996 IMS Issue - How real is it?

[firstone]

Left field I know but.

I had a mate had a cracked head issue on his 4x4. Short story he claimed on insurance, successfully. Worth a shot...

[Skidmarks]

Thanks guys. Sh#t happens. 

I'd been driving the car as per normal (caning it ...) and no issues, noises, odd pressures etc.  I think we caught it early. Could have been a big issue if I'd not been conscious of the service being a little overdue.

So it'll get the full freshen up now.

At least I'll have the comfort of really knowing the state of the motor once its been rebuilt. The previous owner won't have given it a hard time but then again, who knows.  Could just be one of those things.

I have a set of rebuilt 04 Cup Car heads from back in the day.  Might think about using them!  The GT3RS was used to homolgate those heads so it'd be true to type ....

Or maybe I'll just leave well enough alone otherwise with my form I'll end up with a bl##dy RSR.

I've also used the opportunity to tidy up some paint - gravel rash etc. 

 

[tazzieman]

Left field I know but.

I had a mate had a cracked head issue on his 4x4. Short story he claimed on insurance, successfully. Worth a shot...

WTH? Who's he with? He must know the assessor "very well"!

[Skidmarks]

Left field I know but.

I had a mate had a cracked head issue on his 4x4. Short story he claimed on insurance, successfully. Worth a shot...

Indeed.  I'll have a look. 

[firstone]

Don't know. I only worked with him for four months and the head fix was concluded after I left.

The 4x4 forum's have a lot of contaminated fuel stories, meaning pump rebuild claims paid. Water immersion too.

Costs nothing to ask.

[Mike737]

Thanks guys. Sh#t happens. 

I'd been driving the car as per normal (caning it ...) and no issues, noises, odd pressures etc.  I think we caught it early. Could have been a big issue if I'd not been conscious of the service being a little overdue.

So it'll get the full freshen up now.

At least I'll have the comfort of really knowing the state of the motor once its been rebuilt. The previous owner won't have given it a hard time but then again, who knows.  Could just be one of those things.

I have a set of rebuilt 04 Cup Car heads from back in the day.  Might think about using them!  The GT3RS was used to homolgate those heads so it'd be true to type ....

Or maybe I'll just leave well enough alone otherwise with my form I'll end up with a bl##dy RSR.

I've also used the opportunity to tidy up some paint - gravel rash etc. 

 

That was really lucky! Glad to hear it's all being sorted.

There's nothing wrong with an RSR either! (unless your wallet or other half demands otherwise)

[dan_189]

Just recently got the news ... ordered the major service on my newly acquired 04 GT3 CS and got the fateful call:-

"Erm, mate - we cut the filter and well, do you have time to come down and take a look?"  Seems there was a little metal particulate in the filter.  ARGH!! 

The thing only has 38000km on it so not sure of cause yet but the engines out already so soon we'll know.  I'm tipping bearings.

A new thread on the rebuild?

Sorry to hear! Who's working on the engine for you if you don't mind me asking?

As for the IMS as the American's say treat it as a wear item and replace it when you get a clutch done (provided the car is a manual).

There are also four "models" of LN bearing FWIW:

IMS solution - "plain" oil fed bearing (never needs to be replaced), LN classic - ceramic single row bearing, LN dual pro - double row bearing that fits in place of an original single row bearing, double row ceramic bearing to replace dual row (early 996s). With the exception of the solution the pro and double row (not the classic) have an expected lifespan of 75k miles (~120,700 kms) or 6 years as per the LN website.

[Skidmarks]

Sorry to hear! Who's working on the engine for you if you don't mind me asking?

As for the IMS as the American's say treat it as a wear item and replace it when you get a clutch done (provided the car is a manual).

There are also four "models" of LN bearing FWIW:

IMS solution - "plain" oil fed bearing (never needs to be replaced), LN classic - ceramic single row bearing, LN dual pro - double row bearing that fits in place of an original single row bearing, double row ceramic bearing to replace dual row (early 996s). With the exception of the solution the pro and double row (not the classic) have an expected lifespan of 75k miles (~120,700 kms) or 6 years as per the LN website.

The engine is getting done by Ray Dick who has been building my engines for the last 15 years.  He cut his teeth on the air cooled stuff and his favourite setup is an early motor that runs big comp, dual plugs, Himalayan spec cams and turns to a gazillion revs whilst running slide injection.  A true Porsche nutter.  I'm contracting him in through Shaun Cairns new raceshop,  Werks Garage, who takes care of the race cars and my fast road stuff.

Ray's a complete wiz on the GT3 and Cup Car motors.  A few year back we were building an engine for my Australian GT series Series 1 GT3 and trialling some 997 heads and cams when he rings me up and tells me it's going to be another week or so as he was dialling in the cams and setting the cam timing bu wasn't happy with the factory tool so was making his own to get it absolutely right.  No sh#t.  A Porsche factor mechanic looked at the new tool and called it a thing of beauty and asked if one could be made for him to use! 

As for the IMS, the C4S is in now to get the classic fitted.  Toby at Cairns Service is doing that for me as Shaun is flat chat prepping cars for the coming year of club racing, circuit stuff and rallying as wel as building a hot rod for customer and building a new IROC car.

