944 sale price

[Jason E]

@Jason E when are we seeing a thread...

Btw given your admission of driving at l00km/h a minty beige coloured 3spd 86 might have been a fitting choice 

soon my friend.   I have not had one second to scratch myself in the last 2 weeks but i will get there.

[TINGY]

What a depressing turn of conversation... I was enjoying myself, just warming to my subject. Do we *really* have to return to talking about 3-speed 2.5NAs?

Sorry mate, we can talk about whatever you want, oh bugger it, every other thread gets drifted off track why should this one be any different.

Speaking of auto's, i once drove an auto 968, lovely to drive, now that is a torque machine and felt so solid and planted on the road.

[Plugger2]

Speaking of auto's, i once drove an auto 968, lovely to drive, now that is a torque machine and felt so solid and planted on the road.

The 968 had the tiptronic auto, which was a huge improvement on the earlier automatic transmissions.

The extra power of the 968 head over the S2 is offset somewhat by the extra weight of the 968 over the S2. On the racetrack, it's a wash by most accounts.

My personal ideal is the 968/S2 hybrid: An S2 with a 968 engine and 6-speed manual transmission. The "S3" that never was.  (Plus the S2 just looks better. Although I would add the the 968 wing mirrors and door handles. )

[tazzieman]

A little help http://www.roguetuning.com/944_maf_kit_na-tune©

older thread http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-924-944-968-technical-forum/710961-rogue-tuning-na-tune-maf-conversion-944na.html

 

[michel]

Sorry mate, we can talk about whatever you want, oh bugger it, every other thread gets drifted off track why should this one be any different.

Speaking of auto's, i once drove an auto 968, lovely to drive, now that is a torque machine and felt so solid and planted on the road.

I once briefly  flirted with the idea of a forest green yippie tippie 964...

[Timm]

Here's an interesting thread of what it takes to get 400hp out of an N/A 16V 3L (in this case bored and stroked to 3.2L).

http://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-944-951-968-forum/628347-how-to-get-more-power-out-of-na-looking-for-400hp.html

Very cool build, I don't think any other N/A 944 has gotten close to those power figures before. Show's the potential that these engines do have.

Personally though, I am very much a fan of forced induction, but maybe I'm a bit biased ;-) My next engine build will be a 3L 16V turbo.

Stock for stock, even the early turbo has a higher peak torque at a lower rpm than the S2. Stock boost (~12psi) can be reached at around 3000rpm, which is excellent for spirited driving where you are always above that rpm anyway, and lag is negligible.

 

 

 

[Plugger2]

My next engine build will be a 3L 16V turbo.

Let me know when you do -- I've never driven a 3.0L turboed, and would be interested to try one out!

What are you planning to drop the compression to?

[OzJustin]

Here's an interesting thread of what it takes to get 400hp out of an N/A 16V 3L (in this case bored and stroked to 3.2L).

http://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-944-951-968-forum/628347-how-to-get-more-power-out-of-na-looking-for-400hp.html

Very cool build, I don't think any other N/A 944 has gotten close to those power figures before. Show's the potential that these engines do have.

Personally though, I am very much a fan of forced induction, but maybe I'm a bit biased ;-) My next engine build will be a 3L 16V turbo.

Stock for stock, even the early turbo has a higher peak torque at a lower rpm than the S2. Stock boost (~12psi) can be reached at around 3000rpm, which is excellent for spirited driving where you are always above that rpm anyway, and lag is negligible.

 

 

 

Thanks for digging up that Rennlist thread Timm. I knew I had read about a high output NA somewhere! If it's the car I'm thinking of it sounds mental at full noise (check youtube).

My NA pick is the S2 body with the 968 engine and 6 speed.

[Timm]

Let me know when you do -- I've never driven a 3.0L turboed, and would be interested to try one out!

What are you planning to drop the compression to?

It's going to be a long while till I get to that stage...I only just finished rebuilding my 2.5! Maybe in the next 3 or 4 years I will begin collecting parts for the 3L. In the mean time, there are a fair few other upgrades I want to do to my car first, including a new turbo and standalone ECU for the current engine.

