Martini racing Oils

[Pauly]

I don't see why people would use something else other than factory recommended oil...  

[StevepGT3]

I think that one of the biggest cons is that some (not all )  of the dealers /workshops want to carry only one oil to cover all the cars that they service,therefore they look for one that theoretically covers all bases

[StevepGT3]

I don't see why people would use something else other than factory recommended oil...  

especially when it has never been heard of to not work

[Russ]

I see absolutely no reason at all not to use factory specified 20W-50 in my 1978-1985 air and water cooled Porsches.

It makes shopping for oil unstressful. 

I listen to the mechanics rather than the oil marketers. They seem to live in the real world of changing climates, changing owners and variously changing driving habits.

 

And as the mafia boss in the original Italian Job would say re the Classic oil : "Nice can...pretty can"

 

this. I use whatever my mechanic who works on lots of different cars in a week suggests

 

and i'm pretty sure oil technology has come on a bit in 35 years

[Pauly]

this. I use whatever my mechanic who works on lots of different cars in a week suggests

 

and i'm pretty sure oil technology has come on a bit in 35 years

 

Depends what he works on.. if he worked on only classics, he'd know about the older oils a lot better than knowing all oils. 

if that makes sense. Not saying he doesn't but usually the classic shops know more specific things about older cars than general mechanics. 

[tazzieman]

It's very important to find a mechanic at least as old as your car!

As for new technology , well panadol and ventolin are still around after all these years, because they work.

[TINGY]

"Oils aint oils.........sol", I still refer back to that lengthy article written by Bruce Buchanan, surely he can't be wrong he's stripping them down and looking at the actual worn parts.

 

I'll keep doing what he recommends.

 

I had a high performance enduro motorbike that I flogged through the bush on mineral oil when everyone kept telling me that I had to run synthetic.

My engine got pulled down after 9500 kms for a top to bottom rebuild and was in better nick than the same engines that had run synthetic.

 

Mineral or "synthetic" oil was recommended for this bike and I changed it every 400kms.

 

Keep it simple I say, the oil companies are trying to over complicate it for us and we march to their beat. 

[Peter M]

I don't see why people would use something else other than factory recommended oil...

 

A few months ago when I looked up the oil manufacturers website I couldn’t understand the difference between their recommendations and those in my 30 year old 911 Drivers Manual either.  In fact I think I even posted about my lack of confidence with the website recommendations at the time.

I also couldn’t understand the inconsistencies in the hot ambient recommendations in the drivers manual between the straight grade oils and the multigrades.  For example the Manual doesn’t show any upper ambient temperature limits on either the straight 40 grade or 20w-50’s.  ie they are both equally recommended for high ambient temperatures.

 

Then I did some reading and some more reading to the point that printing off product data sheets, API, ACEA and SAE publications became a common “foreigner” at work.

 

The key things I think we forget are:

1) Porsche’s viscosity recommendations of 30 years ago are for the oils that were commonly available at that time and importantly, considered the performance limitations of those oils.  Remember, at that time, multigrade oils had only been in common use about 20 years and there was a clear expectation that the 20w-50’s for example would quickly shear down to a 20w-40 and less in use as the viscosity index improvers used were not as robust as they are today.  I suspect this is the reason that the Drivers Manual recommends either a 20w-50 or straight 40 as offering the same hot temperature protection.

2) The SAE viscosity grades are so broad that they are nearly useless when trying to compare one oil to another.  Further, the kinematic viscosities that the SAE grades are based on are simply a measure of how long it takes for the oil to flow through a standardised orifice under gravity at 40c and 100c.   Not exactly a rigorous test that replicates the effects of shear and the higher temperatures that the oil is exposed to in practice.  It was only in the late 90’s that the High Temperature, High Shear (HTHS) test undertaken at 150c became common place and better replicates the actual hot oil viscosity in practice.  When comparing oils, this should be our first point of truth. 

3) Taz reminds us that Porsche has been building these engines a long time and should know what they are talking about when it comes to oil recommendations.  I agree and what they have done to keep owners abreast of continuing improving oil technology, since the supplied Driver’s Manual becomes a relic in time, is to issue engine oil accreditations and a regular technical service bulletin with their recommendations for engine oils suitable for our post 1984 cars.  I’m sure we have all seen (and obviously ignored!) the “Porsche A40” accreditation.  It is also interesting to note that of their 60 or so oil recommendations worldwide, of the most recent bulletin I could access, only 2 are actually xw-50 oils and the rest are Xw-40’s.

 

4) The Xw-40 oils that the oil manufacturer websites recommend are not subject to API phosphorous limits, unlike the Xw-20’s and Xw-30’s, so they have sufficient ZDDP plus all the other modern anti wear compounds that  we need. 

 

So you could say I have changed my view of what’s best for a street driven car.