[Skidmarks]

Update.

The IMS is going into the C4S today.  No issues found with the one there but found some other stuff ...

Cracks in all 6 coil packs.  Ouch.

Doughnut to front needs replacing.  Ouch.

Needs new clutch and dual mass flywheel.  Ouch, Ouch.  Toyed with the idea of getting something more "sporty" but put it out of my mind.  Its a road car ...

Looking forward to getting it back and really showing it who's boss!  Getting it back by early next week

GT3 motor out and being torn down as I write.  I'm hoping its all pretty straight forward and whatever it was I caught early but my inner pessimist has me counting the days before I get the "mate, got some time to come down and look at this?"

Oh, and whilst I had the car immobile, I sent it to get some paint touch ups and fixing of gravel rash. 

Anyone out there familiar with the term "scope creep"?  The guy who owns the shop doing the work is a great mate so decided that I wouldn't be happy with a bit of splash and run and "suggested" I look at something a little more "comprehensive" to do the car justice. 

Apparently, "let me think about it" in fact meant "sure, take out the glass, rip off the doors and guards, take it all back, deal with all small dents and paint imperfections (aka the whole f**&%^$ body) and get the sucker ready for the Amelia Island concourse". 

Lucky I trust him!  He did add that what he really wanted to do was trial a new Glasurit concoction and that the paint and extra prep was on him so long as I could show the car to people. Oh, OK then ...

Never a dull moment.

[Mike737]

Glad to hear it's repairable and not terminal.

I've enquired about touch ups on mine and it's the same story, whole car for a few chips around the bonnet and front bar

[reggiegums]

Update.

The IMS is going into the C4S today.  No issues found with the one there but found some other stuff ...

Cracks in all 6 coil packs.  Ouch.

Doughnut to front needs replacing.  Ouch.

Needs new clutch and dual mass flywheel.  Ouch, Ouch.  Toyed with the idea of getting something more "sporty" but put it out of my mind.  Its a road car ...

Looking forward to getting it back and really showing it who's boss!  Getting it back by early next week

GT3 motor out and being torn down as I write.  I'm hoping its all pretty straight forward and whatever it was I caught early but my inner pessimist has me counting the days before I get the "mate, got some time to come down and look at this?"

Oh, and whilst I had the car immobile, I sent it to get some paint touch ups and fixing of gravel rash. 

Anyone out there familiar with the term "scope creep"?  The guy who owns the shop doing the work is a great mate so decided that I wouldn't be happy with a bit of splash and run and "suggested" I look at something a little more "comprehensive" to do the car justice. 

Apparently, "let me think about it" in fact meant "sure, take out the glass, rip off the doors and guards, take it all back, deal with all small dents and paint imperfections (aka the whole f**&%^$ body) and get the sucker ready for the Amelia Island concourse". 

Lucky I trust him!  He did add that what he really wanted to do was trial a new Glasurit concoction and that the paint and extra prep was on him so long as I could show the car to people. Oh, OK then ...

Never a dull moment.

What was the cost of the IMS fix and which one did you get?

I think i'll do my C4S too.

[dan_189]

GT3, GT2 and turbo cars don't have the IMS bearing issue. They have a plain internal bearing which is what the "IMS solution" developed by flat 6 and manufactured by LN engineering is based on.  

[Russ]

I have heard it is most common in cars that were molly coddled and never driven properly(IMO). If the engine is revved out regulary it keeps oil in IMS but cars that never see the right side of 3000 RPM the IMS can be starved. No idea how true this is but would make me steer clear of any cars owned by elderly librarians<joke Im sure some would drive the cars properly

I'd also cough up for the fix, as no one wants a 25K bill

the IMS bearing is meant to be a sealed unit, the seal deteriorating and engine oil getting into the bearing is one type of failure (among others). So getting oil in there is bad. There's an LN Engineering kit that turns the bearing into an oil fed unit instead of sealed though, as well as replacing the bearing altogether. There used to be a thing called 'IMS Defender' but that was a light/buzzer that came on to warn you there was metal parts in your oil (similar technology to what they use in aircraft) - basically like "hey the clock is ticking before your engine implodes"

I think there's a lot of stories about driving hard being better than not (as well as the inverse) but I think it's really luck of the draw if it happens to each car. 

But it is blown out of proportion on the Internet, much alike pulled head studs in a 2.7 has been for the past 20 years (although that probably affects more cars)

[Skidmarks]

What was the cost of the IMS fix and which one did you get?

I think i'll do my C4S too.

I went for the IMS Solution that dan_189 refers to.  It's about $2500 installed so not cheap but the peace of mind as well as being able to say it's been done if you ever sell is worth it I think. 

Glad to hear it's repairable and not terminal.

I've enquired about touch ups on mine and it's the same story, whole car for a few chips around the bonnet and front bar

but we're happy and that's all that matters! ?

the IMS bearing is meant to be a sealed unit, the seal deteriorating and engine oil getting into the bearing is one type of failure (among others). So getting oil in there is bad. There's a kit that turns the bearing into an oil fed unit instead of sealed though

I think there's a lot of stories about driving hard being better than not (as well as the inverse) but I think it's really luck of the draw if it happens to each car. 