Compression drop for the 3L would be down to somewhere between 8.5 and 9.5:1, depending on what sort of pistons I get my hands on.

I'm aiming for a pretty similar build to the Buchanan's car, except I would like to go with a full stand alone ecu, and probably a twin scroll turbo on a custom twin cross over pipe.

Thanks for digging up that Rennlist thread Timm. I knew I had read about a high output NA somewhere! If it's the car I'm thinking of it sounds mental at full noise (check youtube).

My NA pick is the S2 body with the 968 engine and 6 speed.

What a beast hey! Michael Mount certainly knows how to build a great engine.

This video is linked later on in the thread. It does sound quite good indeed.

 

[Rob]

 

Stock for stock, even the early turbo has a higher peak torque at a lower rpm than the S2. Stock boost (~12psi) can be reached at around 3000rpm, which is excellent for spirited driving where you are always above that rpm anyway, and lag is negligible.

 

 

 

I was a bit surprised to read Timm's statement about the torque delivery of the S2 and Turbo, so I went and dug my Owner's Manual out of the car and checked out the specs.  Note the the Turbo curves here are for the 250hp (180kW) version.  Timm is quite right in his assertion, no doubt backed up by his research too.  Anyone driving the S2 and Turbo back to back would declare the S2 to be "torquier", but the torque curves don't tell the full story.  Although the first four gear ratios are identical, the difference is in the diff . 

S2: 3.875:1

Turbo: 3.375:1

ie in gears 1-4, the S2 is about 15% lower geared than the Turbo, hence the perceived "torquiness", experienced as responsiveness.  If I recall correctly, Sean Buchanan put an S2 diff in his 3L Turbo, with dramatic results.  Don't know why Porsche chose that diff for the Turbo - for Oz the S2 ratio would be so much better.  BTW, I can state from first-hand experience that the older 220hp Turbo feels livelier than the 250hp down low because of the earlier spooling characteristics of the K26/6 VS. the later K26/8.  Timm might be able to post some curves from his 220hp manual.  If Pauly is still up, he might show us what a well-modified "220hp" does...

Here are some curves from my owner's manual...

[Timm]

Yes you are absolutely right Rob, the S2 box has that higher final drive ratio which no doubt makes it feel 'peppier' than a Turbo. I've experienced such a difference first hand with my old S13 Silvia when I went from a 3.9 diff to a 4.3. Slightly quicker acceleration and a torquey-er feel, but also more frequent gear shifts. I think many people have had good experiences with installing the S2 box into the turbo.

Not sure how accurate they are, but here are the power and torque curves from my manual.

What is evident in both of our dyno plots is how restrictive the whole intake and turbo system becomes at higher rpm's. You can really feel it when you are driving too. I have filmed my boost gauge during a wot run, and I get my max boost of 17psi before 3500, but after 4500 the k26 runs out of puff and boost starts decreasing to only 12 or 13 psi at redline. So for those running higher boost with a stock k26, there is a whole lot of power and torque to be gained in the top end by having a turbo and intake system that can maintain that boost to redline.

From what I've read, with a more modern turbo and engine management system with less restrictive intake, it is possible to get large gains in the top end without sacrificing any of the low end or spool characteristics. This is pretty much the goal I have for my 2.5L. From Refresh 951's early work:

 

[Plugger2]

No, you can't borrow my diff.

 

[brian in buddina]

 

I think it is less to due with the stock plumbing, up to a point, and more to due with the restrictions placed on the system by the stock wastegate & dme settings. A large potential gain in hp, up to a point, using the stock mechanicals by making some informed alterations to the waste gate and dme. refer to the attached link for how the system works.

http://www.clarks-garage.com/951faq.htm

[Timm]

Yeah the plumping is ok, but the k26 is simply too small and inefficient to maintain higher than stock boost into the upper rpms, even if you have a larger exhaust, shimmed wastegate and boost enhancer with the appropriate DME chips as I have. Once you have a bigger more efficient turbo that can hold a high boost to redline, then you need bigger injectors and then you may as well free up the restrictive intake piping by doing away with the j-boot and AFM and upgrading to at least one of the after market maf systems.