[tazzieman]

 

So you could say I have changed my view of what’s best for a street driven car.

 

Including water pumpers?

BB feels using less than 20w-50 oil in a 928 may cause thrust bearing failure. That is the dread of all sharkowners , together with timing belt failures. 

[Peter M]

Including water pumpers?

BB feels using less than 20w-50 oil in a 928 may cause thrust bearing failure. That is the dread of all sharkowners , together with timing belt failures.

Yes.

BB is well known for his "thick is good" view and it has certainly served him well. He is also well known on forums by clashing with people like Doug Hillary who is of the "just thick enough is best" school. You may know him from places like this http://www.landsharkoz.com/tt/ttlubricant.htm

It is unfortunately that often threads on these matters, like religion and politics gets sidetracked onto personal attacks. I hope we don't get to that point and can continue to exchange facts, be open to new ideas and calmly separate the wheat from the chaff.  

[tazzieman]

Dont worry Peter I read very widely indeed and have sat back and watched "wars" in many types of forums, including the famous Bruce vs Doug stoushes!

A lot of people are "just thick enough" to get their opinion across. I certainly don't raise a sweat or even a single blood pressure point over vroom vrooms  

Deciding "for yourself" is a skill not many possess.

 

This should be stickied on every forum

 

[LeeM]

An old mate used to receive discounts buying 2 big drums from a supplier for his customers cars.

He never put it in his own cars and used Penrite.

Just because a mechanic has it in his workshop doesnt mean it's recommended.

The 'Porsche oil' in the cool can is what someone else said, a marketing thing I reckon.

I'll probably use Penrite in my 912, as I've used it in all my cars over the years and never had a problem

[Peter M]

.....Porsche’s......recommendations of 30 years ago are for the oils that were commonly available at that time and importantly, considered the performance limitations of those oils.....

I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds all the different specifications overwhelming. Linked is Lurizol's graphical comparison tool that allows you to see how specifications have changed and improved over time. While not perfect since test methods have also changed over this time and not all standards such as phosphorous limits are applied equally over all SAE grades for example, it is still useful.

Also allows comparisons between the API specs - only back to SL, not way way back to SF that was the specified service classification in Pauly's driver's manual above - and say Porsche's or the myriad of VW and MB ones.

http://www.lubrizol.com/apps/relperftool/pc.html

I'm out of here. I foresee a new year's resolution of no more long oil posts from me. (Yes, yes collective sigh of relief from PFA community!)

[tazzieman]

Hey Peter , I think you should resolve to perform oil analyses and look at the various engine wear parameters. Controlled conditions e.g. each analysis reflects 3 months of normal driving  then 3 months of backing in and out of the garage then 3 months of racing. Try 3 different types of oil and report back ; a study sample of 1 should be enough   Except you've got 2x911s,  so there's a few extra oil changes for you!

 

[insert thread get out clause here]

 

OK

 

[Peter M]

Merry Christmas to you too Taz!

[HowardMoon]

Jeez, I turn my back on you blokes for 5 minutes and this is what you get up to... maybe someone with some seniority can get a mod to rename this thread to "Solutions in Search of a Problem"??

 

I can just see it:

 

Wife walking in on hubby at computer - "You're at it again aren't you?"

Hubby, hurriedly minimising window, blushing and looking guilty "No, I was just, um..."

Wife "Oh for god sake stop the lies Tristan you were on those damn engine oil websites again, weren't you?!"

Hubby - "No really, I was just looking at um, at ah, the updates on ummm... Underage Schoolgirls in the Farmyard.."

Wife - "Do you think I was born yesterday? Why did you shut it down so quickly when I came in?"

Hubby - "I didn't. It must have, um, dropped out or something..."

Wife, looking closely at screen - "AHA! Bob is the f**king Oil Guy! I knew it!"

Hubby hangs head in shame.

Wife - "And what the hell have you been doing in the garage late at night? There's been some strange noises coming from there.."

Hubby mumbles something.

Wife - "Oh speak up you pathetic little man! Spit it out!"

Hubby lifts his head a little, "Building a Vickers wear tester..." he confesses.

Wife - "Oh Tristan why can't you let it go? Look at you, bags under the eyes, not eating, sneaking peaks at oil sites on your phone.. and I'm finding data sheets hidden under the bottom drawer. It's an addiction! Why can't you be more like Dave next door?"

Hubby - "What, fat and uncouth?"

Wife - "No you idiot, he's got a nine-second LS3 and he just chucks 15/40 Rimula in it, he doesn't neglect his family by spending all his time on oil research"

Hubby - "B b b but he drives a Holden. I've got a Porsche"

Wife - "So?"

Hubby - "I can't just put common Holden (grimace) oil into it! It's got to be special! Expensive oil, imported specially from Switzerland!"