But it is blown out of proportion on the Internet, much alike pulled head studs in a 2.7 has been for the past 20 years (although that probably affects more cars)

and chain tensioner failures pre 3.2 ...

[Russ]

 IAM_911 (Ammar) from this forum did a fairly thorough investigation himself regarding the IMS, and installed his own solution, it's a very detailed thread and worth checking out

GT3, GT2 and turbo cars don't have the IMS bearing issue. They have a plain internal bearing which is what the "IMS solution" developed by flat 6 and manufactured by LN engineering is based on.  

The GT3/GT2 and Turbo engines don't have an Intermediate Shaft (IMS), so no requirement for a bearing (the cam chains are on the same side as the earlier engines and gear driven, whereas the M96 have them on the other end, and the IMS transfers 'drive' to them) and it's fed by engine oil, so i guess they could say it's 'developed' from, it's a pretty long bow to draw on their behalf.

 

[reggiegums]

I went for the IMS Solution that dan_189 refers to.  It's about $2500 installed so not cheap but the peace of mind as well as being able to say it's been done if you ever sell is worth it I think. 

but we're happy and that's all that matters! ?

and chain tensioner failures pre 3.2 ...

$2,500 is not expensive either.

Is it locally available? and can pretty much any independent Porsche workshop just order the part locally and do the job?  

[Skidmarks]

$2,500 is not expensive either.

Is it locally available? and can pretty much any independent Porsche workshop just order the part locally and do the job?  

yes, it's available to local suppliers. The guys that did mine actually went over to the US to visit LN and do a little training but I'm sure that most reputable independents could do the job. As I understand it there are some really good guys operating out of Perth so you should be right. 

[Macca]

I bought this one - another option perhaps

http://www.vertexauto.com/ShowItem/294103 IMS Intermediate Shaft Bearing Upgrade Eternal Fix.aspx

 

[dan_189]

I bought this one - another option perhaps

http://www.vertexauto.com/ShowItem/294103 IMS Intermediate Shaft Bearing Upgrade Eternal Fix.aspx

 

The Americans fight about ball bearing vs. roller bearing. I went the L&N because of their reputation. If I was going to do it again i'd consider "the solution" was only that the bill for a new clutch and IMS was already starting to top 5K and that was in my 2nd month of ownership! The additional cost was a sprung clutch disk I needed for my light weight flywheel. I did get the L&N Dual row pro though next clutch ill consider the solution!

[Macca]

The Americans fight about ball bearing vs. roller bearing. 

100%, I was exhausted with reading and procrastinating. I purchased my 996 off a friend about 5 months ago. He replaced the OEM bearing (found to be in perfect nick) with a ceramic (old style LN - I am quite sure) about 3 years ago.  (80,000kms is the used by of that ceramic bearing). I bought the vertex bearing after owning the car for 3 weeks and its been staring at me from my desk on a daily basis. My indie will install the vertex next week. Will be interesting to see, but I wont be surprised if the ceramic is in perfect condition. Love the internet and the anxiety.  

 

[dan_189]

100%, I was exhausted with reading and procrastinating. I purchased my 996 off a friend about 5 months ago. He replaced the OEM bearing (found to be in perfect nick) with a ceramic (old style LN - I am quite sure) about 3 years ago.  (80,000kms is the used by of that ceramic bearing). I bought the vertex bearing after owning the car for 3 weeks and its been staring at me from my desk on a daily basis. My indie will install the vertex next week. Will be interesting to see, but I wont be surprised if the ceramic is in perfect condition. Love the internet and the anxiety.  

My head spins every time they start up the debate again! Especially when someones engine has blown up and they blame the bearing. I just get in my car and drive it, usually clears my head of all that... Oh and the fact I have the 2nd get LN bearing, that helps too  

[Coastr]

 IAM_911 (Ammar) from this forum did a fairly thorough investigation himself regarding the IMS, and installed his own solution, it's a very detailed thread and worth checking out

The GT3/GT2 and Turbo engines don't have an Intermediate Shaft (IMS), so no requirement for a bearing (the cam chains are on the same side as the earlier engines and gear driven, whereas the M96 have them on the other end, and the IMS transfers 'drive' to them) and it's fed by engine oil, so i guess they could say it's 'developed' from, it's a pretty long bow to draw on their behalf.

 

strictly speaking the mezger has one IMS and the m96 has two, one at either end.  911/930 engines have a IMS as well.  

[Macca]

. I just get in my car and drive it, usually clears my head of all that..

Amen,

[raafrebel]

I have 996 and I've asked around as well 

very rare occurrence and the only one my mechanic has ever seen was on a track car that was redlined every gear

i emailed Porsche when I was looking at mine a few years ago,  and they said not to worry unless u plan on racing 

if it was going to let go, it would have done by now

 

[dan_189]

When I enquired a few years ago I got told the same thing. I replaced it anyway not worth the risk the fix is a $1500 insurance policy