[Plugger2]

So, pivoting the conversation somewhat back to on-topic: What are people's thoughts on the effect of various mods on resale value? Obviously, the question is as wide ranging as the range of possible mods, from subtle to radical to outrageous. But for example, what do people think about the Turboed S2 on carsales for just under $100K?

A few years ago, I was seriously considering adding a supercharger to the S2, just because I thought it would be an interesting project. Ultimately, I was unhappy at how many compromises I'd have to make to the cars originality -- a fair amount of metal would have to be cut under the bonnet to make everything fit, and I just didn't feel comfortable with that.

The other thing that occurs to me is that a heavily modified vehicle is really a one-off, and something of an orphan, in the sense that the original owner who modified from stock may understand exactly what's going on, what the non-stock parts are, their spec, where to source the parts, etc., but the next owner has a real magical mystery tour to contend with.

Anyway, just throwing it out there. Thoughts on modding your own car, and on buying someone else's "project".

[Rob]

Plugger, I agree with your reluctance to commit to irreversible mods to your car - limits your potential buyer profile considerably.  My mods are all reversible: Rogue "A-Tune" chip, Fabspeed turbo-back 3" stainless exhaust (still have the original system), KWV3 suspension (still have the MO30).  After reading about Sean Buchanan's 3L Turbo, I was tempted to buy the WA S2 engine, but the thought of destroying the originality of the car overcame my enthusiasm for a project.  Sold my 968 several years ago for the same reason - wanted more go and the answer was turbo or supercharging and at the time the thinking was using a 2.7 8V head on the 3L block, rather than using the 16V 968 head as Sean and others have done recently.

On a side note, having some impure thoughts about Cayman S manuals - so stop talking them up!

Edited 23December, 2016 by Rob
"buy", not "but"

[Plugger2]

Plugger, I agree with your reluctance to commit to irreversible mods to your car - limits your potential buyer profile considerably.  My mods are all reversible: Rogue "A-Tune" chip, Fabspeed turbo-back 3" stainless exhaust (still have the original system), KWV3 suspension (still have the MO30).  After reading about Sean Buchanan's 3L Turbo, I was tempted to but the WA S2 engine, but the thought of destroying the originality of the car overcame my enthusiasm for a project.  Sold my 968 several years ago for the same reason - wanted more go and the answer was turbo or supercharging and at the time the thinking was using a 2.7 8V head on the 3L block, rather than using the 16V 968 head as Sean and others have done recently.

On a side note, having some impure thoughts about Cayman S manuals - so stop talking them up!

Yeah, I think that's one of the great things about the Turbo as a platform -- lots of entirely reversible hp mods. Not much to be done when it comes to the NAs.

So we agree that reversibility is the key, but what happens once you cross the Rubicon into serious project car territory -- turboing an NA, or even dropping in a V8! Obviously, you are never going to get your money back when it comes time to sell -- no-one thinks that -- but can you really ask $100K for a Turboed S2, for example, and expect to find a buyer at anywhere near that level? I suppose looking at the second hand market in track cars would yield some clues. I'm just not familiar with happens in that market.

On a side note, I'm flattered that you think my random, uneducated musings may have the power to move markets. Who do you think I am, Donald Trump?

[tazzieman]

- but can you really ask $100K for a Turboed S2, for example, and expect to find a buyer at anywhere near that level? I suppose looking at the second hand market in track cars would yield some clues. I'm just not familiar with happens in that market.

That sort of thing has been done , and has ended in tears. Mostly , these projects are vanity projects for people with either lots of time and/or money on their hands. Which greatly restricts the buying audience. And unless it's specced for rally regs , the cashed up to scratch the itch baby boomers will head for an MX5 or similar.

Usually $2 in $1 out - and possibly less if Her Indoors or Mr Mortgage says it must go now.

[TINGY]

On a side note, having some impure thoughts about Cayman S manuals - so stop talking them up!

Nothing impure about these Rob, so you would be selling the Audi then?

Plugger the S2 for $96k is probably one hell of a car, but, a very small market for one of these isn't it, this is probably a car that we would all like to build and even Tazzie would like to drive it i think

A guy off the forum, Corki944 has a supercharged 2.5 with a transplanted under carriage from an S2, it goes pretty well with power right across the rev range.