Wife - "I see. I wonder what the Swiss guys use then?"

Hubby taps at the keyboard and quickly logs in to the Swiss forums "Apparently they import Delo 400 from some bloke in Rooty Hill, $890 per 20 litres.. they reckon it's the ducks guts..."

Wife - "Oh Tristan you've got to get on top of this somehow! What if the kids catch you at it? Or if someone gets a hold of your laptop? There must be gigabytes of oil specs on there, you'd be locked up forever. You need something to take your mind off this damned addiction."

Hubby, tears in eyes - "Like what?"

Wife - "I dunno, maybe we could get into partner-swapping. I'll have a word with Dave if you like..."

 

Seriously, oil analysis isn't going to tell you anything unless you're using something that's really stupidly inappropriate. There simply won't be enough to measure over that timeframe unless something is failing for some other reason.

[tazzieman]

 

Seriously, oil analysis isn't going to tell you anything unless you're using something that's really stupidly inappropriate. There simply won't be enough to measure over that timeframe unless something is failing for some other reason.

Exactly , but where is the peer reviewed case controlled scientific case study in all of this?

It is a science isn't it? 

Or is it a taste test , like wine?

lol

[HowardMoon]

Exactly , but where is the peer reviewed case controlled scientific case study in all of this?

http://papers.sae.org/1999-01-3001/

 

http://papers.sae.org/720303/

 

http://papers.sae.org/770644/

 

http://papers.sae.org/2011-32-0536/

 

There are hundreds of oil-analysis papers like these out there, probably thousands. The quality of SAE papers can be a bit variable and a lot of them are a bit long in the tooth but for 24 bucks a pop they're infinitely better value than all the forum posts in the world...

[tazzieman]

Re aircooled engines , build 50 identical engines  then play with a few scenarios , then crunch the data meaningfully i.e. without bias.

 

Anything less is like poor old Pete Evans and his disciples pushing the paleo diet ; lots of theory - but little in the way of scientific analysis.

 

But I always say , if you believe in magic - it works!

[TINGY]

Hey Pete, even your missus is over the oil analysis, remember that conversation, I can't believe you dragged her into this as well!

[Peter M]

It's just like a train wreck, we just can't look away!
 
I can't believe Howard's back.  I though he was the strong one.......
 
 
Anyway I blame Tit for sparking my interest when he posted some photos of his rockers:

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-gSXQWNX/0/XL/i-gSXQWNX-XL.jpg

Funny thing is that failure has nothing to do with engine oil, ZDDP or even Unicorn semen. It's most likely started due to corrosion pitting and is well known in the general aviation industry. Why's it caused? To much sitting around not being used that is made worse by short ground run ups that don't get the engine hot enough to vaporise the moisture in the oil which then causes acids that the low ash oils they use can't neutralise and corrosion sets in. Except for the low ash oils, can you see any parallels to our cars?

So my parting belief (for a street driven car in good condition) is:

• Pick the lightest viscosity recommended by the manufacturer that ALSO gives you satisfactory oil pressure for the ambient conditions you operate in,
• Drive it regularly to keep corrosion at bay and long enough to get the oil hot,
• Buy a name brand.

The rest doesn't matter!
 
It's been fun and a learning experience.

auf wiedersehen

[tazzieman]

So my parting belief (for a street driven car in good condition) is:

• Pick the lightest viscosity recommended by the manufacturer that ALSO gives you satisfactory oil pressure for the ambient conditions you operate in,
• Drive it regularly to keep corrosion at bay and long enough to get the oil hot,
• Buy a name brand.

 

 

Excellent summary  I'll do that!

[tazzieman]

You can check coolant pH , I wonder about oils , given all those nasty acids?

Install a pH gauge ; people love installing extra gauges!

[HowardMoon]

So my parting belief (for a street driven car in good condition) is:

• Pick the lightest viscosity recommended by the manufacturer that ALSO gives you satisfactory oil pressure for the ambient conditions you operate in,
• Drive it regularly to keep corrosion at bay and long enough to get the oil hot,
• Buy a name brand.

 

 Sanity at last...

 

You can check coolant pH , I wonder about oils , given all those nasty acids?

 

 

One of the things that's always checked in an oil analysis is TBN (total base number), a test of the oils residual alkalinity. I've never seen it become a problem though I guess if you had enough short runs on an engine it could become so. You know those guys that put a car or an engine into storage but run it for 10 minutes every month or so? I don't know why they do it, but it certainly doesn't do the engine any favours.

[tazzieman]

 You know those guys that put a car or an engine into storage but run it for 10 minutes every month or so? I don't know why they do it, but it certainly doesn't do the engine any favours.

Yes , I know all about those guys , poor souls!

As you know it costs as much to keep older cars garaged as it does when you drive them, when you properly analyse things.