gear the ECU sees appropriate for the rpm. I read this as when driving spiritedly on open roads at legal speeds it should kick down to 2nd gear… Fun things identified so far, the rev protection part of the Manual mode makes for a bit of fun. Select Manual mode. 1st gear selected floor throttle and hold 6800 into second 6800 into third and you are in 6 points territory... too easy. Place and location withheld. Back to more serious things the temp sensor on the gearbox is interesting in that it changes the shift points to cool the box, and this may be why in some cases the car appears to match the gear and then 2 seconds latter engages the gear and it is the temp that may cause this although it would just be the program the car is in. I am surprised it only has .9 liter of oil in the gearbox....Oh and the hand book identifies the Manual box as heavier than the Auto or is that a miss print... Graeme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M Posted 14July, 2014 Report Share Posted 14July, 2014 LOL, I'm pleased to hear that I'm not the only one here to enjoy my Tip and to get up to a fair serve of mischief at the same time!Mine seems to be more sensitive to the speed of the throttle angle change rather that the actual extent of throttle opening. ie often going to WOT won't cause a kickdown but a rapid waggle of the throttle will always get it into the meaty part of the rev range quick smart (and usually a laugh out loud by me.)Also when mine is in manual mode, it will run to the rev limiter and not change up. (Not that I make a habit of this and have only tried this in 3rd) Mine's a very early build 993 so maybe they programmed this in as a protection on the later 993's like yours?Your comment about the soft and slow shift is because I think it is still in the comfort map and is not due to a temperature protection issue. To protect the transmission from high temperatures I would expect the shifts to be quick and firm and the torque converter to be locked as much as possible to minimise heat generation.Yes the differential on the Tips cars only holds 900ml so it is probably a good idea to change regularly given all the hooning you're doing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted 15July, 2014 Report Share Posted 15July, 2014 does the torque converter ever lock on a tiptronic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M Posted 15July, 2014 Report Share Posted 15July, 2014 Russ,My understanding and observation is it is only actually unlocked in first (to make use of the torque multiplication) and during gear changes (to allow smoother changes without the need to moderate the throttle opening. The ignition is also momentarily retarded during the actual change and the speed of relocking is also varied depending on what "map" the transmission is operating on at the time).At all other times it is locked up as tight as drum to the point that it feels like a manual car in terms of its sensitivity to the throttle and the engine braking effect. Quite a different feel to the automatic work cars I normally drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M Posted 15July, 2014 Report Share Posted 15July, 2014 Following on from above, the table below shows the rpm and road speed in each gear. It also shows the effect of the unlocked torque convertor in first with the "slip" shown by the difference between the solid and dashed lines:The wide ratios is particularly apparent if you compare the above with the 6 speed table below:Sorry, I couldn't crop my scans! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
au-yt Posted 15July, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 15July, 2014 Peter a very apt description "At all other times it is locked up as tight as drum to the point that it feels like a manual car in terms of its sensitivity to the throttle and the engine braking effect. Quite a different feel to the automatic work cars I normally drive." I believe that the Tip is much miss understood because people see it as just an Auto, the only time it feels like an auto is in comfort/economy mode, the rest of the time it is like a 4 speed manual. What is also a bonus is the cruise control or Tempomat in German, it engine brakes going downhill, weird the first time it happens. I have purchased a copy of the Porsche Tiptronic brochure to add to the collection of documents for the car, So far I have managed to identify a couple of modes and the following list I would like to expand on as I learn more ans would love other Tri owners input to the following Comfort (Auto) – < 25% throttle moved slowly -basically an automatic gearbox but with a locked torque converter. Brisk (Auto) ( open to suggestions on this one) throttle pushed past> 25% slowly, holds the gears longer. Brisk plus (Auto) throttle rapidly past> 25% to 50% Kicks down to first gear and holds the gears Sports (Auto) mode that detects rapid throttle movements and holds gears and is combined with the lateral accelerometer to hold a lower gear in corners Manual – when selector is in the manual position needs input to hold gears however in the S model changes up gears at the rev limiter. In all the Auto modes rapid foot movement on and off and full throttle to kick down wake the hole system up, how long it hold the mode is something I have not worked out yet. Cheers Graeme Peter M 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M Posted 15July, 2014 Report Share Posted 15July, 2014 Graeme,I found the Tiptronic system description in the "diagnosic" section of the workshop manual (doh!)and will scan and post tonight. Everything you wanted to know and more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted 15July, 2014 Report Share Posted 15July, 2014 Following on from above, the table below shows the rpm and road speed in each gear. It also shows the effect of the unlocked torque convertor in first with the "slip" shown by the difference between the solid and dashed lines: hope I'm not hijacking your thread with dirty sportomatic talk, but that chart looks so familiar (on a 4 speed 925 though) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevepGT3 Posted 15July, 2014 Report Share Posted 15July, 2014 I have a PDF 993 service manual that is 380kb if anyone wants a copy, pm me your email and I will send it to you if its not too big to send dragon02 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M Posted 16July, 2014 Report Share Posted 16July, 2014 Guys,The "mystery" pages from the workshop manual that is often referred to in Tip threads that explains the programming better than anything else I have seen: Russ and au-yt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M Posted 16July, 2014 Report Share Posted 16July, 2014 hope I'm not hijacking your thread with dirty sportomatic talk, but that chart looks so familiar (on a 4 speed 925 though) Russ,It's interesting to see the effect of 20 years of technology.Can't close those ratio gaps though! Russ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted 16July, 2014 Report Share Posted 16July, 2014 interesting comparing the top speed too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5032 Posted 16July, 2014 Report Share Posted 16July, 2014 I would never have considered a tip prior to purchasing and subsequently reading a variety of forums including this one...if I was to buy another a 964 or 993 tip would definitely be on the shopping list...I want to actually drive one now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
au-yt Posted 16July, 2014 Author Report Share Posted 16July, 2014 G5032 you hit the nail on the head and what amazes me that Porsche didn’t exploit the Tiptronic virtues more than they, or did I miss that memo,......... so to speak. Peter Wow reading this makes me even more pleased I decided to by a Tip over a manual for its shear usability and its capabilities. So from what I have now read my original thoughts on the 5 maps isn’t too far of the mark . There is 5 maps overlaid with other interacting inputs so there is almost different dimensions to the various maps. So from my initial thoughts it does things by design I didn’t expect and hence my concerns which I now know were baseless. Very impressive. Cheers Graeme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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