The good thing about buying someone else's project (if it's finished and running correctly) is the cost saving component but then you miss out on the fun? side of making the build your own.

That $96k car, i think a lot of guys would buy this but can't get their head around spending $96k for "just a 944". This car would probably make a GT3 run for cover.

If it hasn't got the engine behind or just in front of the rear axle, not many people want them.

Edited 23December, 2016 by TINGY944

[Plugger2]

Plugger the S2 for $96k is probably one hell of a car, but, a very small market for one of these isn't it, this is probably a car that we would all like to build and even Tazzie would like to drive it i think

The good thing about buying someone else's project (if it's finished and running correctly) is the cost saving component but then you miss out on the fun? side of making the build your own.

That $96k car, i think a lot of guys would buy this but can't get their head around spending $96k for "just a 944".

I think everyone here would agree it's a desirable car. The question is: How much is it worth?

Putting a number on it is hard, at least for me. I'm not sure there is any "cost saving" at that price -- unless you were considering getting Buchanans to do the work to build a similar car for you. As a DIY project you would have plenty of change from a $96K build budget, including the purchase of the car. And after all, none of this is rocket science. This type of conversion had been done many times now, and the roadmaps to follow are now well established.

And there is the "it's just a 944" problem. It's clearly an _exceptional_ 944, but it's still a 944 all the same. If it was a 968 Turbo RS or similar, perhaps even a Fitzgerald replica, no problem. The provenance and originality guarantees the resale value.

But everyone will have their own calculus, no doubt. At the end of the day, someone's going to buy it, and then we'll all know. Or not, more likely!

[Port 911]

Here's an interesting thread of what it takes to get 400hp out of an N/A 16V 3L (in this case bored and stroked to 3.2L).

http://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-944-951-968-forum/628347-how-to-get-more-power-out-of-na-looking-for-400hp.html

Very cool build, I don't think any other N/A 944 has gotten close to those power figures before. Show's the potential that these engines do have.

Personally though, I am very much a fan of forced induction, but maybe I'm a bit biased ;-) My next engine build will be a 3L 16V turbo.

Stock for stock, even the early turbo has a higher peak torque at a lower rpm than the S2. Stock boost (~12psi) can be reached at around 3000rpm, which is excellent for spirited driving where you are always above that rpm anyway, and lag is negligible.

 

 

 

So now I am putting my wish list together, starting with a DOHC cylinder head for my 2.5 n/a. I don't have a kidney I can sell so things may have to happen a little slower than I may have liked. Just getting over a scary moment given to me by a local Europe car specialist, that had the talk but not the knowledge.

Told me the 944 had a cracked head, not to drive it far or it will over heat. Turns out it had an oil cooler issue that had already been fixed, that had left some oil on the walls of the coolant tank. Coolant was perfect, oil was perfect, co2 check on the coolant, perfect. After I went searching even found the recipes for the oil cooler repair. Pays to take your car to someone that really does know what they are talking about, not just pissing in the wind.

[88mph]

The blue S that was on Carsales is gone.

Did anyone here buy it?

[Port 911]

Anyone spotted this one yet, 924 $$$$$$

https://www.carsales.com.au/dealer/details/_/OAG-AD-14142774?WT.seg_4=AutoAlert;PCAA

 

[TINGY]

This was covered in whats for sale thread, nice car and i like the color, price is optimistic.

The blue S that was on Carsales is gone.

Did anyone here buy it?

I wonder what the selling price was?

[Plugger2]

Here's another 1988 manual S

https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/_/SSE-AD-4471984

UK import, and body issues to boot. This can all be yours for $42,500.

I note the seller's name is Simon. Could that have anything to do with the somewhat optimistic valuation for a non-Aus delivered car I wonder?

Edit: And what's with the 144,000 miles vs "Only travelled 52545 km". Is that 52545 km since landing in Aus and having a km odo installed? That would make it a 311,000+ kms car!

I suspect Mum is going to have to put up with the three 944 S cars for some time yet...

Edited 4January, 2017 by Plugger2